2338 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Yeti13 wrote...

or they could all live?

Exactly.

Do you understand what this means?

[Harley_Dude]

A lot of the arguments assume there will be 12 characters in ME3. If a person was new to ME3 or had no DLC in ME2 then you have 10 characters. If ME3 starts the game with Liara and Ashley/Kaiden then we have a max of 8 that can be brought forward. A few ME2 characters can easily be resurrected such as Miranda's sister or a copy of Legion. There is also the possibility of haiving a fallout with remaining members and having to replace them with new recruits. Jack could be easily written off this way. This is similar to what DAO did when Alistair was replaced by Loghain.

[Hedera]

I think that if you keep them all alive, they all stay alive and with you. It may not seem efficient, but why would they even bring Zaeed and Kasumi into the story if they get shafted in the very next game? Further, too many of them have deep story connections. I think letting them die in the suicide mission could have dire implications on the easiness/difficulty of rallying people behind you for the final fight against the reapers. A kind of "I'll never listen to you unless Legion is behind you" thing from the Geth and such. Further, Loyalty may play into it, and disloyal squad members who survive may die between games. But that's all speculation.

[McBeath]

smudboy wrote...

Yeti13 wrote...

Now that u mention it what happened to polite assassin and when did this topic turn into a coding war? I agree with Macbeth, BW will cater to the fans and want to give u a reason to go back and play (not to mention buy) ME1 and ME2, If the characters carry over the newcomers would want to go back and learn their history's, what makes them tick. And for the people saying that most of the characters are not plot relevant, think about it:

Mordin could possibly hold the cure for the genophage
Tali and Legion could finnaly end the war between the Quarians
some like Zaeed and Kasumi don't have those major universe related things about them but if you earned thier loyalty i cant imagine them running off when they know the Reapers are coming.

They can all die.

Think about it.

What's easier/likely:

1- They can all die.  So as a company Bioware will invest in all new characters, just to cover that eventuality.  All other NPC's from previous games will get cameo/non squad roles.  As a company they are concerned with getting the most out of thier intangable static resources, and not satisfying the players.

2- They can all die.  Since we are likely to have Virmire survivor/Liara, that gives us a potential 2 squadmates + Shepard, which is playable in the current game engine(and I would guess ME3).  Not having any of the other 12 characters simply means you won't have acess to thier abilities and dialog options.  The ability to play through that game is uneffected, though it wouldn't be as "fun".  I would imagine Liara and Virmire will be scripted in such a way that they provide all of the important cut scene dialog, ect.  Also, "canon" import(not having played previous games) gives the new player a full crew and assumes that canon Shepard got the job done with no deaths.

Personally, I think it'll be number 2.  It just makes more sence.  The concept of "getting the most out of thier static resources" is irrelevent.  IF you want to play through that way go ahead, enjoy the experience of having killed/lost most of your team.  That's why it's there.  IF you do the work to experience your heroic team surviving the second game you'll get REWARDED for that, not PUNISHED.  Simple.  As for coding them into the game, isn't it more work(from a man hour perspective) to not only voice/animate a new team AND the old one(cause you need to have 10-12 from ME2) for thier cameo's?


As for the comment regarding 90% of people who wanted a smaller team, ok.  You have that ability now.  Bioware's research isn't limited to this forum, or indeed any forum.  They use the info gathered from our saved games while we are on the Cerberus Network to determine what people did, and who lived through the saves.  That will play the biggest factor in the next game.  They spent so much time on ME2 because they knew it would lead right into ME3, gameplay, NPC, and story wise.  The investment in characters was done to ease the transition into ME3, and provide a more cost effective game(by not paying the artists, conceptual designers for the long hours needed to invent a whole knew set of NPCS). 

Just my thoughts though.  Also, is it really necessary to be rude or is that just in some peoples nature?  Can't we just have a civil exchange of ideas and wait until Bioware releases thier product, which honestly is all we can do.

Modifié par McBeath, 13 août 2010 - 05:49 .

[Harley_Dude]

I felt Miranda, Tali, Legion and Mordin had the most carryover potential. Garrus and Grunt maybe. Jacob, Jack, Thane, Samara/Morinth, Zaeed and Kasumi I think they will be written out. Let's face it, we all want to recruit a biotic god Volus.

[Wittand25]

McBeath wrote...
What's easier/likely:

1- They can all die.  So as a company Bioware will invest in all new characters, just to cover that eventuality.  All other NPC's from previous games will get cameo/non squad roles.  As a company they are concerned with getting the most out of thier intangable static resources, and not satisfying the players.

If a cameo is done right it does neither cheapen the character or is an disappointment for the players. I never heard of anyone disappointed by the Wrex-cameo because it was done right, most are disappointed by the VS cameo because that one simply was not good.

2- They can all die.  Since we are likely to have Virmire survivor/Liara, that gives us a potential 2 squadmates + Shepard, which is playable in the current game engine(and I would guess ME3).  Not having any of the other 12 characters simply means you won't have acess to thier abilities and dialog options.  The ability to play through that game is uneffected, though it wouldn't be as "fun".  I would imagine Liara and Virmire will be scripted in such a way that they provide all of the important cut scene dialog, ect.  Also, "canon" import(not having played previous games) gives the new player a full crew and assumes that canon Shepard got the job done with no deaths.

Playing the game with just three biotics sounds like fun. In all seriousness though the game needs to be winnable for every legal import, so you need more new crewmembers besides the VS and Liara. Making the standard import file an everybody survived scenario would just be a giant F.U. for everybody who played ME2. Those without a perfect safe get a harder time playing and those with a perfect safe get told that their effort was pointless because everybody gets the same benefits.

Personally, I think it'll be number 2.  It just makes more sence.  The concept of "getting the most out of thier static resources" is irrelevent.  IF you want to play through that way go ahead, enjoy the experience of having killed/lost most of your team.  That's why it's there.  IF you do the work to experience your heroic team surviving the second game you'll get REWARDED for that, not PUNISHED.  Simple.  As for coding them into the game, isn't it more work(from a man hour perspective) to not only voice/animate a new team AND the old one(cause you need to have 10-12 from ME2) for thier cameo's?

A cameo is exactly that a reward for those with a safegame, while those without do not miss out on significant content. Also a cameo is much easier to produce than a full squadmember because Bioware has better control over the situation.Sure a new team and cameos is more work but every player can access nearly all the content resulting from that work, not like putting all the work into squadmembers that require a player to invest 40 hours into ME2 just to experience them in ME3.

As for the comment regarding 90% of people who wanted a smaller team, ok.  You have that ability now.  Bioware's research isn't limited to this forum, or indeed any forum.  They use the info gathered from our saved games while we are on the Cerberus Network to determine what people did, and who lived through the saves.  That will play the biggest factor in the next game.  They spent so much time on ME2 because they knew it would lead right into ME3, gameplay, NPC, and story wise.  The investment in characters was done to ease the transition into ME3, and provide a more cost effective game(by not paying the artists, conceptual designers for the long hours needed to invent a whole knew set of NPCS). 

ME2 was very disconnected from the main story line of the reapers, basically nothing more than a small fray on the sideline,but that is personal opinion. It has also been stated that every ME game is supposed to work as single game too. That means that no ME2 does not set everything up for ME3. There are some hints about future plotlines and some situations that allow the player to take influence in them, but ME3 will be play- and fully understandable even if you know nothing about ME2.

Just my thoughts though.  Also, is it really necessary to be rude or is that just in some peoples nature?  Can't we just have a civil exchange of ideas and wait until Bioware releases thier product, which honestly is all we can do.

Well some people like being rude and insulting ( That addresses posters on both sides of the argument) and there seems nothing one could do about that. But I agree until we get the first promos for ME3 there is nothing but exchanging speculations, even if some of them are more likely than others.

[Pulse-eater]

Ladies and Gentlemen, the facts:

1) If this were any other form of media we would expect the survivors to continue playing a major role in the story. However this is a game that must adapt itself to diverse outcomes.

2) Bioware would not be continuing the "whole squad" even if the suicide mission had not taken place. Players enjoy meeting new characters and Bioware writers likely enjoy creating them.

3) 95% of players probably want their favorite characters to continue not the "whole squad".

4) The technical consequences in squadmate continuity created by a worst-case suicide mission require a baseline new squad. If they had planned the wholesale continuation of the ME2 squad why would they structure the suicide mission in this way? It is also a mistake to assume the new squad needs to be as large as the ME2 squad or will feature the same elaborate recruitment missions.

5) The popularity of certain characters may influence Bioware to continue some ME2 characters if feasible.

6) Bioware is highly unlikely to continue ME2 characters as combat gameplay only characters. This is antithetical to what they do. A useful post here has already dissected Bioware characters:

cachx wrote...

...On the technical side, and taking both ME1 and 2 as role-models, a squadmate is:
a - 3 or 4 full conversations one-on-one on the Normandy.
b - 2 or 3 "generic" lines per mission or hub (By generic I mean that they really have no real impact on the situation).
c - more dialogue for scenes/missions directly related to the character (that would be recruitment/loyalty missions). ...

7) Successful squadmate continutity of ME2 characters only requires an adequate replacement for "c". “a” and “b” are not obstacles. "c" is more difficult because they must not allow players with a dead squadmate to miss major content. Options: Interchangeable class-based missions. Out-of-squad story roles with placeholders + squadmate status. I attempted to detail these strategies in earlier posts.

To review, a new "baseline" squad is virtually assured. But partial squadmate continuity from ME2 cannot be ruled out.

Modifié par Pulse-eater, 13 août 2010 - 06:47 .

[chapa3]

Heh, maybe there is something to all these polls asking us about our demographics and favorite characters/love interests.

[SmokePants]

Wittand25 wrote...

If a cameo is done right it does neither cheapen the character or is an disappointment for the players. I never heard of anyone disappointed by the Wrex-cameo because it was done right, most are disappointed by the VS cameo because that one simply was not good.

I agree completely. BioWare can relegate every former ME1 and ME2 team member to cameos and still satisfy the player base. They are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the reason that the VS and Liara cameos ticked people off was due to the fact that they didn't really have extra dialogue branches if they were Sheperd's love interest. If BioWare can't even afford to put a little extra effort into a cameo to get it right, what hope is there for them getting a former LI squadmate right in ME3? Those of you who think Liara is such a slam dunk to return, just because she can't die, may want to reconsider (ha). If they do bring her back as a squad mate, they are probably going to cut corners and write most of the dialogue to work whether she was intimate with Sheperd or not, which is the recipe for failure.

Be careful what you guys wish for; you may get it.

Modifié par SmokePants, 13 août 2010 - 07:01 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

smudboy wrote...

Yeti13 wrote...

or they could all live?

Exactly.

Do you understand what this means?

I don't think you understand what this means.

-Polite

[smudboy]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Yeti13 wrote...

or they could all live?

Exactly.

Do you understand what this means?

I don't think you understand what this means.

-Polite

I am all eyes.

[Harley_Dude]

SmokePants wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

If a cameo is done right it does neither cheapen the character or is an disappointment for the players. I never heard of anyone disappointed by the Wrex-cameo because it was done right, most are disappointed by the VS cameo because that one simply was not good.

I agree completely. BioWare can relegate every former ME1 and ME2 team member to cameos and still satisfy the player base. They are not mutually exclusive.

Also, the reason that the VS and Liara cameos ticked people off was due to the fact that they didn't really have extra dialogue branches if they were Sheperd's love interest. If BioWare can't even afford to put a little extra effort into a cameo to get it right, what hope is there for them getting a former LI squadmate right in ME3? Those of you who think Liara is such a slam dunk to return, just because she can't die, may want to reconsider (ha). If they do bring her back as a squad mate, they are probably going to cut corners and write most of the dialogue to work whether she was intimate with Sheperd or not, which is the recipe for failure.

Be careful what you guys wish for; you may get it.

I found it very odd how they handled both Liara and Ashley since the conversation with Wrex and even the Rachni queen's Asari were much more in depth. Even Conrad Verner was better than Ashley.

[epoch_]

This thread is incredibly entertaining.

[Valtauran]

Well, for my save that i did first with Ashley as my ME1 romance, i didn't romance anyone from ME2 and each and every squad member from ME2 survived the last mission.



I am in the process to do a Tali Romance, though i am thinking of doing a Liara ME1 romance with a female shepard from scratch. lol



But i am thinking it all depends on which squad members died in ME2 and which one you romanced on ME1 and stuff like that to determine which ones return in ME3, i understand that the dude that is dying might not return depending on how long time has past between ME2 and ME3.



I guess we will find out when ME3 comes out.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Luc0s wrote...

snip

Actually, you are pretty pessimistic. You have no idea what Bioware's capabilities are. 5 years ago, if they were to announce they're planning on doing a fully voiced RPG where hundreds choices will affect two other games in the trilogy, people wouldn't have believed. If you think they're not capable of handling the fact that the mass 2 squad can die, then you don't know who your talking about. They designed Mass 2 knowing full well that some would die and some would live, depending on the playthrough. Bioware knew what they were getting into and they know how to handle it where depending on the playthrough, your surviving squad will be with you. They didn't dedicate an entire game to squadmates and loyalty missions just to cast them aside for a new squad, all because the characters could die. Ash/Kaidan could both die, but they were in Mass 2. The only reason they were given cameos was because they hadto make sure they were alive. They didn't want to design a possibly dead or alive ashley/kaidan. Simple as that. If they wanted those two as squadmates in the second game, they could have done it. It's the same concept, only with squad status. The game flags who lives and who dies from your squad, just like it flagged who lived and who died from virmire, and if wrex died, other npc's, etc...

So saying that Bioware can't do it is false, and obviously you don't know what your talking about. Just because it's inconceivable to you doesn't mean it is to others, specifically Bioware.

Edit: and you don't speak for everyone. You speak for about 3-4 people. Namely smudboy, zulu, whittand, and smokepants. Not exactly everyone.

-Polite

Modifié par PoliteAssasin, 13 août 2010 - 09:58 .

[smudboy]

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you're saying here or what exact point your'e trying to make.

PoliteAssasin wrote...
They designed Mass 2 knowing full well that some would die and some would live, depending on the playthrough.

1. How does BioWare handle the death of squadmates?

Bioware knew what they were getting into and they know how to handle it where depending on the playthrough, your surviving squad will be with you.

2. How does BioWare handle surviving squadmates?

They didn't dedicate an entire game to squadmates and loyalty missions just to cast them aside for a new squad, all because the characters could die.

...and why is that?

Answer question 1.

Ash/Kaidan could both die, but they were in Mass 2.

Their cameo placeholder was in ME2.

The only reason they were given cameos was because they hadto make sure they were alive.

Where you getting this?  How is that the only reason?  They could've chosen Anderson to be given that cameo, or Engineer Adams, or Chakwas, or whomever knew Shepard.

They didn't want to design a possibly dead or alive ashley/kaidan. Simple as that. If they wanted those two as squadmates in the second game, they could have done it. It's the same concept, only with squad status. The game flags who lives and who dies from your squad, just like it flagged who lived and who died from virmire, and if wrex died, other npc's, etc...

1) They gave Ash/Kaidan and Wrex a placeholder in ME2.
2) They didn't design Ash/Kaidan and Wrex to be like the ME2 squadmates.  Placeholders are not static characters.
3) Following this line of logic, ME2 characters will get cameo placeholders in ME3.  Is that what you're trying to state here?  Cause I don't what you're trying to state.

So saying that Bioware can't do it is false, and obviously you don't know what your talking about. Just because it's inconceivable to you doesn't mean it is to others, specifically Bioware.

What exactly are you trying to say?  What is BioWare trying to do exactly?

[Yeti13]

epoch_ wrote...

This thread is incredibly entertaining.

Quite entertaining, It's going to be fun when me3 comes out and BW shocks us all^_^

[SmokePants]

"Only reason" that they were cameos? I believe the actual quote was "One reason". Not the "only reason", not the "entire reason", not even the "main reason."

[Harley_Dude]

The first encounter with the Reapers will include whoever you saved in ME2 but you get your butt kicked and most of them die. So now you have to rebuild the team and build alliances with other species to defeat the Reapers.

[SmokePants]

Yeti13 wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

This thread is incredibly entertaining.

Quite entertaining, It's going to be fun when me3 comes out and BW shocks us all^_^

Not really. This is all just the same ****, different game,
different year. There's never any grand resolution. Slowly, the people with their head in the clouds, dreaming dreams come to realize they were wrong and stop posting well in advance of the game's release. They will blame Bioware for not executing their deluded plans rather than admit their plans were delusional. They'll  get angry, curse the developer, and swear off the game forever like the children they are.

The reason I know I'm on the correct side is because I won't get upset if I'm completely wrong. If Bioware can overcome the many, many hurdles to bring back the squadmates as squadmates, without compromising the quality of the game, I would be ecstatic. No one can accuse me of seeing only what I want to see. That's what separates an objective point of view from a biased one.

Modifié par SmokePants, 13 août 2010 - 11:11 .