2338 réponses à ce sujet

[McBeath]

In response to Flamewielder:

I think wer're on the same page in regards to plot related(or "main") cutscenes. We have Joker, EDI, Liara and the Virmire character who are all available. I see these, as well as any new character Bioware uses, as being the driving force behind the plot and giving us the info we need in between missions.

As for the returning ones, they wouldn't be able to be in those cutscenes for the sake of the plot. That I 100% agree with. What I do think is that perhaps Bioware will flag certain characters as being importable. Lets say for the sake of arguement Miranda and Garrus only.

If I import a save game will all my characters alive, then Bioware will explain in some fashion(perhaps through bridge DLC, opening scenes, ect) where most of them went. Perhaps Joker will open the game giving me an update on their status. In any event, the game will check if I have those 2 characters alive, and they will stay onboard. If I walk around the Normandy they'll be in there assigned space, open for dialog trees, ect.

If I import a save with only Zaeed and Kasumi, then I get kinda the same. Some update as to where they went, but since they weren't flagged as importable I lose them. This would require that I get at least 2 characters given to me at the start of the game(perhaps the ME1 team) so I can continue to play.

While both saves are importable, the one with the full survival rate gives me a bonus, which is a number of extra characters to call on. With the potential for 12 characters, and I think 2 already taken by ME1, that gives Bioware some options. The ones I see most likely being around for import are:

Tali, Garrus, Miranda, Grunt. Maybe Jacob story wise, but I think his lack of popularity will see him easily absorbed back into the Alliance or dead.

Those other 4 have a varied skill set, good reasons to stay and a good fan base or obvious love from the design team. Everybody else either has a good reason to leave or will be dead in Thanes case. If that leaves them 6 slots that gives them the options needed to ensure that in a minimum survival import file they have enough characters to provide needed skill sets to support each type of player character and plot support. 4-5 imports wouldn't be that hard I think.

Cheers.

Modifié par McBeath, 20 août 2010 - 05:20 .

[Dasher10]

I'm guessing there will be some either/or squadmates



for instance



Ashley/Kaiden



Wrex/Wreav



Liara/Aria



Tali/Kal/Veetor

[Zulu_DFA]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I've already sent an email to her. Still awaiting the reply. The post that smartboy created was no more logical than yours.

-Polite

So while you wait, let's have fun:

CAT    DOG    ELEPHANT    RODENT    PIG   -- which word does not fit with the others?

I'm game: PIG, because it's the only word where the first letter comes after the last letter in the alphabet...

Now where's that reply from Christina? Do I get a cookie?

On a conceptual level, RODENT doesn't fit.  It's a different level of classification, a broader group of things.

And here comes the crammer,
And spoils all the fun.

Poetry. Am I going to bore the enemy to death?

[Flamewielder]

McBeath wrote...
I don't see us doing "please help us out" missions to gather the support of races.  I think that some races, like the Quarions or Geth, will either have the ability to choose between helping us or extinction on their own(which the Geth already do).  Perhaps the Krogan will need a nudge, but I think by creating organic races that are in league with the reapers Bioware gives us a more accessable enemy for them, and us to fight.  The various Council Races are in the moment the Council is, no need to convice the Turians for example.  Or Humanity.  Regardless of what they think the threat is, it has to be pretty clear that there is a threat.  Once it enters there territory it's either surrender or fight.   

That would depend on what BW will set up as a premise/introduction to ME3. Current situation in ME2 has other races mistrustful of Humans to varying degree. Council alive = Humans ascending faster than any other races (gaining Human Spectre, Human Councillor and Human dominated C-Sec under 2 short years). Council dead = outright hostility towards Humans. In short, Council races are still competing against each other, more focused on jockeying for position than mustering a united force against the dismissed Reaper threat ("Ah yes...").

Is Shepard's intel collected on the collector base enough to convince the Council races of the severity of the threat? Under FTL, the Reapers may only show up in a thousand years... not exactly a "clear and present danger". I agree ME3 will likely be an investigative-style series of missions, hunting for whatever Reaper agents might still be active within the galaxy. We may yet see more Collectors (assuming there were other ships and Generals active than the ones destroyed in ME2) and possibly a few new races.

The results of the missions may have some impact on galactic diplomacy, should it be about unifying galactic species against the threat.

[Flamewielder]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Flamewielder wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I've already sent an email to her. Still awaiting the reply. The post that smartboy created was no more logical than yours.

-Polite

So while you wait, let's have fun:

CAT    DOG    ELEPHANT    RODENT    PIG   -- which word does not fit with the others?

I'm game: PIG, because it's the only word where the first letter comes after the last letter in the alphabet...

Now where's that reply from Christina? Do I get a cookie?

On a conceptual level, RODENT doesn't fit.  It's a different level of classification, a broader group of things.

And here comes the crammer,
And spoils all the fun.

Poetry. Am I going to bore the enemy to death?

Darn... Another good answer... and I had this nice glass of milk poured for that cookie too.

[McBeath]

Flamewielder wrote...

McBeath wrote...
I don't see us doing "please help us out" missions to gather the support of races.  I think that some races, like the Quarions or Geth, will either have the ability to choose between helping us or extinction on their own(which the Geth already do).  Perhaps the Krogan will need a nudge, but I think by creating organic races that are in league with the reapers Bioware gives us a more accessable enemy for them, and us to fight.  The various Council Races are in the moment the Council is, no need to convice the Turians for example.  Or Humanity.  Regardless of what they think the threat is, it has to be pretty clear that there is a threat.  Once it enters there territory it's either surrender or fight.   

That would depend on what BW will set up as a premise/introduction to ME3. Current situation in ME2 has other races mistrustful of Humans to varying degree. Council alive = Humans ascending faster than any other races (gaining Human Spectre, Human Councillor and Human dominated C-Sec under 2 short years). Council dead = outright hostility towards Humans. In short, Council races are still competing against each other, more focused on jockeying for position than mustering a united force against the dismissed Reaper threat ("Ah yes...").

Is Shepard's intel collected on the collector base enough to convince the Council races of the severity of the threat? Under FTL, the Reapers may only show up in a thousand years... not exactly a "clear and present danger". I agree ME3 will likely be an investigative-style series of missions, hunting for whatever Reaper agents might still be active within the galaxy. We may yet see more Collectors (assuming there were other ships and Generals active than the ones destroyed in ME2) and possibly a few new races.

The results of the missions may have some impact on galactic diplomacy, should it be about unifying galactic species against the threat.

Exactly, which is why I think Bioware will introduce the Reapers.  It will have the effect of unifying the various groups(mostly) without taking up too much time and leaving Shepard and team open to some action.  I did read previously that the concept of space battles was being explored, though in all honesty I hope we don't have to do that.  I'd perfer them to be more cinimatic like in ME1 personally.

What I do think is that the Reapers will be there, and likely heading for the Citidel(as it gives them a clear advantage with control over the relays).  I think that an assault on the Citidel by an organic agent of the Reapers will happen, since once it's sealed they have no way to access it like in ME1.  Maybe an army of Krogan will stand in defence?  Who knows.  What I do believe is that in between our missions will be battles and updates of the Citidel and allied fleets and the Reapers, giving a backdrop to Shepards story and a degree of urgency to gain this technology, weapon or whatever.

Cheers.

[tonnactus]

theelementslayer wrote...

Miri-like it or not she was your second in command.

Was is the right word...

[Sapienti]

SmokePants wrote...

Yeah, ME was planned as a trilogy, but that's probably as far as it went -- "we're going to make 3 games." They clearly had no idea about the Collectors when they were making ME1. They probably knew where they were headed with regards to the Reapers, but I'm convinced that, for the most part, they are making it up as they go along. It's hard with games to lock in details so far in advance. They need the freedom to change the story to fit the design.

By the way, I just realized I am probably wrong about everything. I can see now how everyone could come back as squadmates -- don't give them any lines, just have them drag bodies away in every cut scene. Those clever bastards, they had the solution all along and managed to slip it into Overlord beneath our noses!

I agree about not knowing about the Reapers. A lot of things about on going stories tend to be made up as they go. The Collectors, I think, were just built to give Shepard an excuse to go make a team in this game. When they need a specific thing to happen in ME3 they'll likely make up another rule or entity to help move it along.

McBeath wrote...

In response to Flamewielder:

I
think wer're on the same page in regards to plot related(or "main")
cutscenes. We have Joker, EDI, Liara and the Virmire character who are
all available. I see these, as well as any new character Bioware uses,
as being the driving force behind the plot and giving us the info we
need in between missions.

As for the returning ones, they
wouldn't be able to be in those cutscenes for the sake of the plot. That
I 100% agree with. What I do think is that perhaps Bioware will flag
certain characters as being importable. Lets say for the sake of
arguement Miranda and Garrus only.

If I import a save game will
all my characters alive, then Bioware will explain in some
fashion(perhaps through bridge DLC, opening scenes, ect) where most of
them went. Perhaps Joker will open the game giving me an update on their
status. In any event, the game will check if I have those 2 characters
alive, and they will stay onboard. If I walk around the Normandy they'll
be in there assigned space, open for dialog trees, ect.

If I
import a save with only Zaeed and Kasumi, then I get kinda the same.
Some update as to where they went, but since they weren't flagged as
importable I lose them. This would require that I get at least 2
characters given to me at the start of the game(perhaps the ME1 team) so
I can continue to play.

While both saves are importable, the one
with the full survival rate gives me a bonus, which is a number of
extra characters to call on. With the potential for 12 characters, and I
think 2 already taken by ME1, that gives Bioware some options. The ones
I see most likely being around for import are:

Tali, Garrus,
Miranda, Grunt. Maybe Jacob story wise, but I think his lack of
popularity will see him easily absorbed back into the Alliance or dead.

Those
other 4 have a varied skill set, good reasons to stay and a good fan
base or obvious love from the design team. Everybody else either has a
good reason to leave or will be dead in Thanes case. If that leaves them
6 slots that gives them the options needed to ensure that in a minimum
survival import file they have enough characters to provide needed skill
sets to support each type of player character and plot support. 4-5
imports wouldn't be that hard I think.

Cheers.

This is exactly what I was thinking the whole while reading and discussing things though this thread. Because the minimum survival rate is two characters they can either asign two characters validly importable or in another case, two roles for (I think as someone said) two sides of a conversation that can be filled by certain characters. Like a paragon agreement or renegade agreement to a decision Shepard might make. If the characters are there, if not it could simply not be heard. Like taking Tali with you on Mordin's loyalty and Shepard mentioning a Quarian with a tummy ache. I also agree that the most likely characters would be Grunt, Tali, Garrus and Miranda. But I also see Legion having very strong come back ability. Since he's made up of a bunch of programs he doesn't really die, just loses his body, and since he can speak to the Geth from just about anywhere he doesn't need to physically leave to join them for whatever. He can just talk to them over MSN while he rejoins Shepard to go find that Prothean starship (which, by the way, would be extremely bad ass).

I can see it possible to bring back squadmates in any combination, but difficult to imagine them doing all 12 as playable. Though if they did I wouldn't complain.

[Harley_Dude]

But where does Blasto fit in?

[Flamewielder]

The Harley Dude wrote...

But where does Blasto fit in?

He's one of the 2 ME3 placeholder characters... wait, I just found a reason to space all the ME2 survivors!

[Sapienti]

The pre order bonus if you pre order the game at Gamestop and also buy the insurance will be a full 1 hour movie of "The Adventures of Blasto: Enkindle This".

[Flamewielder]

Sapienti wrote...
This is exactly what I was thinking the whole while reading and discussing things though this thread. Because the minimum survival rate is two characters, they can either assign two characters validly importable or in another case, two roles for (I think as someone said) two sides of a conversation that can be filled by certain characters. Like a paragon agreement or renegade agreement to a decision Shepard might make. If the characters are there, if not it could simply not be heard.

 
This is exactly where it gets ugly, Sapienti: if you want to do a scene like that with two ME2 survivors, you have to cover 12 x 11 = 132 possible dialogues for a single scene, because you cannot say which ME2 characters will be there; unless the scene is really short, (in which case we're talking about banter), your amount of content grows exponentially, which is the whole point of smudboy and others. OR, as you say, the scene simply doesn't happen, but in this case it becomes a question of how much content you want to go unused?

It's a lot less expensive for a movie maker to trim unecessary scenes from the script than it is to leave thousands of meters of negative on the editing room floor... even if they do most things digital; nowadays.  If the story can be told interestingly with 10 scenes, you may add 1 or 2 to please some actor's fans but the critics will point out "lulls" in the action.

The ME2 Jacob and Miri scenes were pretty elaborate but were also easy to script, because everyone involved was alive and garanteed to be present on board. That is why such elaborate cutscenes will mostly involve new ME3 characters (and possibly ONE ME2 character at a time, but certainly not TWO or more). This will reduce the importance of any ME2 character making it into ME3, when compared to new ME3 characters who will be used to drive the story.

ME2 character fans will probably not mind this reduced significance, which suggests BW may decide it's worth the effort to please a significant segment of their customers. But smudboy and others are right when they outline how complex the process will be and that sacrifices will be needed to make it possible (potentially compromising the overall story-telling experience for some players).

Comments are welcome!

[Flamewielder]

Sapienti wrote...
The pre order bonus if you pre order the game at Gamestop and also buy the insurance will be a full 1 hour movie of "The Adventures of Blasto: Enkindle This".

You know, I wouldn't be surprised if the animators at BW actually did a machinima, just for the shear lulz!

[smudboy]

Flamewielder wrote...

Sapienti wrote...
This is exactly what I was thinking the whole while reading and discussing things though this thread. Because the minimum survival rate is two characters, they can either assign two characters validly importable or in another case, two roles for (I think as someone said) two sides of a conversation that can be filled by certain characters. Like a paragon agreement or renegade agreement to a decision Shepard might make. If the characters are there, if not it could simply not be heard.

 
This is exactly where it gets ugly, Sapienti: if you want to do a scene like that with two ME2 survivors, you have to cover 12 x 11 = 132 possible dialogues for a single scene, because you cannot say which ME2 characters will be there; unless the scene is really short, (in which case we're talking about banter), your amount of content grows exponentially, which is the whole point of smudboy and others. OR, as you say, the scene simply doesn't happen, but in this case it becomes a question of how much content you want to go unused?

It's a lot less expensive for a movie maker to trim unecessary scenes from the script than it is to leave thousands of meters of negative on the editing room floor... even if they do most things digital; nowadays.  If the story can be told interestingly with 10 scenes, you may add 1 or 2 to please some actor's fans but the critics will point out "lulls" in the action.

The ME2 Jacob and Miri scenes were pretty elaborate but were also easy to script, because everyone involved was alive and garanteed to be present on board. That is why such elaborate cutscenes will mostly involve new ME3 characters (and possibly ONE ME2 character at a time, but certainly not TWO or more). This will reduce the importance of any ME2 character making it into ME3, when compared to new ME3 characters who will be used to drive the story.

ME2 character fans will probably not mind this reduced significance, which suggests BW may decide it's worth the effort to please a significant segment of their customers. But smudboy and others are right when they outline how complex the process will be and that sacrifices will be needed to make it possible (potentially compromising the overall story-telling experience for some players).

Comments are welcome!

It's actually 66, not 132.  Regardless, still, completely way too much.

Now, having static scenes with a placeholder (12 potential squadmates, x 2 static new squadmates), this is more believable, as we see with the dialog with Ashley/Kaidan being very similar (as well as all the in mission squadmate commentary per scene.  The problem still persiststs of all the other dialog one wants, per character development progression dialog, love interest dialog, etc.)

[Sapienti]

Flamewielder wrote...

Sapienti wrote...
This is exactly what I was thinking the whole while reading and discussing things though this thread. Because the minimum survival rate is two characters, they can either assign two characters validly importable or in another case, two roles for (I think as someone said) two sides of a conversation that can be filled by certain characters. Like a paragon agreement or renegade agreement to a decision Shepard might make. If the characters are there, if not it could simply not be heard.

 
This is exactly where it gets ugly, Sapienti: if you want to do a scene like that with two ME2 survivors, you have to cover 12 x 11 = 132 possible dialogues for a single scene, because you cannot say which ME2 characters will be there; unless the scene is really short, (in which case we're talking about banter), your amount of content grows exponentially, which is the whole point of smudboy and others. OR, as you say, the scene simply doesn't happen, but in this case it becomes a question of how much content you want to go unused?

It's a lot less expensive for a movie maker to trim unecessary scenes from the script than it is to leave thousands of meters of negative on the editing room floor... even if they do most things digital; nowadays.  If the story can be told interestingly with 10 scenes, you may add 1 or 2 to please some actor's fans but the critics will point out "lulls" in the action.

The ME2 Jacob and Miri scenes were pretty elaborate but were also easy to script, because everyone involved was alive and garanteed to be present on board. That is why such elaborate cutscenes will mostly involve new ME3 characters (and possibly ONE ME2 character at a time, but certainly not TWO or more). This will reduce the importance of any ME2 character making it into ME3, when compared to new ME3 characters who will be used to drive the story.

ME2 character fans will probably not mind this reduced significance, which suggests BW may decide it's worth the effort to please a significant segment of their customers. But smudboy and others are right when they outline how complex the process will be and that sacrifices will be needed to make it possible (potentially compromising the overall story-telling experience for some players).

Comments are welcome!

No no I don't mean like that exactly, I really should have been clearer but I mean isolated instances. Like only one scene that would involve, say, Jack and/or Mordin and they would take the Renegade and Paragon sides of a line of dialogue. In another instance you could have, Legion and Tali if both of them are alive in another scene later, if they aren't there then you don't get to hear whatever it is. Yea that leaves room for things to be missed but it would not have to be so elaborate. They could reduce the possible wastes by including scenes like that for certain characters with high survival probability (Legion or Miranda) and only having a there or not sort of thing rather than swapping roles around if one character isn't there. Basically instead of all the possible combinations of dialogue, its one possible dialogue you can hear, it wouldn't even need to be two really, could just be one. What this would do is give ME2 characters a little more substance, fans would be happy with that compromise, meanwhile all the important scenes would be discussed similar to the Mordin, Jacob, Miranda scenes in ME2 but instead with Ash/Kaidan, Liara and other guy.

I get what Smudboy (for lack of a better example) was trying to say, I'm just saying that there is a way that things can be done that would minimize cost, rather than it being all in or none in. Simple workarounds that, if we could think of, surely they could too.

smudboy wrote...
It's actually 66, not 132.  Regardless, still, completely way too much.

Now,
having static scenes with a placeholder (12 potential squadmates, x 2
static new squadmates), this is more believable, as we see with the
dialog with Ashley/Kaidan being very similar (as well as all the in
mission squadmate commentary per scene.  The problem still persiststs of
all the other dialog one wants, per character development progression
dialog, love interest dialog, etc.)

Yea it gets muddy with aditional dialogue, but it isn't the same sort of plot heavy dialogue that one has to worry about. This is closer to love interests by default. You can romance one and you get to see it through but others are missed. Bioware could justify the work going into character developing dialogue (like Garrus and Dr Heart in ME1 or Wrex and his daddy) with the mindset of "people play these games multiple times, they're bound to come across this stuff". Now they don't have to do it for every character, just ones that could be easy to do, others can be written into cameos to reduce the work load to a few ME2 survivors.

Modifié par Sapienti, 21 août 2010 - 12:40 .

[glacier1701]

 It is possible to know where the Reapers should first hit the galaxy rim. There is also a course of action that does not depend on 'governments' uniting but more on Shepards skill at getting groups of people to act. However the fact the of the matter still stands that the threat being faced is a huge load of spaceships. I am still unconvinced that having a squad regardless of its makeup will be of any use EXCEPT for 2 specific ME2 squadmembers. With those 2 a non high tech solution to taking out the Reapers is possible and indeed offers the prospect of the lowest casualties. Moreover this solution does not entail us going after the Reapers but of them having to come to us especially as they are the ones who need to successfully conquer. 

 

[Elyvern]

I can see how creating permutations for all 12 possible returning squadmates from ME2 and 2 (or more) from 1 would be a logistic nightmare and possibly something a profit-seeking company may not shoot for IF there is no replayability value to the game. The permutations should Bioware choose to take the route, would make me replay the game and on top of that, buy more DLCs so I can experience the widest possible combination of squadmate available.

[McBeath]

Flamewielder wrote...

Sapienti wrote...
This is exactly what I was thinking the whole while reading and discussing things though this thread. Because the minimum survival rate is two characters, they can either assign two characters validly importable or in another case, two roles for (I think as someone said) two sides of a conversation that can be filled by certain characters. Like a paragon agreement or renegade agreement to a decision Shepard might make. If the characters are there, if not it could simply not be heard.

 
This is exactly where it gets ugly, Sapienti: if you want to do a scene like that with two ME2 survivors, you have to cover 12 x 11 = 132 possible dialogues for a single scene, because you cannot say which ME2 characters will be there; unless the scene is really short, (in which case we're talking about banter), your amount of content grows exponentially, which is the whole point of smudboy and others. OR, as you say, the scene simply doesn't happen, but in this case it becomes a question of how much content you want to go unused?

It's a lot less expensive for a movie maker to trim unecessary scenes from the script than it is to leave thousands of meters of negative on the editing room floor... even if they do most things digital; nowadays.  If the story can be told interestingly with 10 scenes, you may add 1 or 2 to please some actor's fans but the critics will point out "lulls" in the action.

The ME2 Jacob and Miri scenes were pretty elaborate but were also easy to script, because everyone involved was alive and garanteed to be present on board. That is why such elaborate cutscenes will mostly involve new ME3 characters (and possibly ONE ME2 character at a time, but certainly not TWO or more). This will reduce the importance of any ME2 character making it into ME3, when compared to new ME3 characters who will be used to drive the story.

ME2 character fans will probably not mind this reduced significance, which suggests BW may decide it's worth the effort to please a significant segment of their customers. But smudboy and others are right when they outline how complex the process will be and that sacrifices will be needed to make it possible (potentially compromising the overall story-telling experience for some players).

Comments are welcome!

I don't think that under the circumstances that the major cut scenes will involve any ME2 characters.  I can actually see them being for example Liara, a new squadmate and the virmire one.  Including the Virmire survivor already entails doing it all twice just to cover the fact that one is dead.

I do see the characters in minor scenes, like where it calls for some input by an NPC.  Example, when the police officer explains how Samara will be required to kill her, and the team jokes about how Shepard sends them on such missions daily. 

Pehaps a big, final cutscene would get the work required to voice each character, even the ones that can possibly be dead... like the one at the end of ME2 when the suicide mission is launched. 

Bioware may have limited the number of characters eligable for import, just to keep the work load to a minimum. Lots of the squadmates in ME2 have good reasons to leave if not dead.  Having only say 4 of them is reasonable in my opinion.

Mordin I'm not sure about.   I think that if the upgrade system is the same we'll need the lab, and a scientist.  I'd love for Mordin to be around even if just on the Normandy in a support role.  He has some of the best dialog in the game and is one of the most popular characters.  He doesn't need to be a squadmate, just including him with a dialog wheel would be great, though I'm not holding my breath.  I could really see Liara in that part of the Normandy.

[Zulu_DFA]

Flamewielder wrote...

Sapienti wrote...
This is exactly what I was thinking the whole while reading and discussing things though this thread. Because the minimum survival rate is two characters, they can either assign two characters validly importable or in another case, two roles for (I think as someone said) two sides of a conversation that can be filled by certain characters. Like a paragon agreement or renegade agreement to a decision Shepard might make. If the characters are there, if not it could simply not be heard.

 
This is exactly where it gets ugly, Sapienti: if you want to do a scene like that with two ME2 survivors, you have to cover 12 x 11 = 132 possible dialogues for a single scene, because you cannot say which ME2 characters will be there; unless the scene is really short, (in which case we're talking about banter), your amount of content grows exponentially, which is the whole point of smudboy and others. OR, as you say, the scene simply doesn't happen, but in this case it becomes a question of how much content you want to go unused?

It's a lot less expensive for a movie maker to trim unecessary scenes from the script than it is to leave thousands of meters of negative on the editing room floor... even if they do most things digital; nowadays.  If the story can be told interestingly with 10 scenes, you may add 1 or 2 to please some actor's fans but the critics will point out "lulls" in the action.

The ME2 Jacob and Miri scenes were pretty elaborate but were also easy to script, because everyone involved was alive and garanteed to be present on board. That is why such elaborate cutscenes will mostly involve new ME3 characters (and possibly ONE ME2 character at a time, but certainly not TWO or more). This will reduce the importance of any ME2 character making it into ME3, when compared to new ME3 characters who will be used to drive the story.

ME2 character fans will probably not mind this reduced significance, which suggests BW may decide it's worth the effort to please a significant segment of their customers. But smudboy and others are right when they outline how complex the process will be and that sacrifices will be needed to make it possible (potentially compromising the overall story-telling experience for some players).

Comments are welcome!

Pretty much this. Plus the overwhelming majority of people wants the ME1 level of inter-squad intraction, when both squadmates would comment on the subject, sometimes even spontaneously, when you wouldn't really expect them to, like the dialogue triggering during the Mako ride through the Prothean Archives on Ilos, and of course the famous elevator conversations.

Elyvern wrote...

I can see how creating permutations for all 12 possible returning squadmates from ME2 and 2 (or more) from 1 would be a logistic nightmare and possibly something a profit-seeking company may not shoot for IF there is no replayability value to the game. The permutations should Bioware choose to take the route, would make me replay the game and on top of that, buy more DLCs so I can experience the widest possible combination of squadmate available.

Yet, even many of those who love the "2" admit that its replayability value is lower than that of ME1. Because somehow it feels all the same even when you change squadmates. See, there are 12 squadmates, so you need like 6 playthroughs to experience 95% of their dialogue. All you can miss are a couple of one-liners, when both of your squadmates are to speak up on the situation and the one "down the line" remains mute. Whereas in ME1 with only 6 squadmates, there were at least 15 playthroughs needed to hear all the elevator talkies.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 août 2010 - 07:58 .

[McBeath]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Yet, even many of those who love the "2" admit that its replayability value is lower than that of ME1. Because somehow it feels all the same even when you change squadmates. See, there are 12 squadmates, so you need like 6 playthroughs to experience 95% of their dialogue. All you can miss are a couple of one-liners, when both of your squadmates are to speak up on the situation and the one "down the line" remains mute. Whereas in ME1 with only 6 squadmates, there were at least 15 playthroughs needed to hear all the elevator talkies.

Now I just use Youtube if I really need to hear dialog like that

[Sapienti]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


Pretty much this. Plus the overwhelming majority of people wants the ME1 level of inter-squad intraction, when both squadmates would comment on the subject, sometimes even spontaneously, when you wouldn't really expect them to, like the dialogue triggering during the Mako ride through the Prothean Archives on Ilos, and of course the famous elevator conversations.

Yet, even many of those who love the "2" admit that its replayability value is lower than that of ME1. Because somehow it feels all the same even when you change squadmates. See, there are 12 squadmates, so you need like 6 playthroughs to experience 95% of their dialogue. All you can miss are a couple of one-liners, when both of your squadmates are to speak up on the situation and the one "down the line" remains mute. Whereas in ME1 with only 6 squadmates, there were at least 15 playthroughs needed to hear all the elevator talkies.

1) Read my above reply. And I don't know where you could get the opinion of "an overwhelming majority" of players. Especially when the users of these boards are in the minority. You can get a sample population of people on these boards yes, but then you would need to poll every user to get an opinion for things like that. However, I don't doubt that a huge number, probably even the majority want deeper squad interaction. I wouldn't say like ME1's though as that was actually shallower than ME2's. You're talking about squad dialogue. The Ilos stuff is a good example of that, I'd love to see more of that in ME3.

I disagree that ME2 has less replay value. With the DLC, I hardly feel like it gets stale when I'm going through a new run. I've done 3 playthroughs so far I'm on my 4th that I started when I saw we were getting the Overlord DLC. In ME1, it felt like I was doing the same thing during one playthrough over and over because there were only like, 3 or 4 different areas that were painted different or put in a different area. Underground caves, ship base, base, and...I think thats it. In ME2 you have a bunch of different areas. I fuggin love Omega. It isn't squad dialogue that makes for variable playthroughs, though it does help. Its the environments. And that is something we really don't need to be worryin about I'd say.

As for elevator dialogue, they can add similar stuff easy I'd say, just likely for different characters at different times, depends really. And for hearing the dialogue, I'm sure a lot of people would just youtube em.

[Flamewielder]

I can't speak for everyone but as for myself, I've completed more ME2 playthroughs than ME1 and when I think upon it, it's because the environments/levels felt less cut/paste then ME1. That, and the different classes felt more different in ME2 than ME1 (but again, that's just my personal feeling). To me, an Engineer playthrough felt very different than an Infiltrator playthrough even if the story itself remained pretty much unchanged.
That being said, I enjoyed ME1 immensely and the story was more like epic space opera while ME2's is more personal/emotional war drama set in a sci-fi setting. I'm curious to see where the writers will take ME3. I did enjoy the "spontaneous" exchanges like the one on Ilos and would have liked more in ME2. AND I had a crush on the female Alliance Marine Lieutenant we rescued from the Rachni, so was kinda hoping we could have them riding shotgun in the Normandy's cargo hold (like Kirrahe and his team)

Seriously, I agree with Zulu that on the storytelling side of things, ME1 felt a bit more different between playthroughs but the successful ME2 DLC system has offset this (and is padding EA's bottomline nicely, it seems).

[Zulu_DFA]

Sapienti wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...


Pretty much this. Plus the overwhelming majority of people wants the ME1 level of inter-squad intraction, when both squadmates would comment on the subject, sometimes even spontaneously, when you wouldn't really expect them to, like the dialogue triggering during the Mako ride through the Prothean Archives on Ilos, and of course the famous elevator conversations.

Yet, even many of those who love the "2" admit that its replayability value is lower than that of ME1. Because somehow it feels all the same even when you change squadmates. See, there are 12 squadmates, so you need like 6 playthroughs to experience 95% of their dialogue. All you can miss are a couple of one-liners, when both of your squadmates are to speak up on the situation and the one "down the line" remains mute. Whereas in ME1 with only 6 squadmates, there were at least 15 playthroughs needed to hear all the elevator talkies.

1) Read my above reply.

 

I read it.

Sapienti wrote...
And I don't know where you could get the opinion of "an overwhelming majority" of players.

Here.

Sapienti wrote...
Especially when the users of these boards are in the minority. You can get a sample population of people on these boards yes, but then you would need to poll every user to get an opinion for things like that.

Oh, really? Why don't you remind that every time someone comes up with "everybody has an all-squad-lives import"?

Sapienti wrote...
However, I don't doubt that a huge number, probably even the majority want deeper squad interaction.

And I doubt that the overall percenatge of people caring for the squadmates' comeback is as high as the one here.

Sapienti wrote...
I wouldn't say like ME1's though as that was actually shallower than ME2's. You're talking about squad dialogue. The Ilos stuff is a good example of that, I'd love to see more of that in ME3.

Many people, and I wish to emphasize, that it's not my opinion here, it's a fact that it's many people's opinion, think that because of many such little thought out thingies ME1 was a lot deeper than ME2.

Sapienti wrote...
I disagree that ME2 has less replay value. With the DLC, I hardly feel like it gets stale when I'm going through a new run.

I don't state that ME2 has less replay value... oh, wait, I do, but not in that post! In that post I simply point out that many people who, unlike me, loved ME2 as much or more than ME1, feel, nonetheless, that its replay value is lower.

Sapienti wrote...
I've done 3 playthroughs so far I'm on my 4th that I started when I saw we were getting the Overlord DLC. In ME1, it felt like I was doing the same thing during one playthrough over and over because there were only like, 3 or 4 different areas that were painted different or put in a different area. Underground caves, ship base, base, and...I think thats it. In ME2 you have a bunch of different areas. I fuggin love Omega. It isn't squad dialogue that makes for variable playthroughs, though it does help. Its the environments. And that is something we really don't need to be worryin about I'd say.

I played ME2 like five times. And I played ME1 more than a dozen times. I even had two and a half characters in ME1, one of them "paragade", and the one half - a full-paragon FemShep. With ME2 I felt no impulse to explore the game deeper. I felt the urge to fix it via modding.

Sapienti wrote...
As for elevator dialogue, they can add similar stuff easy I'd say, just likely for different characters at different times, depends really. And for hearing the dialogue, I'm sure a lot of people would just youtube em.

Elevator dialogue will be undoable it the squad includes an excessive number of characters. And youtube or not, it's part of the experience associated with the game, which the company capitalizes on. And the "elevator dialogue" youtube clips were among the most popular, along with the "sex scene".

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 21 août 2010 - 01:21 .

[SmokePants]

Planet scanning and having to re-buy all the upgrades was what hurt ME2's replay value to me. But it would be nice if we had a Dragon Age-style banter system. I think we'll get that in the next game to go along with a reasonable number of party members that they can do greater justice to portraying. We truly sacrificed a lot of character richness and depth by having 12 of them in ME2.

[deimosmasque]

Okay I spent 3 days reading this entire thread. Here's my opinion on everything. I want to state it's only an opinion, not an sort of actual method or plot; nor do I assume that I already know what the developers have in mind.

ME1:

Garrus and Tali rejoin. Liara has her own thing (which may be resolved in the new DLC) as does Wrex, Ash/Kaiden are loyal to the Alliance, not to Shepard.

ME2:
Miranda quits the Illusive Man, Jacob just wants to do whats best for Humanity. Mordin loved the challenged of facing Collector tech. Jack has resolved her past, with nowhere to go now. Zaeed was a hired gun, as was Kasumi. Grunt considers Shepard his warlord unless you don't do his loyalty. Legion, at the least, has a certain obsession with Shepard. Samara told you that she was leaving when it's done. Mornith seems more interested in eating you than helping you.

So based on that analysis it sounds like Miranda, Jacob, Legion, Jack, Grunt, Legion, Garrus, Tali, and Liara are on board for the next mission. Ash/Kaiden maybe. The rest maybe. And then don't forget the new characters they will come up with as well.

Modifié par deimosmasque, 21 août 2010 - 07:26 .