2338 réponses à ce sujet

[SmokePants]

A Shepherd-type vs Husky (Spitz-type) doesn't work, because  the difference is based solely on aesthetic preference -- a flip of a coin. Cat vs Dog introduces practicalities into the mix. If one is living in a small apartment, works long hours, and travels a lot, then a cat would make far more sense than a dog.

Similar logic dictates BioWare's decisions here. They are not as likely to pick one course of action as the other. BioWare has to provide an all-purpose pet for people who might live in big-spaces or small spaces and might be home a lot or away a lot. Combined with the fact that they gave us a cat last time, I think it's pretty clear what we'll be getting.

I hold out no hope for a dog. And I'm fine with that.

Modifié par SmokePants, 16 août 2010 - 01:53 .

[McBeath]

smudboy wrote...

Because they can die.

Because they can not even be recruited.

Because you can play the game without an import.

The easiest fix is the game without an import.  Game assumes no one left behind.  I imagine a new player to the series will just begin the game with all of them on board... like we did when we first walked the Normandy in the first game. 

Garrus wasn't necessary for the first game, but it assumed that you knew who he was when you meet him in the second. 

As for death, I firmly believe that if you killed them you just won't have them. 

If they don't use placeholders, they'll just use cameos.  If they don't use any of those, they'll have completely static functional squadmates, as well as new characters.  Either way we're getting new squadmates.

It doesn't matter if the majority or minority completed no one left behind.  The system must account for every instance of the variables.  That's how the system was made.

I think the game will function just like ME2.  Zaeed is one of the easiest characters to get killed.  If you do that you just don't have access to his dialog that he interjects with during missions, ect.  Somebody else needs to be selected and so will have thier dialog.  He's just a dead spot on the recruitment screen.  I don't see this as a problem for new players as they won't have any dead characters, just players that already knew he was dead.

Now we could make arguments for how characters are resurrected, but that's pushing it.

And if BioWare simply does whatever it wants, then the import is inherently pointless on which squadmates survived.

I totally agree that if Cerberus/council somehow rebuilds the whole crew its just crazy. 

My only question for people that know how to program, on a game of compariable size to ME2 would it really be that difficult to make the entire game assuming that you had a set list of characters(say 10 ME2 plus 2 ME1), then have the game check to remove certain ones on the import.  Can that game be made in such a way that if one character isn't present that another will be shifted into that scene(like on thanes loyalty mission, if I don't take garrus instead tali will comment on the holo of me). 

Since it was all coded in game, including dialog isn't it just a simple matter of removing/denying access to it in a game import where that character died?

Can the game just ignore some of the things we did?  Is it not possible that some of the choices we made have no consiquence, even though we think they do?  Squadmates won't be ingored, but they won't be selectable for missions as we lost them.  Or is this just impossable to program?

Also, what is the assumption behind new characters?  Is there something I havenn't read from Bioware about getting them or do we just assume that we will?

Cheers.

Modifié par McBeath, 16 août 2010 - 02:50 .

[Wittand25]

The new characters are needed, or some imports will be simply unplayable, a thing that Bioware will try to avoid at all cost.

And no one left behind wont be the standard import. Not only would that mean a very step learning curve for the majority of players (casuals,who did play ME2 once or twice and those who did not play ME2 at all) it would also be insulting to the ME2 veterans, who actually had to work and invest dozens of hours into the achievement if everybody just gets it for free at the start of ME3.

It is far more likely that we will get a minimum carry-over standard for ME2 similar to the standard ME2 start. E.g. Miranda and Garrus survived, Tali was not even recruited (meaning she will be alive and available in ME3, to satisfy the Tali fans), the rest of the squadmates dead.



Creating the game with the everybody survived scenario in mind and then simply closing off content if the required squadmember died in the import is not a good way to desgin the game in my opinion.

because closing off the content would leave noticable "cracks". What I want to say is that it is next to impossible to make a game this way and not have the player getting the constant feeling that content was cut, which is a bad thing.

It is better to desgin the game, with the idea of no surviving squadmembers and then add ME2 squadmembers in suitable places. This can be done by using a ME2 squadmember to replace an existing NPC (like Wrex replaces Wrev if he survived) or by adding the squadmember just like in ME2 several NPCs are only there if you have an imported Shepard but completly missing for newly created ones.

[smudboy]

McBeath wrote...
The easiest fix is the game without an import.  Game assumes no one left behind.  I imagine a new player to the series will just begin the game with all of them on board... like we did when we first walked the Normandy in the first game.

I think we can both agree, BioWare won't do that.

Garrus wasn't necessary for the first game, but it assumed that you knew who he was when you meet him in the second.

That's because you have to meet in the first game (the Council Chambers), whether or not he was a squadmate.

As for death, I firmly believe that if you killed them you just won't have them. 

This is the easiest solution.

I think the game will function just like ME2.  Zaeed is one of the easiest characters to get killed.  If you do that you just don't have access to his dialog that he interjects with during missions, ect.  Somebody else needs to be selected and so will have thier dialog.  He's just a dead spot on the recruitment screen.  I don't see this as a problem for new players as they won't have any dead characters, just players that already knew he was dead.

Zaeed is "easier" to kill because you can kill him off in his loyalty mission.  Samara would be runner up, because that involves choosing Morinth with full P/R.  Grunt and Legion can be left or sold.

If somebody else needs to be selected, then that's a placeholder.

I totally agree that if Cerberus/council somehow rebuilds the whole crew its just crazy. 

My only question for people that know how to program, on a game of compariable size to ME2 would it really be that difficult to make the entire game assuming that you had a set list of characters(say 10 ME2 plus 2 ME1), then have the game check to remove certain ones on the import.  Can that game be made in such a way that if one character isn't present that another will be shifted into that scene(like on thanes loyalty mission, if I don't take garrus instead tali will comment on the holo of me). 

If you're referring to the characters having their own commentary, then that's no big deal per event, as seen in virtually every mission ME2. That has nothing to do with the argument here, though.

Since it was all coded in game, including dialog isn't it just a simple matter of removing/denying access to it in a game import where that character died?

Yes.

Can the game just ignore some of the things we did?  Is it not possible that some of the choices we made have no consiquence, even though we think they do?  Squadmates won't be ingored, but they won't be selectable for missions as we lost them.  Or is this just impossable to program?

ME2 did ignore many things, like Conrad's Paragon check, like Tali or Garrus' Paragon/Renegade check (well there was a few lines of dialog.)  But we're talking about character death.  And in ME2, character death was handled with cameo's and placeholders, cameo placeholders and absolutely nothing.

The issue isn't how hard it is to code.  It's the battery of development involved for every iteration of character alive/dead, the situations therein, the assets involved, and the time and money to produce.  The system must take into account all variations.  Look at all the stuff that was taken out of ME2 just on the squad members in your party and their commenting on almost the same line of dialog, for completely static characters.  This is why us nay-sayers, or pragmatic fellows, look at this and call this is a logistical nightmare.  It's not impossible, but definitely not what any smart, intelligent manager would consider cost effective.

Also, what is the assumption behind new characters?  Is there something I havenn't read from Bioware about getting them or do we just assume that we will?

Cheers.

Aside from it being what ME2 did...well, Casey said so.
http://www.joystiq.c...-mass-effect-2/

"Mordin was one of the more popular ones. I think the development of some of the existing characters people continued to enjoy, like the stuff with Garrus and Tali. We always try to balance the fact that, people will say "I want all my characters back from the previous game because that's what made the first game great." But when you think about it, part of what made the previous game great is the process of meeting those characters for the first time. That has to be part of the experience too, how you meet new characters."

[Harley_Dude]

[quote]PoliteAssasin wrote...
[/quote]

Are you kidding? The decision to kill the council did have an impact on the game, and will have one on the third game. You need to re-read my argument, because your not makig a whole lot of sense. If you killed the council, you get a different experience than if you didn't. If you killed wrex, you get a different experience than if you didn't. Two different experiences depending on the choice you made.

-Polite

[/quote]

No, all you got were cameos that had absolutely no impact in how the game unfolded.  And that is what will happen with most of the squad. The ones that are relevent, like Miranda and Legion, can be replaced. The others that are filler like Jacob will get cameos if they survived. If Liara and and Ashley/Kaiden are part of ME3 then you would have 14 characters to deal with. The xbox version of the game would have to be on 3 disks to hold all the needed dialog.

[Flamewielder]

McBeath wrote...

smudboy wrote...
If they don't use placeholders, they'll just use cameos.  If they don't use any of those, they'll have completely static functional squadmates, as well as new characters.  Either way we're getting new squadmates.

It doesn't matter if the majority or minority completed no one left behind.  The system must account for every instance of the variables.  That's how the system was made.

I think the game will function just like ME2.  Zaeed is one of the easiest characters to get killed.  If you do that you just don't have access to his dialog that he interjects with during missions, ect.  Somebody else needs to be selected and so will have thier dialog.  He's just a dead spot on the recruitment screen.  I don't see this as a problem for new players as they won't have any dead characters, just players that already knew he was dead.

I totally agree that if Cerberus/council somehow rebuilds the whole crew its just crazy. 

My only question for people that know how to program, on a game of compariable size to ME2 would it really be that difficult to make the entire game assuming that you had a set list of characters(say 10 ME2 plus 2 ME1), then have the game check to remove certain ones on the import.  Can that game be made in such a way that if one character isn't present that another will be shifted into that scene(like on thanes loyalty mission, if I don't take Garrus instead Tali will comment on the holo of me). 

Since it was all coded in game, including dialog isn't it just a simple matter of removing/denying access to it in a game import where that character died?

Can the game just ignore some of the things we did?  Is it not possible that some of the choices we made have no consiquence, even though we think they do?  Squadmates won't be ingored, but they won't be selectable for missions as we lost them.  Or is this just impossible to program?

Also, what is the assumption behind new characters?  Is there something I havenn't read from Bioware about getting them or do we just assume that we will?

Cheers.

A clarification:

smudboy's position is that if you absolutely want to use ME1 and ME2 squaddies for ME3, only the Virmire Survivor and Liara can be part of the plot, as they are the only ones guaranteed to be alive at the start of ME3. Should you want to make any one of the other squaddies part of the plot, you'd need a placeholder character to cover for him/her if she didn't survive.

To illustrate: the ME2 plot requires you to speak to the Urdnot Clan Leader, should you want to do Grunt's loyalty mission. If Wrex is alive, you get a nice cameo of Wrex; otherwise you meet his placeholder Wreave.

Now a cameo placeholder requires relatively little work: a model and some voice acting for one or two scenes. It's content you need to replay with a different save game to unlock. If you're a new player, you never get to see Wrex, so his model, dialogue and VA is taking up a little space on the disk that may not have been useful for something else.

A full squaddie, even if non plot-relevant, takes up more space than a cameo character (more lines, more cut scenes, more VA) on this disk. So it becomes a matter of balancing flexibility with the amount of unused material you want to cram on a disk. Not technically impossible, but complex enough (given that the XBox360 platform doesn't allow you to use HD/BluRay large capacity disks, so more content requires more disks) and a financial gamble on wether the sales will depend on the presence/absence of recurring characters.

Granted, a No One Left Behind default starting point insures all this content will be used by new players, leaving only the game import players with useless content on their disk. Then again, nothing prevents these same players from using a different import with all squaddies surviving.

But smudboy's concern is that the returning non plot-relevant squaddies ("static functional squadmates") will be duller than new plot-relevant squaddies. It may turn out to be the case, we'll know whenever ME3 comes out. Personally, I haven't been dissapointed by any ME character so far... so I'm not against having a new team for ME3, if they're on par with the previous ones.

Based on comments made by Casey Hudson regarding ME3 as a "standalone game" and regarding the pleasure of discovering new characters, I would say there are strong probabilities we'll see new characters in ME3. And since the community concensus appears to be that e-mails<cameos and cameos<squaddie, we will probably have at least cameos for all, and maybe some ME2 single-mission or "static functional" surviving squaddies.

[McBeath]

Flamewielder wrote...

A clarification:

smudboy's position is that if you absolutely want to use ME1 and ME2 squaddies for ME3, only the Virmire Survivor and Liara can be part of the plot, as they are the only ones guaranteed to be alive at the start of ME3. Should you want to make any one of the other squaddies part of the plot, you'd need a placeholder character to cover for him/her if she didn't survive.

To illustrate: the ME2 plot requires you to speak to the Urdnot Clan Leader, should you want to do Grunt's loyalty mission. If Wrex is alive, you get a nice cameo of Wrex; otherwise you meet his placeholder Wreave.

Now a cameo placeholder requires relatively little work: a model and some voice acting for one or two scenes. It's content you need to replay with a different save game to unlock. If you're a new player, you never get to see Wrex, so his model, dialogue and VA is taking up a little space on the disk that may not have been useful for something else.

A full squaddie, even if non plot-relevant, takes up more space than a cameo character (more lines, more cut scenes, more VA) on this disk. So it becomes a matter of balancing flexibility with the amount of unused material you want to cram on a disk. Not technically impossible, but complex enough (given that the XBox360 platform doesn't allow you to use HD/BluRay large capacity disks, so more content requires more disks) and a financial gamble on wether the sales will depend on the presence/absence of recurring characters.

Granted, a No One Left Behind default starting point insures all this content will be used by new players, leaving only the game import players with useless content on their disk. Then again, nothing prevents these same players from using a different import with all squaddies surviving.

But smudboy's concern is that the returning non plot-relevant squaddies ("static functional squadmates") will be duller than new plot-relevant squaddies. It may turn out to be the case, we'll know whenever ME3 comes out. Personally, I haven't been dissapointed by any ME character so far... so I'm not against having a new team for ME3, if they're on par with the previous ones.

Based on comments made by Casey Hudson regarding ME3 as a "standalone game" and regarding the pleasure of discovering new characters, I would say there are strong probabilities we'll see new characters in ME3. And since the community concensus appears to be that e-mails<cameos and cameos<squaddie, we will probably have at least cameos for all, and maybe some ME2 single-mission or "static functional" surviving squaddies.

Ah, thanks for the update and the link to that article.  I will at least conceed that comments like that from the development team would indicate that they will want new characters.   I think I wasn't clear on what people meant by cameo/static squadmates.

That being said, what do people define as cameos?  Do people think that we can expect Mordin or another scientist to fill the lab on the Normandy?  Do we think that some of these characters may fill roles similar to Joker, where there is some dialog available to players between missions? 

And what are the thoughts reguarding characters like Tali, which have such a massive fan base that it would require consideration to include her in a full capacity in ME3?  Regardless of the work involved do people think that she'll be a for sure full character unless she has died, just due to the number of fans?

[Flamewielder]

McBeath wrote...
Ah, thanks for the update and the link to that article.  I will at least conceed that comments like that from the development team would indicate that they will want new characters.   I think I wasn't clear on what people meant by cameo/static squadmates.

That being said, what do people define as cameos?  Do people think that we can expect Mordin or another scientist to fill the lab on the Normandy?  Do we think that some of these characters may fill roles similar to Joker, where there is some dialog available to players between missions? 

And what are the thoughts reguarding characters like Tali, which have such a massive fan base that it would require consideration to include her in a full capacity in ME3?  Regardless of the work involved do people think that she'll be a for sure full character unless she has died, just due to the number of fans?

You're welcome.

What is usually meant by cameo on these forums is an appearance by a former squaddie in a cutscene (i.e. the Virmire Survivor on Horizon) or a location (Wrex on Tuchanka, Liara on Illium). It is also used for non-player character like Giana Parsini, Shiala & Conrad Verner on Illium. You meet and interact with the character, but he/she does not join your crew/squad. The cameo may feel right or wrong, depending on your perception/attachement to the character.

The problem with ME2 squaddies becoming crew is that if you want them to feel useful, they have to provide something (like Mordin with the research lab) and, if they're dead, a placeholder (i.e. another scientist) has to fulfil this role. Otherwise, you'll have a bunch of kickass former ME2 squaddies-turned-crew that do nothing but chat with you. Very dissapointing from a gaming experience, illogical from a tactical standpoint. In the end, you're better off sending them out on their own away mission and provide 1 or 2 nice cameos...

I suspect there might be one crew placeholder for Dr. Chakwas, and/or Ken and Gaby. Joker survives no matter what, so he'll be back.

Finally, on the topic of "popular demand" for the return of one particular squaddie, I feel it would be a mistake to bring back only one or two over the others. Perhaps they will keep some character slots open for full non plot-relevant ME2 squaddies (maybe one or two), but I'd be dissappointed if they only offered, say , Tali and Garrus. But that's only my personal preference. And as smudboy rightly points out, each full squaddie requires a fair bit of banter/dialogue.

A return as a single-mission squaddie in a relevant mission would be simpler and more fulfilling than a cameo, but I'm still waiting on the Liara DLC to confirm if this is possible.

[Sherlock Ohms]

 I'm quite new to Mass Effect having only recently played 1 and 2 and I'm quite new to this forum (although I spent a fair bit of time reading some of the threads on these boards) so go easy on me!

The way it seems to me is that Mass Effect 2 invested heavily in the squadmates. I've read quite a few threads about how so little of the game was devoted to the main story (fighting the Reapers), but the way I saw it was that the characters were the main story of ME2. Not only did the recruitment missions give you a lot of insight into the characters but on top of that there were the loyalty missions.

I find it illogical that there would be such a large chunk of the game devoted to the characters if they were just going to be discarded completely or given minor roles for the final installment.

The fact that they could die doesn't mean that they will die and I imagine that at least half of them will return in ME3 as potential squadmates, along with some new characters and the Virmire survivor plus Liara. I think the Virmire survivor and Liara were likely in the second game to let the fans know that they hadn't been forgotten about and to keep some continuity.

I see a lot of mention of the amount of work involved in bringing back characters that may be dead after ME2 for many players but you can finish ME2 without doing many of the missions or recruiting all the characters so that could be seen as putting in a lot of work without a guarantee that most people will see it.
Besides, they don't make it too difficult to keep the whole team alive and how many ME fans are not going to have at least one save to import with at least 10 of the squadmates still alive (I'm actually curious about the answer to that)?

Perhaps you will have more potential squadmates to choose from than you can recruit if you have most or all of the ME2 squadmates alive? 

I'm sure that Bioware realise that the characters are as much a reason for ME's popularity as the story and won't want to let fans down just because it is easier.

Modifié par Sherlock Ohms, 16 août 2010 - 07:28 .

[SmokePants]

Maybe if ME2 was devoted to 2-3 characters in particular and they spent a lot of time fleshing them out individually and interweaving them with the main plot, that argument would have merit,.But ME2 spread its attention pretty damn thinly across 12 characters. None of them got the development that an important character should get. They were just something to do in ME2 -- carrots on a stick. It was entertaining filler material, but it was filler material nonetheless.

[Flamewielder]

[quote]Sherlock Ohms wrote...
I find it illogical that there would be such a large chunk of the game devoted to the characters if they were just going to be discarded completely or given minor roles for the final installment.[/quote]
Keep in mind that building up these characters contributed to raising the tension for the suicide mission climax... making ME2 more enjoyable.

Consider this: you spend 2 hours watching Aliens (the James Cameron film) learning about all these colorful soldiers, only to have 3 characters survive at the end. Why not keep the ones you like for the sequel? Because they have served their part in the story and their death contributed to the story telling.

Learning about the ME2 characters and caring for them made the suicide mission feel like you had something at stake. Your squad was more than a bunch of faceless mooks, more than just tools to be discarded in your fight against the Collectors. The end result is a high tension climax that has you nervously sweating over the choice of which squaddie you'll leave behind, wondering if you made the right choice. That's sufficient reason for developping these characters: making ME2 as good as you can, as a writer/game designer.

[quote]I see a lot of mention of the amount of work involved in bringing back characters that may be dead after ME2 for many players but you can finish ME2 without doing many of the missions or recruiting all the characters so that could be seen as putting in a lot of work without a guarantee that most people will see it.[\\quote]

Then why compound this by adding MORE material in the new game for characters you may not even have recruited in a previous game? Especially when you can introduce new characters who can be at least as good as the ones from ME2? Yes, Tali and Garrus are immensely popular, but there are at least as many players out there who actually preferred one of the others over the two top favorites. Who's to say new ME3 characters will not be as fascinating as the ME2 ones?

Modifié par Flamewielder, 16 août 2010 - 07:54 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

[quote]The Harley Dude wrote...

[quote]PoliteAssasin wrote...
[/quote]

Are you kidding? The decision to kill the council did have an impact on the game, and will have one on the third game. You need to re-read my argument, because your not makig a whole lot of sense. If you killed the council, you get a different experience than if you didn't. If you killed wrex, you get a different experience than if you didn't. Two different experiences depending on the choice you made.

-Polite

[/quote]

No, all you got were cameos that had absolutely no impact in how the game unfolded.  And that is what will happen with most of the squad. The ones that are relevent, like Miranda and Legion, can be replaced. The others that are filler like Jacob will get cameos if they survived. If Liara and and Ashley/Kaiden are part of ME3 then you would have 14 characters to deal with. The xbox version of the game would have to be on 3 disks to hold all the needed dialog.[/quote]

You guys are really amusing. You really think that Wrex rebuilding the Krogans, and his brother, if you killed him, doing absolutely nothing isn't making an impact on the game, then you must be playing a different game than the rest of us. The same goes for the council, that decision did impact the game, and it will impact the third game. Do you not know that if you killed the council you don't get to talk to the new one, and if you didn't, you converse with the old council? Obviously the choice impacted the game. And no one said 14 characters. Kasumi and Zaeed don't count because they're mercs, and are both DLC characters. So it'd be 12, if they decide to keep everyone. More like 11 with thane dead. 

-Polite

[smudboy]

Sherlock Ohms wrote...
I find it illogical that there would be such a large chunk of the game devoted to the characters if they were just going to be discarded completely or given minor roles for the final installment.

Why?  They served their ...entertainment purposes.  They had 0 plot relevance.  Why would they suddenly have plot relevance now?  Especially since they can die/not be recruited/not even be imported?

The fact that they could die doesn't mean that they will die and I imagine that at least half of them will return in ME3 as potential squadmates, along with some new characters and the Virmire survivor plus Liara. I think the Virmire survivor and Liara were likely in the second game to let the fans know that they hadn't been forgotten about and to keep some continuity.

They can die.  That means the system must take that into account.  It must factor in every instance of the variables being imported.  Maybe in your playthrough they didn't die, but that's irrelevant to someone else's playthrough that did.

If they do return as squadmates, it'll be a hell of a time, or it'll just be a function without any plot relevance.

I see a lot of mention of the amount of work involved in bringing back characters that may be dead after ME2 for many players but you can finish ME2 without doing many of the missions or recruiting all the characters so that could be seen as putting in a lot of work without a guarantee that most people will see it.

What mention of squad resurrection is there?  I haven't seen any Lazarus Project 2.0 arguments here.

Besides, they don't make it too difficult to keep the whole team alive and how many ME fans are not going to have at least one save to import with at least 10 of the squadmates still alive (I'm actually curious about the answer to that)?

It doesn't matter how hard or easy it is to make them die.  The fact that they can forces the design of the game to be a certain way.

Perhaps you will have more potential squadmates to choose from than you can recruit if you have most or all of the ME2 squadmates alive? 

Do you mean placeholders?

I'm sure that Bioware realise that the characters are as much a reason for ME's popularity as the story and won't want to let fans down just because it is easier.

It's not necessarily a matter of difficulty.  It's a matter of what they can't do for logistical and literary means.  If they can pull off 12 fully fledged squadmates on time, on budget, with new squadmates, more power to them.  If they make me believe they can pull off Project Lazarus 2.0, it would take a miracle, pure shots of cocaine and the channeling of James Joyce's ghost.

[Sherlock Ohms]

[quote]Flamewielder wrote...

[quote]Sherlock Ohms wrote...
I find it illogical that there would be such a large chunk of the game devoted to the characters if they were just going to be discarded completely or given minor roles for the final installment.[/quote]
Keep in mind that building up these characters contributed to raising the tension for the suicide mission climax... making ME2 more enjoyable.

Consider this: you spend 2 hours watching Aliens (the James Cameron film) learning about all these colorful soldiers, only to have 3 characters survive at the end. Why not keep the ones you like for the sequel? Because they have served their part in the story and their death contributed to the story telling.

Learning about the ME2 characters and caring for them made the suicide mission feel like you had something at stake. Your squad was more than a bunch of faceless mooks, more than just tools to be discarded in your fight against the Collectors. The end result is a high tension climax that has you nervously sweating over the choice of which squaddie you'll leave behind, wondering if you made the right choice. That's sufficient reason for developping these characters: making ME2 as good as you can, as a writer/game designer.

[quote]I see a lot of mention of the amount of work involved in bringing back characters that may be dead after ME2 for many players but you can finish ME2 without doing many of the missions or recruiting all the characters so that could be seen as putting in a lot of work without a guarantee that most people will see it.[\\\\quote]

Then why compound this by adding MORE material in the new game for characters you may not even have recruited in a previous game? Especially when you can introduce new characters who can be at least as good as the ones from ME2? Yes, Tali and Garrus are immensely popular, but there are at least as many players out there who actually preferred one of the others over the two top favorites. Who's to say new ME3 characters will not be as fascinating as the ME2 ones?

[/quote]

I agree with what you are saying, especially about bringing in new characters in ME3, if I were a betting man I would put a sizable wager on there being new squadmates available in ME3. 
And I agree with what you said about the investment in the ME2 squadmates being necessary to give the final mission some weight. However, with Bioware making a not insignificant deal about the decisions you make in ME2 having an effect on ME3 I'm still inclined to think it likely that more rather than less of the ME2 squadmates will return for ME3. The amount of work per character could potentially be reduced for ME3 now that you don't need to cover any previous history, and chatter between Shepard and the squadmates could be generic, having a common recent history. 
My point about the amount of work put into missions/characters that players could potentially miss was more about how Bioware intentionally put all this content into the game that not all players would experience, and if that's the approach they have taken for ME2 then they may continue that way into ME3.
I realise I'm just speculating here but then that's what the bulk of  this thread is surely 

Something else I've thought about is how the timeframe between ME2 and ME3 will affect things. I realise that there may be DLC bridging the 2 games but how will they go about "losing" surviving ME2 squadmembers if that's how they proceed? I mean, if Shepard is just floating around the galaxy for a few months with not much to do then I can imagine that most of the characters will have their own things to do, but if things kick off from where ME2 finished then it's hard to imagine a plausible reason for everyone just abandoning ship (no pun intended)!
Unless they repeat the "attack on the ship" storyline again....
Not really got any predictions here, just wondering if anyone else has? 
 

[glacier1701]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

The Harley Dude wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

Are you kidding? The decision to kill the council did have an impact on the game, and will have one on the third game. You need to re-read my argument, because your not makig a whole lot of sense. If you killed the council, you get a different experience than if you didn't. If you killed wrex, you get a different experience than if you didn't. Two different experiences depending on the choice you made.

-Polite

No, all you got were cameos that had absolutely no impact in how the game unfolded.  And that is what will happen with most of the squad. The ones that are relevent, like Miranda and Legion, can be replaced. The others that are filler like Jacob will get cameos if they survived. If Liara and and Ashley/Kaiden are part of ME3 then you would have 14 characters to deal with. The xbox version of the game would have to be on 3 disks to hold all the needed dialog.

You guys are really amusing. You really think that Wrex rebuilding the Krogans, and his brother, if you killed him, doing absolutely nothing isn't making an impact on the game, then you must be playing a different game than the rest of us. The same goes for the council, that decision did impact the game, and it will impact the third game. Do you not know that if you killed the council you don't get to talk to the new one, and if you didn't, you converse with the old council? Obviously the choice impacted the game. And no one said 14 characters. Kasumi and Zaeed don't count because they're mercs, and are both DLC characters. So it'd be 12, if they decide to keep everyone. More like 11 with thane dead. 

-Polite

Well considering that the Reapers are SPACE SHIPS how does having a horde of ground troops (if thats what we get eventually from a united Krogan race) help us defeat them?  And as for the Council pretty much the treatment is the same - they do NOT help Shepard in taking on the Collectors. So much for having an impact other than completely negative and in no way helpful to any degree. In essence then the choice is only cosmetic and does nothing. You could have substituted emails in the case of the Council and since Wrex could be replaced with Wreathe then again the choice does not matter. If a difference makes no difference then it was no difference in the first place.

Modifié par glacier1701, 16 août 2010 - 09:52 .

[A.N.A.N]

Except it is unknown whether it will make a difference or not, since the third game isn't out yet. You're making an assumption and passing it of as fact, no matter how logical you or others happen to think it may be

[Flamewielder]

Sherlock Ohms wrote...
I agree with what you are saying, especially about bringing in new characters in ME3, if I were a betting man I would put a sizable wager on there being new squadmates available in ME3. 
And I agree with what you said about the investment in the ME2 squadmates being necessary to give the final mission some weight. However, with Bioware making a not insignificant deal about the decisions you make in ME2 having an effect on ME3 I'm still inclined to think it likely that more rather than less of the ME2 squadmates will return for ME3. The amount of work per character could potentially be reduced for ME3 now that you don't need to cover any previous history, and chatter between Shepard and the squadmates could be generic, having a common recent history. 
My point about the amount of work put into missions/characters that players could potentially miss was more about how Bioware intentionally put all this content into the game that not all players would experience, and if that's the approach they have taken for ME2 then they may continue that way into ME3.
I realise I'm just speculating here but then that's what the bulk of  this thread is surely 

It certainly is speculation in large part

Something else I've thought about is how the timeframe between ME2 and ME3 will affect things. I realise that there may be DLC bridging the 2 games but how will they go about "losing" surviving ME2 squadmembers if that's how they proceed? I mean, if Shepard is just floating around the galaxy for a few months with not much to do then I can imagine that most of the characters will have their own things to do, but if things kick off from where ME2 finished then it's hard to imagine a plausible reason for everyone just abandoning ship (no pun intended)!
Unless they repeat the "attack on the ship" storyline again....
Not really got any predictions here, just wondering if anyone else has? 

Designer interviews point in the direction of bridge DLC, once the Liara DLC is out. This bridge DLC may or may not deal with the fate of your surviving ME squaddies, I guess we'll know more after we've seen how the Liara DLC will play out.
One thing the bridge DLC is certain to do is set the galactic stage for ME3, so the DLC will likely involve figuring out what the Reapers' next move is going to be, with ME3 being about stopping it. The DLC will also likely deal with whatever socio-political change the writers require in order to set up the stage (i.e. war between the Geth/Quarians? Civil war between pro-humans and an alien dominated Council or vice versa?).
If I was a BW writer and wanted to explain the surviving ME2 squaddies departure from the Normandy, I'd find something useful for them to do on their own or in small groups, each in a relevant setting.

Grunt/Jack - Assisting Wrex/Wreave in his Krogan unification scheme. Don't laugh... Grunt likes Jack and she loves to fight!
Samara/Morinth - Investigating the possible indoctrination of some key asari political figure/Matriarch
Miranda/Jacob/Mordin - Following up on Cerberus research on Collector/Reaper tech.
Thane/Kasumi - If still alive, may want to spend more time with his son Koliat and do some legwork uncovering some Reapers agents in Council space. A master thief also makes an great spy.
Garrus/Zaeed - Same as Thane and Kasumi, in the Terminus systems, but with twice the firepower and 4 times the testosterone...
Tali/Legion - Investigating Haestrom and trying to prevent a costly war between both races.

These are mere suggestions, but all are good justifications for leaving the Normandy and still contribute to the fight against the Reapers. I know my Shepard would agree... If we get a related mission for each group allowing us to use them as squaddies for that mission, all the better!

Modifié par Flamewielder, 16 août 2010 - 10:23 .

[TekFanX]

Prepare for wall'o'text



Well, I've got to admit that I just flew over the thread, sticking mostly to the posts of Bluko.

I'm sorry if I will repeat previous assumptions, but I think it's not healthy to read 56 pages of a topic that is bound to have some flaming in it .



But to the topic:



Bluko, you make some really logic assumptions, taking the effort BioWare would have to integrate that number of characters and possibilities, if all old chars would come back as squad-mates.



One of the biggest arguments for your hypothesis is Conrad Verner.

It might be a detail, but regarding your words of pessimism, I'm assuming this could be the tip of an iceberg.

Even if you where paragon in ME1, he insists on having a gun shoved in his face.

BioWare did a very lousy job there, only implementing a feature to say it's there and a imported save would have some more impressions on the game than higher politics you barely encounter ingame or the reactions of some NPCs.

If it would have been done right, we would have encountered Conrad for example as a tourist who had very bad luck in booking a trip if we choose the paragon-way in ME1.

Now that BioWare is a studio of EA, we have to assume even more errors in story-telling since, even if BioWare want's to make the content, a EA-manager sits in their back and forces them to change plans.

Don't get me wrong, some games EA makes are funny, but if you look at what has become of Command and Conquer, it's possible to assume the worst.

I don't want to minder the decisions that take over in our Savegames, but I expected more of them.

Feros has for example only one sidequest with either the asari you let live or some other character asking for your help.

Noveria had one side-mission too and the rachni-queen may turn up big in ME3, I'm still somewhat optimistic about that.



After stating my pessimistic view with examples you're free to pick apart for further discussion(no criticism intended ), I'd like to criticize your idea in one specific point:

Shepard can die too.



Although it's unlikely, that BioWare will create several new characters just for replacing the ones that died in ME2, it's also unlikely that the will create two new Main-Chars we would play while still putting all the effort into mshep/femshep.

Taking your argument, it would mean we would play a whole set of different new characters, maybe even other species.

But since the ME2-game can only be imported into ME3 if Shepard survives(at least one of the loading-screens states that), ME3 will likely assume that Shepard survived.



So new players will have a new Shepard and "Veterans" their old Shepard.



Given the assumption that BioWare won't transform Shepard into a reaper-slave to create a new character after him/her or any other decision that somehow weakens the position of our beloved hero/badass-Shepard which would ultimately end up in a flamewar that is likely to kill the BioWare-personnel by overheating the computers of the community-department until they reach meltdown.

BioWare, I like your work so far, so I suggest you buy some escape-pods if you go in that direction .



In the end not only the question about the squad matters, but also for the story in ME3.

It's pretty obvious, that we have to convince the council, volus, elcor, hanharr, the terminus-system, the batarians and every other organic species to prepare for the fight with the reapers, ultimately ending in a epic space-fight or viral attack against the reapers.

Possibly a mixture of both.



Also we should keep in mind, that BioWare is still a studio that want's to make cash, so the cameo-theory isn't that far away.

But then again, it's the final of a epic trilogy(if the income is right, the franchise is bound to be expanded), so treating the costumers by implementing the characters we all came to like, is quite a factor to keep in mind.



So I guess, the following theory is quite adequate, given the fact that ME3 has to assume some things(import surviving shepard only, two squadmates alive, etc) there will be a phase of the game, where "importers" are treated better(after all, this encourages new costumers to buy the prequels).

Basically they will have their old squad-mates for a short episode of the game, dead chars are replaced by "Cerberus-Agent" 1 to X.

When the game hits the main-part of convincing the other species, the old squadmates will leave, doing their best to convince the people(Garrus for example C-Sec+Turians or Terminus, not sure about that).

When they leave, the people who have to be convinced will send someone with you to validate your findings.

But if the Garrus, Tali, etc. where dead, you just get that new guy you have to convince.

And at the end, our beloved old friends will sit at the spearhead of different armadas or they are replaced by random characters if we choose to let them die.

[Pauravi]

smudboy wrote...

The issue isn't how hard it is to code.  It's the battery of development involved for every iteration of character alive/dead, the situations therein, the assets involved, and the time and money to produce.  The system must take into account all variations.  Look at all the stuff that was taken out of ME2 just on the squad members in your party and their commenting on almost the same line of dialog, for completely static characters.  This is why us nay-sayers, or pragmatic fellows, look at this and call this is a logistical nightmare.  It's not impossible, but definitely not what any smart, intelligent manager would consider cost effective.

This simply isn't true.
Each character can simply be a package of dialogue and if-then scenarios, each self-contained entities.  If that character is alive and/or in the party, then a certain package of content is present.  If not, it isn't.  The number of combinations is totally irrelevant, only the number of characters.  The fact that some players may not take advantage of it on their first playthrough or first import is of no consequence -- practically every RPG includes very large amounts of content that are totally optional, including ME1.

Assuming that they're going to reduce the characters from 1 & 2 to cameos just because of how some of the ME1 characters were handled seems foolish to me, especially since they explicitly said that 3 of the 4 cameos were so that the character's love interests from ME1 could return.  Considering the amount of effort that has been put into the romances, I don't expect them to simply drop them, nor do half-assed cameos.  Since potential LI's constitute a majority of the squad I expect that most, if not all of them, will have significant roles.  It also doesn't make any sense at all, story-wise, to recruit a bunch of characters that are very loyal to Shepard personally, only to suddenly have them all leave.

I don't expect that all of the characters will be back.  Some characters have good reasons to leave, such as Samara, or Mordin, and Wrex has compelling reasons to stay on Tutchanka.  The few non-returning characters will leave room for them to introduce a few new ones to the squad while still holding on to the relationships that the players have become attached to, and keeping the size of the squad no bigger than it was in ME2.

[McBeath]

Flamewielder wrote...

I suspect there might be one crew placeholder for Dr. Chakwas, and/or Ken and Gaby. Joker survives no matter what, so he'll be back.

Finally, on the topic of "popular demand" for the return of one particular squaddie, I feel it would be a mistake to bring back only one or two over the others. Perhaps they will keep some character slots open for full non plot-relevant ME2 squaddies (maybe one or two), but I'd be dissappointed if they only offered, say , Tali and Garrus. But that's only my personal preference. And as smudboy rightly points out, each full squaddie requires a fair bit of banter/dialogue.

A return as a single-mission squaddie in a relevant mission would be simpler and more fulfilling than a cameo, but I'm still waiting on the Liara DLC to confirm if this is possible.

I would agree with the crew for sure, I'm not sure who voiced them(other than joker), but it seems logical to keep them around.

While it may be a mistake to only include one or two I can really see that as being the way it goes, especially with Tali.  Her fanbase is way too massive to ignore, regardless of the work involved.  With her they went from a character that wasn't an LI(and for a pretty good canon reason in ME1) to an LI with an easy change background story wise in ME2 to cater to her fanbase... which is good business in my opinion.  Even had a little blub abouth the DNA differences that people would argue about on the ME1 forums.   I don't know how they will go about deciding that though(other than Tali).  While some characters are really popular(like mordin and tali) and others aren't(jacob), how will they pick and choose?

Pauravi wrote...

This simply isn't true.
Each character can simply be a package of dialogue and if-then scenarios, each self-contained entities.  If that character is alive and/or in the party, then a certain package of content is present.  If not, it isn't.  The number of combinations is totally irrelevant, only the number of characters.  The fact that some players may not take advantage of it on their first playthrough or first import is of no consequence -- practically every RPG includes very large amounts of content that are totally optional, including ME1.

Assuming that they're going to reduce the characters from 1 & 2 to cameos just because of how some of the ME1 characters were handled seems foolish to me, especially since they explicitly said that 3 of the 4 cameos were so that the character's love interests from ME1 could return.  Considering the amount of effort that has been put into the romances, I don't expect them to simply drop them, nor do half-assed cameos.  Since potential LI's constitute a majority of the squad I expect that most, if not all of them, will have significant roles.  It also doesn't make any sense at all, story-wise, to recruit a bunch of characters that are very loyal to Shepard personally, only to suddenly have them all leave.

I don't expect that all of the characters will be back.  Some characters have good reasons to leave, such as Samara, or Mordin, and Wrex has compelling reasons to stay on Tutchanka.  The few non-returning characters will leave room for them to introduce a few new ones to the squad while still holding on to the relationships that the players have become attached to, and keeping the size of the squad no bigger than it was in ME2.

This is how I tend to view things.  I'm kinda thinking that regardless of the evidence against it that some of those characters will be back, though some seem destined to leave.  All any of us can do is wait to see.   I personally hope that Garrus and Miranda will make it back(and Tali seems sure to me), but that's just my preferance.  Some characters like Mordin could really stay on the Normandy the whole time and I'd be cool with it, he's really like another Joker to me. 

A lot of RPG games do have lots of added extras you may or may not encounter(I still find little conversations and banters in Baldur's Gate after all these years), though I do see the other side of the cost effectiveness.  Every project is a balancing act between investment vs returns, we'll just have to see where in that equation the characters sit, and whether or not the project leads think it's worthwhile to invest in that.  Personally I think it is, but unfortunately I don't make those calls.

I have read that the development team really liked Yvonne, enough that they went back and redid the finished version of her character to look like her once she signed on.  Hopefully they try to include her in ME3 in a big way, somebody there is clearly a big fan of her. 

Cheers.

Modifié par McBeath, 17 août 2010 - 04:51 .

[shumworld]

Bluko you make an interesting case and I see what you're saying makes sense. However IMO I see some not all of your crew mates returning.

Garrus and Tali are mainstays. The fandom would be EXTREMLY disapointed if they were not to return as crew mates. Myself included.

The others (even Grunt) I can see leaving for varrious reasons.

Miranda would probably be hidding out to avoid her father.

Jacob is pretty bland so they can make up any simple reason for him to not be in your crew.

Samara is off being a Justicar bringing justice to other parts of the galaxy.

Grunt probably return to Tachaka and help make a superior race of Krogans with his awesome genes. While Mordin holds a clinic in that planet to deal with the Genophage.

Legion will be busy fighting the good fight agianst the Heretics.

Jack is off being a space pirate.

Zaeed is being paid to do other missions.

Thane would take time dealing with the issues he has with his son.

Kasumi is dealing with the issues she has with her old BF.

[smudboy]

Pauravi wrote...

This simply isn't true.
Each character can simply be a package of dialogue and if-then scenarios, each self-contained entities.  If that character is alive and/or in the party, then a certain package of content is present.  If not, it isn't.  The number of combinations is totally irrelevant, only the number of characters.  The fact that some players may not take advantage of it on their first playthrough or first import is of no consequence -- practically every RPG includes very large amounts of content that are totally optional, including ME1.

Character A: If Alive = 1 Variation (value 1)
Character A: If Dead = 1 Variation (value 0)

Thus, the flag for Character A is 1 if alive, and 0 if dead.  2 variations on the value of the variable.

What you're saying is the content for Character A will not be present if they're dead, is true.  This is part of what I'm saying.

Times that by 12, and what you intend to do with those variables, and then it becomes 24 instances: 12 are nothing (if that's the case), and 12 are something (whatever that may be.)

The issue is "whatever thay may be."  If it's fully fledged squadmates, the practical people are laughing due to the amount of completely optional content that people want from fully fledged squadmates.  If it's a cameo, it's believable.  Placeholders, well there's a discussion.

Assuming that they're going to reduce the characters from 1 & 2 to cameos just because of how some of the ME1 characters were handled seems foolish to me, especially since they explicitly said that 3 of the 4 cameos were so that the character's love interests from ME1 could return.  Considering the amount of effort that has been put into the romances, I don't expect them to simply drop them, nor do half-assed cameos.  Since potential LI's constitute a majority of the squad I expect that most, if not all of them, will have significant roles.  It also doesn't make any sense at all, story-wise, to recruit a bunch of characters that are very loyal to Shepard personally, only to suddenly have them all leave.

The issue mostly concerns ME2 characters, not ME1 characters.

Cameo's are cameo's.  They could be "half-assed", or exceedingly well done.  It's believable.  Fully fledged squadmates, with multiple levels, dialog trees, plot dialog, plot relevance, etc.  Logistical nightmare.  New, static characters?  Much more believable.

How does an optional LI have a significant role?  What significant role are you referring to?  Do you mean a completely optional love interest will have a plot relevant role?  What if 1) you killed all the love interest characters, 2) you never had any love interests?

It's not an issue of loyalty, or love interest, or why you brought them along.  It's an issue of the point of ME2, and that characters can interchangably die.  Which almost sets the stage for a placeholder situation.

The system must take into account character death.  It must.  There is no way around it.  Unless the writers pull a Lazarus Project 2.0 or retcon.  Whereupon the Suicide Mission is a waste of time.  Whereupon ME2 is a waste of time.  Whereupon all characters are pointless to any contrived plot.

I don't expect that all of the characters will be back.  Some characters have good reasons to leave, such as Samara, or Mordin, and Wrex has compelling reasons to stay on Tutchanka.  The few non-returning characters will leave room for them to introduce a few new ones to the squad while still holding on to the relationships that the players have become attached to, and keeping the size of the squad no bigger than it was in ME2.

You're missing the point.  It doesn't matter what the character motives are if they're dead.  You have to take into account how the system works.

[Harley_Dude]

ME2 is being ported to PS3 but not ME1 since M$FT controls the publishing rights. A new game in ME2 assumes you killed the council, wrex and the rachni queen so they will need to design ME3 to be a comparable experience across all platforms. Only way I see they can pull this off is to dumb down the decisions we made so anyone, on any platform, can have a full experience regardless if they are new to ME or played the whole series. The easiest way to do this is with new squad members and cameos for those of us with imports.

[Jaron Oberyn]

smudboy wrote...
snip

Smud... Your not making much sense. I advise you actually take a couple of seconds to read through what you've wrote before you attempt to post an argument, because you have next to no idea of what your talking about. 

-Polite

[smudboy]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

smudboy wrote...
snip

Smud... Your not making much sense. I advise you actually take a couple of seconds to read through what you've wrote before you attempt to post an argument, because you have next to no idea of what your talking about. 

-Polite

Polite...could you maybe ask me about the areas I'm not making much sense?  I advise you to actually make the effort to read and then post questions on my posts, since you seem to be unable to comprehend most of what I've been writing.