royceclemens wrote...
IoCaster wrote...
I'm not trying to redefine what the meaning of "is", is. Liara and Ash/Kaiden were kept on the sidelines to ensure their survival and presence in ME3. There's no guarantee that any of the ME2 squad will be in ME3. There's a case to be made that he meant that they won't have a prominent role in ME3. If we choose that interpretation then it still would indicate that they won't be squad members. That's pretty much the topic of the thread.
Yeah, there's a case to be made, but it's not a very good one. If we go by your interpretation and cling to the last eight words of Hudson's quote, then you're essentially answering a question that WhisperPiano didn't ask. WP didn't ask about the new squad. He asked why the ME1 LIs weren't recruitable this time out. It's not really that big of a strike against the ME2 squad once you take it all in context.
Here's the quote we're discussing:
Casey Hudson wrote...
CaseyH-ME2: We actually want to make sure these characters survive the ME2 story, which ultimately is a suicide mission: some of your crew will almost certainly die. Some of the ME1 characters are back, and recruitable (more than you might think), and the ones that aren't still play an important role in the story and will be around for ME3 - which we can't say for the new characters.
By all means, interpret it any way you'd like and that's certainly your prerogative. I'm under no obligation nor am I inclined to follow along and use semantic gymnastics to stretch the meaning in creative ways.
royceclemens wrote...
IoCaster wrote...
Not exactly. I have been debating various assumptions that have been put forth for establishing that the ME2 squad will be carried forward as squad members in ME3. I have not definitively made a claim that it absolutely won't happen or that it's impossible. I'm extremely skeptical that it will happen and have brought up a fair number of reasons why I believe it's very unlikely. To characterize that stance as ignorant is quite a stretch.
Fair enough, but you've provided no basis for your skepticism other than what ME2 gave you which, by your own admission, you were wrong about proceeding from ME1. You've countered arguments with the bromide that the ME2 squad will be cameoed or we'll get emails from them. But if you were wrong about what would happen going into ME2, then how can you define your hypotheses in ME2 terms? Aren't you essentially falling into the same trap a second time?
I'm not sure that I understand what point you're trying to make. I simply noted how unpredictable I thought the changes BioWare made with the story in ME2 were. I'm not the one making firm and declarative assertions about the certainty of BioWare carrying the ME2 squad forward into ME3 as squad members. My skepticism is based on the now established track record ME-->ME2. I also take into account what I believe is the simplest, most efficient and cost effective approach they might take in developing ME3.
What's the claim that the ME2 squad must be squad members in ME3 based on? Wishful hopes and dreams that BioWare won't get radical again? That they'd never sideline characters because...er...well because it doesn't make any sense? They've already done it, so why would I anticipate they won't do it again with any certainty? Especially when it increases the complexity and cost beyond what's necessary to make the game.
Now let me ask you a few questions:royceclemens wrote...
I'm sorry, Bluko, and I hate to add to the influx of disagreements with you, but I just don't agree. It's hard to find a practical or in-universe way to execute what you are hypothesizing.
Let's say you're right and everyone cameos. With those VAs plus the additional VAs for the new squaddies, wouldn't that be.. y'know.. expensive? Not to mention rendering twelve seperate levels for twelve different cameos would break the bank and boggle the mind. How long would the game be if you had to go to twelve different story planets with VO provided for each?
Wouldn't it be cheaper to just fill Sheps inbox with salutary email missives from his/her now absent companions? No VA costs, no muss, no fuss. If they did include a few cameos they could simply stack them all in a holding pattern at the Eternity Bar. It could be a nice reunion shindig scenario or whatever. No need for twelve seperate levels and a few lines of dialogue are certainly cheaper than fully evolved character arcs.
royceclemens wrote...
As for the practicality of importing saves with different possibilities for who lived and who died, well... I don't know if you've seen Ecael's Suicide Mission Guide (and if you haven't, I quite recommend it, it's very enlightening), but contained therein are the staggering number of permutations and possibilities for who can live and who can die at different times in the mission. This means that there are tons of dialogue that a lot of gamers will never hear because they won't playthrough time and time again to see who all can die where and what they'll say when they do so. And this is just for the final forty-five minutes of one game. If they can do that, then carrying the same level of permutations to a thirty hour game should be a piece of cake, shouldn't it? The whole "they won't record dialogue that no one will hear" argument is shot in the foot.
What tons of dialogue are you referring to? Other than Miranda, Chakwas, Joker, Kelly, Samara and EDI the squad have very little unigue dialogue on the Collector Base. They actually have very little to say other than a death mutter and that all gets recorded along with the rest of their dialogue from the main body of the game. That isn't quite the "shot to the foot" that you claim.
royceclemens wrote...
Furthermore, I don't see how cameoing everyone fits some sort of pattern because you need more than two numbers to MAKE a pattern. I know everyone's upset about the ME1 LIs getting sidelined, but I think it's less about personal affronts and shoving new LIs at you than it is pre-emptively averting a temporal paradox by having someone integral to the plot killed in the Suicide Mission. Kinda like how in MGS3 it's a game over if you kill Revolver Ocelot because we know he's still alive forty years later.
We only have two to work with so it'll have to suffice. The story is what BioWare decided it would be. They write the story and make this stuff up. Trying to predict what they'll do based on conventional storytelling structure isn't a very profitable excersize. They created this 'suicide mission' all on their own and where they take the story from here is something known only to them. I wouldn't make any predictions based on what course I think the plot of ME3 will take. The logical approach to me is to consider what the most efficient and cost effective route forward would be for dealing with vast number of variables involved in regards to the ME2 squad.
royceclemens wrote...
I just don't see how BioWare, given all the time and effort they put into JUST the Suicide Mission, would willingly plead ignorance on the game they made by bringing in a whole new squad because carrying over was "just too hard." But this is just me, though.
The "Suicide Mission" was the whole game in ME2. That game is done and there's no reason to believe that any of these characters are going to be necessary as squad members in ME3. We don't know what the plot of ME3 is going to be other than an assumed final resolution of the Reaper threat. You accused me earlier of basing my skepticism on track record (ME-->ME3), but you're basing your conclusions about the necessity of carrying over the ME2 squad on assumptions about the unknowable. We have no idea how the story/plot of ME3 will play out. At least I've got something solid to work with (ME-->ME2, cost, efficiency, complexity) as a basis for my speculation.
Retour en haut
