2338 réponses à ce sujet

[McBeath]

I'll add my thought to this, in the most polite manner possible:

People really seem hung up on the "but I lost most of my squad in ME2, so I MUST get a new one for ME3!" concept. Rubbish. Mass effect had been a TRILOGY from day one. Yep, day one. So, they had an overall plot to the whole thing, which I'm sure was changed and fleshed out as new material came out, but overall it's Shepard's story. Not the story of 25+ different NPCs. Shepards. Period.

Mass effect 2 seemed very light on the Reaper plot, but really focused on us getting a team together. Earning thier loyalty. Why? Perhaps so that ME3 can really focus on the main threat, which is the Reapers, not merc bands and recruitment/loyalty missions.

Now, I hear the outcry "But my squadmates can die, so they must not be in ME3 as squadmates.". Yeah, that statement is true, but your Shepard can die to right? What happens then? Same with your squadmates. There is a reason that they left 2 people out of this game(ME2), clearly to save them for ME3.   Why does it matter that they can die?  Zaeed can die pretty much at any time, does that stop me from playing the game?  No, I just can't take him on missions.  Some other NPC will have 1-2 dialogs and the odd comment in battle instead of him.  Every character is interchangable in the standard missions, same with ME3.  I guess in your bad playthough you'll just hear a lot from Liara and Ash/Kaiden.  No big deal.

Perhaps they knew from the start that the DLC characters aren't gonna be in the final instalment, so if you loose them you gain 2 others, that way you can actually have a squad in ME3. Or maybe they just wanted to give you a few more options for team-mates even if you leave with only 2.  They did spend a lot of time redoing the games format so that ME3 would be easier.  I'm sure that they also thought ahead regarding the crew... or do we all expect to loose another Normandy and start from scratch?

My biggest point... why would they reward you for having a "bad" playthrough? Really, why? While you can import that save, why would you want to? I don't think that they'd create a game that spends several hours recruiting and gaining the loyalty of a team only to take them away at the end. Instead, if you do spend the time to gain thier loyalty you can be rewarded in ME3. Otherwise your punishment is playing on without them. Easy. Why poeple think that they'd take away our team(which most players love) just to cater to a few gamers in obsurd. Or that they'd reward a player for his terrable playthrough while punishing a person who really took the time to enjoy thier product. Not there style I don't think.

Tali is probibly the best example of this.... I don't know for sure whether she was always intended to be in ME3 as a squadie, or even LI. But you know what, BIOWARE listened to thier fans and made sure she was, because a huge number of poeple wanted her in the game. Same for this team, I'm sure. I won't be surprised if there is DLC to cure Thane either...

Regardless, we won't know for sure, but what I do know is that BIOWARE really does a great job on characters. Games I played 10 years ago had great characters I remember(like BG series), which for the most part were in it to the end. I feel the same will happen with this crew. I look forward to an ME3 that has 30 hours of gameplay vs the Reapers, not another 30 hours of getting a new team for a 1 hour suicide mission to save the galaxy. Fortunately, I think I'll get what I want. Cheers.

Modifié par McBeath, 13 août 2010 - 04:39 .

[McBeath]

SmokePants wrote...

BioWare has come up with a new cast of characters in every game they've made. It's what they do. Seriously -- they have writers and artists whose sole job it is to come up with that stuff. What would you have them do? Sit around and pat themselves on the back for making a million nerds get hopelessly attached to their creations? I don't think that would be a good use of project funding.

Actually not true... check out the Baldur's Gate trilogy, which is one of there best.  First game had a lot of characters that didn't make it into 2 as NPCs, but the third game had them all back.  Some of them were there from the first instalment right until the end.  Why this would be any different is beyond me.

[Zulu_DFA]

snfonseka wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How about this?



This ain't Photoshop, it's an actual screen shot taken post "suicide mission". The save file is perfectly importable for ME2 NG+, so I guess it's clear for ME3 import as well.

This is either doctored, or modded. You have to have at least 2 players with you. So If this is real, it was a modded game. Because the suicide mission is set up where you have at least two people. You can play without any squadmembers.

-Polite

It is fake, photoshopped probably. As you see 8 of the 12 (Zaheed, Legion, Mordin, Garrus, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, and Jack) have the loyalty "ring" under them showing that there loyal. There is no way you can lose with 8 loyal squadmates

Modded or not (it is with Gibbed's SE), it will be playable in ME3.

theelementslayer wrote...
you know that it makes sure that you cant have just one alive. Its two or none. Conicidence? I think not.

It's not. You can't continue playing ME2 without squadmates. You just get stuck in this Squad Selection screen, whenever you want to land/dock somewhere. But the game does not crash or anything. And I actually imported this save for NG+.

So the "Rule of 2" is there to continue playing unfinished missions and DLC after the "suicide mission". It has no bearing regarding ME3.

If ME3 program is written in following way... this save file will cause a game crash....

If (Shepard is survived){

1. Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file. <-- This statement will never complete its execution.
2. Load the selected characters information to ME3 character modules.
......
}
else If(Shepard is dead){
....
.....
}

So you cannot say how the save file loading will work. It will depend on the programing of the developer.

If Shepard is dead, the save file is not importable. Checked for ME2NG+.
If Shepard is alive, any post- "suicide mission" save file is importable, including the one with all squadmates dead. Checked for ME2NG+.

And this "Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file" screen is not gonna happen. Because it's totally redundant. The imported file already has full information about who lived and who died.

Why do you think BioWare would develop any content regarding the ME2 characters only to force the player to cut half of it at the start of ME3 for no reason?

In fact, what you say is: "Select which of the ME2 surviving characters were killed by a meteor in between games".

[Wittand25]

McBeath wrote...

SmokePants wrote...

BioWare has come up with a new cast of characters in every game they've made. It's what they do. Seriously -- they have writers and artists whose sole job it is to come up with that stuff. What would you have them do? Sit around and pat themselves on the back for making a million nerds get hopelessly attached to their creations? I don't think that would be a good use of project funding.

Actually not true... check out the Baldur's Gate trilogy, which is one of there best.  First game had a lot of characters that didn't make it into 2 as NPCs, but the third game had them all back.  Some of them were there from the first instalment right until the end.  Why this would be any different is beyond me.

Nearly every  possible team member of BG1 is in BG2 or at least mentioned in BG2 (the Paladin is in the Firkaang questline,the bard gets mentioned by the paladin guards, the druid is a villian,...). And there is no BG3 just an expansion to BG2. And incidentally the only teammember that can die a story death after joining you in BG2 does not come back in BG2:ToB.
The BG series are a bad example of continuity, considering how often you met NPCs that you could kil in BG.

[KingDan97]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If Shepard is dead, the save file is not importable. Checked for ME2NG+.
If Shepard is alive, any post- "suicide mission" save file is importable, including the one with all squadmates dead. Checked for ME2NG+.

And this "Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file" screen is not gonna happen. Because it's totally redundant. The imported file already has full information about who lived and who died.

Why do you think BioWare would develop any content regarding the ME2 characters only to force the player to cut half of it at the start of ME3 for no reason?

In fact, what you say is: "Select which of the ME2 surviving characters were killed by a meteor in between games".

Bioware's stance on modders for ME3 is the same for ME2. If you modded your game, and it doesn't work. It's your own damned fault and we'll do nothing to fix the problems you made for yourself.

He's presenting a scenario that can only occur if you cheat, a group that Bioware doesn't even pretend to take accountability for...

[RiouHotaru]

Indeed. It's why Bioware fixed the infinite point glitch for Shepard with the update. Because it could potentially cause issues for those saves in ME3. Modding your file doesn't prove anything Zulu. It's very likely your "save" will be rendered unusuable, or will cause issues with your game. (Like freezing at Squad Select)



If this happens to you when you try to import to ME3, the only one you can blame is yourself.

[Chuvvy]

inb4 squad comprised solely of LIs. And I have to choose my other squadmate based on who I loath the least.



At least Garrus was an LI, so he'll be back

[RiouHotaru]

Also, to any who really thinks Bioware would have a "logistical nightmare" incorporating the entire squad in ME3, I have one thing to say:



Easier than you think.



You forget, ME3 isn't going to overhaul the series, so the graphics, character designs, and VAs will likely ALL remain the same, and it's easy tor record dialogue lines, just look at ALL the cut dialogue present in ME2. So resources aren't the issue. Time is also not an issue. Since they aren't revamping the whole thing from the ground up, it's easy for them to use existing models and textures all over again, perhaps with a few tweaks to reflect changes in certain characters (like scars and the like).



Also, determining what characters are alive or dead is NOT an issue. If you edit ME2 on the PC, you have characters with meaningful dialogues and interactions LONG before you could ever recruit them, meaning the events were originally programmed into the game and simply never activated because the character needed is never present. But it's all STILL THERE. Therefore, the ability to come with the massive number of variations isn't an issue either.



As for "catering to new gamers" people who didn't play ME1 are likely confused as to who Garrus is and why you know him so well (Default Shepard DID recruit Garrus) and there's the Horizon confrontation, which even for newcomers would make NO sense (because they didn't play ME1 they lack the context for that confrontation). Hell, several conversations pretaining to ME1 would make no sense to newcomers because they lack context. Therefore, starting ME3 with a bunch of people wouldn't matter too much, likely ALL the characters would have dialogue trees explaining why they were there and about them personally as a recap. ME2 did the same thing after all.



It's not "baseless" to assume they'll bring everyone back.

[JJ Long]

There are a limited number of ME2 crew members that could possibly return anyway.



I believe that Samara, Mordin, Grunt, Jack, Zaeed, Kasumi, Legion, and Thane all have definite possible reasons to no longer be serving with Shepard.



Tali could possibly be with the Quarians, although the standard choice would most likely be her having been exiled. And they changed her name to Vas Normandy no matter what, if she survives it is very possible that she returns as a crew member.



I don't see any real reason for Garrus, Miranda, or Jacob to have left Shepard's side if they survived.



4 out of 12 is not that bad to have alternates for.

[snfonseka]

Double post.... sorry! :innocent:

Modifié par snfonseka, 13 août 2010 - 08:55 .

[snfonseka]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

theelementslayer wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

How about this?



This ain't Photoshop, it's an actual screen shot taken post "suicide mission". The save file is perfectly importable for ME2 NG+, so I guess it's clear for ME3 import as well.

This is either doctored, or modded. You have to have at least 2 players with you. So If this is real, it was a modded game. Because the suicide mission is set up where you have at least two people. You can play without any squadmembers.

-Polite

It is fake, photoshopped probably. As you see 8 of the 12 (Zaheed, Legion, Mordin, Garrus, Miranda, Jacob, Thane, and Jack) have the loyalty "ring" under them showing that there loyal. There is no way you can lose with 8 loyal squadmates

Modded or not (it is with Gibbed's SE), it will be playable in ME3.

theelementslayer wrote...
you know that it makes sure that you cant have just one alive. Its two or none. Conicidence? I think not.

It's not. You can't continue playing ME2 without squadmates. You just get stuck in this Squad Selection screen, whenever you want to land/dock somewhere. But the game does not crash or anything. And I actually imported this save for NG+.

So the "Rule of 2" is there to continue playing unfinished missions and DLC after the "suicide mission". It has no bearing regarding ME3.

If ME3 program is written in following way... this save file will cause a game crash....

If (Shepard is survived){

1. Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file. <-- This statement will never complete its execution.
2. Load the selected characters information to ME3 character modules.
......
}
else If(Shepard is dead){
....
.....
}

So you cannot say how the save file loading will work. It will depend on the programing of the developer.

If Shepard is dead, the save file is not importable. Checked for ME2NG+.
If Shepard is alive, any post- "suicide mission" save file is importable, including the one with all squadmates dead. Checked for ME2NG+.

And this "Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file" screen is not gonna happen. Because it's totally redundant. The imported file already has full information about who lived and who died.

Why do you think BioWare would develop any content regarding the ME2 characters only to force the player to cut half of it at the start of ME3 for no reason?

In fact, what you say is: "Select which of the ME2 surviving characters were killed by a meteor in between games".

At least read my full comments..... I said "If ME3 program is written in following way" ---- not that the game will give you a screen to select squadmates. That would be stupid because as you already mentioned "The imported file already has full information about who lived and who died". What I have mentioned about the "coding of the game", not about some in-game interfaces.

I am saying this again....you cannot predict the way how the program code works. It is depend on the way how the developer write the code of that program; where I have tried to show, one of the possible flows of that program code. So if the program validates who are the remaining squadmates while "Shepard is alive", then your modified save file will cause problems (again... NOT TALKING ABOUT A SCREEN)

I really don't get how do you get the idea of "Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file" screen, because I never mentioned about a "screen"....

So you have answered for something, I didn't even mention....<_<.

Modifié par snfonseka, 13 août 2010 - 08:52 .

[JohnnyBeGood2]

snfonseka wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
How about this?

I am saying this again....you cannot predict the way how the program code works. It is depend on the way how the developer write the code of that program; where I have tried to show, one of the possible flows of that program code. So if the program validates who are the remaining squadmates while "Shepard is alive", then your modified save file will cause problems (again... NOT TALKING ABOUT A SCREEN)

I really don't get how do you get the idea of "Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file" screen, because I never mentioned about a "screen"....

So you have answered for something, I didn't even mention....<_<.

Zulu, thanks for using a hacked saved game to prove your point. Dare I say, it's pretty close to your hack arguments to prove your points as well.

Youre reasoning is getting close to ludicrous on why "that will be importable to ME3" of course it bloody won't if it's hacked and doesn't meet the minimum implied requirement.

C'mon pal, the rewrite spam and walls of text in every single one of your posts is one thing but this is beyond a joke...

Modifié par JohnnyBeGood2, 13 août 2010 - 09:01 .

[Wittand25]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Also, to any who really thinks Bioware would have a "logistical nightmare" incorporating the entire squad in ME3, I have one thing to say:

Easier than you think.

You forget, ME3 isn't going to overhaul the series, so the graphics, character designs, and VAs will likely ALL remain the same, and it's easy tor record dialogue lines, just look at ALL the cut dialogue present in ME2. So resources aren't the issue. Time is also not an issue. Since they aren't revamping the whole thing from the ground up, it's easy for them to use existing models and textures all over again, perhaps with a few tweaks to reflect changes in certain characters (like scars and the like).

Also, determining what characters are alive or dead is NOT an issue. If you edit ME2 on the PC, you have characters with meaningful dialogues and interactions LONG before you could ever recruit them, meaning the events were originally programmed into the game and simply never activated because the character needed is never present. But it's all STILL THERE. Therefore, the ability to come with the massive number of variations isn't an issue either.

As for "catering to new gamers" people who didn't play ME1 are likely confused as to who Garrus is and why you know him so well (Default Shepard DID recruit Garrus) and there's the Horizon confrontation, which even for newcomers would make NO sense (because they didn't play ME1 they lack the context for that confrontation). Hell, several conversations pretaining to ME1 would make no sense to newcomers because they lack context. Therefore, starting ME3 with a bunch of people wouldn't matter too much, likely ALL the characters would have dialogue trees explaining why they were there and about them personally as a recap. ME2 did the same thing after all.

It's not "baseless" to assume they'll bring everyone back.

Providing interesting dialog on board of the Normandy and personal backstories for all the squadmembers in ME3 is a nightmare from the writing point of view. It is doable for one or two maybe, but for twelve (not counting the guarantied and required new squadmates) characters coming up with something worth saying to Shepard is practically impossible. Also the extensive squadsize is not needed in ME3. It was required for ME2 because for every specialist role during the suicide mission you needed two competent members (otherwise there is no choice) and at least one not so competent (otherwise there is no wrong choice). Even in ME2 you can see the consequences of having too many squadmates because they ran out of dialog pretty fast. For a even bigger group the limitations on time,money and disk-space would reduce the dialog even further so that there would be barely anything worth talking about (Compare the amount of NPCs and the player interaction with them in BG to those in BG2).
Another thing is that providing content for all the squadmates creates the problem of either having the default outcome of everybody survives and cheapening the effort of every player of ME2 or having some default dead squadmembers, whose content could not be accessed by the majority of players,because most casual gamers wont bother to keep safegames and/or don't play the game often enough to have a safegame in which everybody survives. And like it or not the casual gamers are the majority of players, not us hardcore forum members. Sure in an ideal world all the old squadmates would come back and some new ones would be added but considering with all the limitations it would be bad resource management to spend too much effort on the squadmates of ME2.
Personally I would rather see them in ME3 as well written cameos than as squadmembers with little and uninteresting dialog.
Also there is no meaningful dialog cut, that I am aware of. Just the usual squad comments that are not used because the structure of the game changed after the recording of the lines. Nothing the size of an fully developed character anyway.

[Zulu_DFA]

KingDan97 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

If Shepard is dead, the save file is not importable. Checked for ME2NG+.
If Shepard is alive, any post- "suicide mission" save file is importable, including the one with all squadmates dead. Checked for ME2NG+.

And this "Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file" screen is not gonna happen. Because it's totally redundant. The imported file already has full information about who lived and who died.

Why do you think BioWare would develop any content regarding the ME2 characters only to force the player to cut half of it at the start of ME3 for no reason?

In fact, what you say is: "Select which of the ME2 surviving characters were killed by a meteor in between games".

Bioware's stance on modders for ME3 is the same for ME2. If you modded your game, and it doesn't work. It's your own damned fault and we'll do nothing to fix the problems you made for yourself.

He's presenting a scenario that can only occur if you cheat, a group that Bioware doesn't even pretend to take accountability for...

Right. And for this very reason BioWare won't go hunting all possible cheats to punish those people who used it. They just say: do it at your own risk. Using glitches in ME1 did spoil import files. Console commands did not.

This "cheat" of mine clearly shows how the system works: it's just flags and chunks of content. Conrad dead? No Conrad in ME2. Wrex dead or not recruited? Wreav calls the shots at the Urdnots'. So it will be in ME3. There will be 13 chunks of content associated with each ME2 squadmate, as well as maybe some other killable NPCs. Be it a cameo, or a DLC, or an e-mail. Character flagged as alive? Fine, you get this their chunk. Flagged as dead / not recruited, you get no chunk or an alternate chunk of content. But these chunks are really small and completely optional, detachable. That's why no ME2 squadmate wll have any significant (let alone essential) part in ME3, except maybe Legion, but I pity the writer who'll have to account for all possible fates of the poor robot.

Personally, I have no interest in importing this "all dead" save into ME3. But if I or anybody tries to import it (if only out of curiosity -- check the "Ultimate Guide" thread, there was a person who expressed such a curiosity, and it was why I initially did it), I'm 100% certain that it will perfectly work, you just won't access the 13 chunks of optional content and will still be able to win the game. This is not my "proof" or "source", or "evidence". It's just an illustration of how the game works.

[Sapienti]

Luc0s wrote...



This is not true. If you actually followed the production of ME2 you realized that they had to do a lot of stuff all over again because the ME1 graphics where already outdated again when they where working on ME2. At first they just wanted to use the ME1-models from Garrus and Tali for ME2, but they looked outdated compared to the new ME2 squad members, so they had to model and re-texture Garrus and Tali all over again for ME2. Why do you think this will not be the case of ME3? I bet at the time BioWare actually starts with the production of ME3 (building the actual game after the designing is finished), the ME2 graphics are already outdated yet again and ME3 will yet again have new, even better looking models and textures.


This doesn't proof anything. The massive numbers of variations in ME2 is not even nearly as gigantic as the insane numbers of variations needed for ME3 if they want to bring back surviving squad members from ME2 or replace them with place-holders if they're death.


This is somewhat true. A friend of mine never played ME1, yet he started playing ME2 a while ago. I asked him if he understood the story and the characters and everything and he said he had no problem understanding the story of ME2 at all. He didn't need to guess that Tali and Garrus where Shepard's companions in the previous games, neither did he wonder who Ashley was. It all made sense to him even though he never played ME1.
However, we're talking about just 5 (or 4, if Wrex is death) squad members from ME1 that made an appearance in ME2, where only 2 of them became squad members again. But ME2 had TWELVE squad members. You can't expect all 12 would return in ME3, even as cameos. It would be insane to suggest that all (or even most of them) will become squad members again in ME3.


It is baseless to assume they'll bring everyone back. It's actually insane to assume they'll bring everyone back.

See here goes that odd logic again. You aren't being a realist when you say stuff like that, you're not even being pessimistic you're just being close minded. You're convincing yourself that things are un reasonable or impossible simply because you think they are, you haven't even really thought about it from Bioware's standpoint because you can't.

First off, there was a big gap between ME1 to ME2. They said themselves the gap between ME3 would be smaller because they've updated the graphics to a point they're comfortable with, they don't have to fix issues like texture popping for example. You can't use the low budget ME1 to ME2 as an example of the future. There are just too many variables. Its just as reasonable to assume Bioware wants to bring back characters and therefore wont up any models too much so that old ones look out dated as it is to assume they wont bring back characters because they'll look out dated.

Onto variables. What are you thinking of when you're talking about massive variables? Because really it sounds like dialogue and that is something that can be taken care with planning ahead. Which is likely something they did from the inception of ME2. When they did ME1 they weren't really thinking far ahead with every last choice made, you can tell because a lot of things were carried over through cheap e-mails, like what you get from the Asari consort or from other choices that seemed like they could/should have had a bigger impact. That isn't something you should expect from the sequels. They seem to be going in to ME3 with the mindset that players out there are going to be making all sorts of different choices, how are those variables going to be more important than the variables of a squad? Sure things get complicated, but who are we to say what Bioware is realistically capable of? We simply don't know what is difficult or easy for them until they say so. Assuming in their stead is simply seems arrogant. Sure its safe to assume its not an easy task, but calling anyone who thinks its a possibility insane just seems a tad bit obnoxious lol. They don't need a place holder for every dead member, just a default party for people who killed their whole squad and room for any characters they decide to make playable again whether it be all, most, or a few of the old ME2 characters.

Also, it doesn't require a lot of work to record one liner/seemingly meaningful quips lines like that for a cast of 12-16 playable characters in every possible combination they could simplify their work by taking away lines from certain characters at certain points and make the fall back voice Shepard's or even EDI's or nothing at all.

You say its insane to think that characters (whether it be most or all or otherwise) returning would be insane because of new comers. Have you ever played another long going series with a continuing storyline? Hell, go play a game based off another series. Arkham Asylum is a good example, a ton of characters that the player probably never even heard of. Know what they did there? Gave you some background so you understood what/who a character was. Giving background to a character ins't difficult at all. They can toss biographies into the codex and drop lines in the game to fill in gaps. Replacing a character just because new comers might not know who they are would be the insane thing. Play Metal Gear Solid 4 after not playing any of the old games and then tell me you think it would be better if they replaced all of the characters with new ones. It wouldn't, it reall makes no sense in that regard now that I think about it. Can't have a dramatic storyline when you just toss out old characters and cycle in some new ones to fill the gaps, its not really good story telling for one.

Something is only baseless when you don't back it up.

Where do I stand? I think Bioware can go either way, and either way can be interesting in its own way. An all new squad would b awesome because that means we'll probably even see some new alien species and get to go deeper into the culture of the races in Mass Effect. Bringing back old characters and adding a few new ones, or most of the old and some new characters would also be really cool. Getting to go with your old squad, rewarded for keeping them alive and what not. Characters as on ship crew members would also be cool with me so long as they get dialogue trees like squad mates. Lastly, I don't see them dropping any of the love interests at all seeing as how they put so much work into them. And doesn't the game say something to the effect of "work on your love interests for ME3" or something like that after you beat the game and have the option to continue flying around your current save before starting a new one?

[Sapienti]

Zulu_DFA wrote...



Right. And for this very reason BioWare won't go hunting all possible cheats to punish those people who used it. They just say: do it at your own risk. Using glitches in ME1 did spoil import files. Console commands did not.

This "cheat" of mine clearly shows how the system works: it's just flags and chunks of content. Conrad dead? No Conrad in ME2. Wrex dead or not recruited? Wreav calls the shots at the Urdnots'. So it will be in ME3. There will be 13 chunks of content associated with each ME2 squadmate, as well as maybe some other killable NPCs. Be it a cameo, or a DLC, or an e-mail. Character flagged as alive? Fine, you get this their chunk. Flagged as dead / not recruited, you get no chunk or an alternate chunk of content. But these chunks are really small and completely optional, detachable. That's why no ME2 squadmate wll have any significant (let alone essential) part in ME3, except maybe Legion, but I pity the writer who'll have to account for all possible fates of the poor robot.

Personally, I have no interest in importing this "all dead" save into ME3. But if I or anybody tries to import it (if only out of curiosity -- check the "Ultimate Guide" thread, there was a person who expressed such a curiosity, and it was why I initially did it), I'm 100% certain that it will perfectly work, you just won't access the 13 chunks of optional content and will still be able to win the game. This is not my "proof" or "source", or "evidence". It's just an illustration of how the game works.

If you didn't notice, almost no squad mates in ME2 had a significant role in ME2. When you look at it as going against the collectors and completing the mission, the only characters you see in the important story progressing cut scenes are Mordin, Jacob, and Miranda when they talk to the Illusive Man. The other members all have implied importance. They're only as important as a person makes them. They can continue to be insignificant in ME3 if Bioware chose to make it so. Only allowing a character to shine in a personal mission or as an easter egg like source of dialogue (like taking Legion on Tali's mission). The most significant things squad members have are dialogue trees, and those aren't really complicated to make regardless of the fact that some people may never hear them.

People make the assumption that squad members are important, but they simply aren't. Not so far in the Mass Effect series anyway. Using that train of logic, they could bring back all 12 characters from ME2, make 12 more for ME3 and they would all seem just as important as the other. Toss in a suicide mission style multi squad mission and bam you have everyone feeling like they're play Lost or something.

[SmokePants]

Some of us are confident that the 2/12 "guaranteed" survivors will not matter to ME3 and that each ME2 squad member will be handled in an individual, isolated bubble -- a bubble which may be popped. And even if they do count on 2 survivors, they're just going to let you crash the game. They don't care/ they can't handle every possible way to crash the game by altering save files. "Proceed at your own risk." Plus, if you can't slip the alterations past the import, you can theoretically change the save file variables at any point, even while the game is running. So, even if they check the validity of the data every time the game loads, that's still not going to prevent this little experiment.

And like I said before, my bet is that it doesn't hurt the game at all.

Modifié par SmokePants, 13 août 2010 - 12:36 .

[smudboy]

Sapienti wrote...
If you didn't notice, almost no squad mates in ME2 had a significant role in ME2. When you look at it as going against the collectors and completing the mission, the only characters you see in the important story progressing cut scenes are Mordin, Jacob, and Miranda when they talk to the Illusive Man. The other members all have implied importance. They're only as important as a person makes them. They can continue to be insignificant in ME3 if Bioware chose to make it so. Only allowing a character to shine in a personal mission or as an easter egg like source of dialogue (like taking Legion on Tali's mission). The most significant things squad members have are dialogue trees, and those aren't really complicated to make regardless of the fact that some people may never hear them.

People make the assumption that squad members are important, but they simply aren't. Not so far in the Mass Effect series anyway. Using that train of logic, they could bring back all 12 characters from ME2, make 12 more for ME3 and they would all seem just as important as the other. Toss in a suicide mission style multi squad mission and bam you have everyone feeling like they're play Lost or something.

Oh, Zulu is very well aware.

But just because BioWare can do fluff, doesn't mean it's a good idea, especially when this fluff might not even be available to all players, and that's a lot of fluff to cover.  We know Mordin is the only plot essential character.  So why would ME3, which we would like to think is going to be mostly focused on the main plot, suddenly have a variable fluffy team of 12?  The only way this might be done right is if it's extremely complicated, with 12 or so fluffy squadmate placeholders.  With ME1, every squadmate played a plot role aside from Garrus and Wrex, and only two came back as squadmates (both non-killable and non-love interests.)

It is very much a logsitical nightmare to have fully fledged squadmate placeholders.  It is, however, believable, if everyone gets reduced to mere functional squadmates, with little to no plot or storytelling elements.  But that's not how we know BioWare's characters to be.  (These are two extremes.)

For simplicity, and still quite a lot of work, cameo's seem the most believable, and on par with how BioWare deals with characters in sequels.

[Boombox]

I think Sapienti makes some very good points! I would love for Bioware to include atleast half of the ME2 squadmates, Ash/Kaidan, Liara and mix it up with a few new ones. I think it's totally possible but of course it'll be a lot easier just to make a whole new squad.. So fingers crossed..

[Zulu_DFA]

Sapienti wrote...

People make the assumption that squad members are important, but they simply aren't.

You know, why the squad members were not important in ME2? Because it's a filler episode. BioWare just understood that they couldn't take all the weight of the BIG CHOICES branching out over the course of the whole trilogy, that they would be unable to make all loose ends meet in ME3, if ME2 had a heavy impact on the main plot of the trilogy. So they made ME2 to be a game about squadmates.

ME3 has to conclude the main story, and lots of subplots, and not only those involving the ME2 squadmates, LIs and so on. And besides all that, it has to be a complete stand alone story, that involves introduction of a new enemy, main antagoist, a couple of twists, revelations and so on. Sure this leaves not much time for "recruitment missions", but that's the argument against ME2 squadmates as well. BioWare can and will come up with multiple reasons for every one of them "to leave", and Shepard will have to recruit characters for his team anew. Along the main plot line, to which the ME2 squadmates can't have any relation.

That said, I do think, that some ME2 squadmates will be recruitable (Garrus and Tali probably). But not in the default scenario and they will not be on the ME3 disk. They will be Zaeed-like DLC. Included exclusively in the Collector's Edition.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 août 2010 - 03:03 .

[snfonseka]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

snfonseka wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
How about this?

I am saying this again....you cannot predict the way how the program code works. It is depend on the way how the developer write the code of that program; where I have tried to show, one of the possible flows of that program code. So if the program validates who are the remaining squadmates while "Shepard is alive", then your modified save file will cause problems (again... NOT TALKING ABOUT A SCREEN)

I really don't get how do you get the idea of "Select the surviving characters from ME2 save file" screen, because I never mentioned about a "screen"....

So you have answered for something, I didn't even mention....<_<.

Zulu, thanks for using a hacked saved game to prove your point. Dare I say, it's pretty close to your hack arguments to prove your points as well.

Youre reasoning is getting close to ludicrous on why "that will be importable to ME3" of course it bloody won't if it's hacked and doesn't meet the minimum implied requirement.

C'mon pal, the rewrite spam and walls of text in every single one of your posts is one thing but this is beyond a joke...

Some people think that their ideas are absolutly correct (even without any facts)... All we can do give them a logical reasons where that ideas go wrong. It up to them to read and understand what the we try to say. We cannot make them to do so.....

We can only show them the door. They are the one that have to walk through it.

[SmokePants]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

That said, I do think, that some ME2 squadmates will be recruitable (Garrus and Tali probably). But not in the default scenario and they will not be on the ME3 disk. They will be Zaeed-like DLC. Included exclusively in the Collector's Edition.

I suspect that would do more to tick people off than to appease them. And even characters like Zaeed and Kasumi are more work than people think. My view is that they either do it right or don't do it at all and there's really no feasible way of doing it right.

Modifié par SmokePants, 13 août 2010 - 02:17 .

[McBeath]

Casey Hudson has even admitted that they use data collected when we log online to make decisions like this. For example, if nobody completed a certain quest I bet we'll see an email in ME3, nothing more. But if everybody completes it in all thier playthroughts it's likely to be mentioned. The writers use this info to decide what avenues the side stories take. Same with characters. If everybody keeps Tali then she'll be in ME3. Same with Lawson(they may have a contract with her voice actor, so that may indeed guarentee her in 3).

From a recent article on ME2 and ME3:
"Hudson said that Bioware wouldn't be reinventing its action-RPG approach with the third game - which the studio has already started work on."  -> so we can assume that they've begun that task of scripting the plot points out.  Add that Christina Norman was asking players for feedback on the heavy weapons gameplay for tweeking. 

From a different article:
"Speaking to CVG in London yesterday, Muzyka wasn't keen to discuss comments made earlier this month that the third game could arrive as soon as late 2011." -> The timetable for the third is not far off.  They have no plans to change the engine or gameplay significantly, they have admitted as much.  I doubt they'll invest MORE MONEY and time(which face it, is money) to add a new cast of characters when they have a nice amount of different ones already.  Why waste resources when they can just leave the characters we have and focus on plot and DLC(which is a cash cow)?  It's just a good business decision.

People seem to forget that BIOWARE is a business, and as such there first priority is to turn a profit.  They do this by catering to the wants/needs of a consumer base.

So, if 95% of the customer base wants to see the "whole team back", and only 5% want to get new characters(or 95% had a full survival playthrough/5% killed crew) who do you think they'll cater too? It's pretty simple business to me.

If people don't get that concept then I truly hope that they never become CEO's of the companies that I hold stocks in...

Modifié par McBeath, 13 août 2010 - 02:38 .

[theelementslayer]

McBeath, I applaud you on your very well thought out points, however myself, and Polite have been saying the same things for awhile and really your going to start fighting an uphill battle. These people dont need proof or reasoning, they just think they are right because they just think so. So goodluck and well, I agree with your posts