2338 réponses à ce sujet

[KainrycKarr]

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

[xlavaina]

Guys, why don't we just stop arguing? I think what people are trying to say is that Shepard is obviously critical to the story in the sense that you need a character to step into the shoes of, and someone that everyone looks upon as a hero, but also that the story revolves around the characters much more than it does around you. Basically, Shepard is the protagonist, but would be nothing without the characters that support him. So basically, both sides of this dispute are correct, so please stop arguing, it hurts the thread.

[KainrycKarr]

Because Bioware says he is. That's why. He is the protagonist, he is who Cerberus resurrects, he was the guy with the cypher or whatever, he's the guy the Alliance chose as candidate for the spectres, he's the guy who realizes the Reapers need to be taken seriously..



Although all of that is secondary. Shepard is integral to the plot, because Bioware says so. Deal with it.

[KainrycKarr]

Commander Bond wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

...Deal with what?

Anyway, moving swiftly forward..

[upsettingshorts]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

I'm a liberal arts student.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 août 2010 - 04:43 .

[KainrycKarr]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KainrycKarr wrote...

Stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

I'm a liberal arts student.

Was intended for smudboy's "how is shepard integral to the plot" thing

[Zulu_DFA]

smudboy wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

smudboy wrote...



2. Shepard is not integral to the plot of ME2.

That statement right there alone discredits everything you say.

-Polite

Prove to me where Shepard is integral to the plot of ME2.

Come on, Smudboy, just say that ME2 has no plot, and therefore Shepard cannot be integral to it...

Or do you mean that TIM could as well hire Zaeed to do all the job solo? Then, you are not quite right. TIM knew about the Collectors' desire to capture Shepard, and used him as bait in his Horizon ploy, and later on the Collector vessel.

@ PoliteAssasin.
What's with that PM to Christina Norman? Are we all idiots yet?

[Iakus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Your use of the word plot might be in error.  Plot is "what happens" - in that you could describe the plot of Star Wars as:

"Droids land on a desert planet and get lost.  Then they get picked up by scavengers and sold to some farmers.  Eventually the farmers get killed and their son takes the droids off planet with the help of an old wizard in a smuggling vessel flown by a scoundel and his co-pilot"

"Plot" is just an element of a story.  It's possible to have an exciting and compelling story with a simplistic plot because other factors are involved like themes, tension, pacing, dialogue, character, perspective... all things that need to come together along with the plot to form the story.

So if you're trying to say, "Shepard doesn't drive the plot."  Then you're right, he doesn't.  But he doesn't have to because other players in the story do it for him.  The protagonist doesn't have to drive the plot, that's not necessarily his job:

The protagonist is the character through which the audience is supposed to feel perspective and empathize with.  In addition to being the protagonist, Shepard is the focal character.   Without him, we would have no vessel through which to experience the narrative.  Other characters and elements in the story are partially or wholly defined by their relationship with or reaction to Shepard.  In that way he couldn't be more integral.

However, Mass Effect 2 is far more character driven than ME1, which was more plot driven.   

In Mass Effect 1, the plot demands that Shepard pursue Saren to beat him to the Conduit.  By being the protagonist in a plot driven story, this puts a stronger emphasis on Shepard in the narrative.
In Mass Effect 2, characters demand that Shepard pursue their interests in order to ensure their loyalty.  The plot only drives the narrative in a few instances after acquiring the Normandy - Horizon, the Collector Ship, the Reaper IFF, and the Omega 4 relay.

What Mass Effect 2 also gains over Mass Effect 1 is an antagonist of ambiguous motives who drives the plot - the Illusive Man.

The thing is, what made Shepard so important/special was the visions from teh Prothean beacon.  Shep knew that Something Was Very Wrong from the beginning.  Anderson thought Saren was after humans.  The Council (eventually) thought they had just a rogue Spectre on their hands.  Tali thought some geth plot was afoot.  But the Prothean vision gave Shep a glimpse of the true threat.  A glimpse that becomes more and more clear as the story progresses.  That is what made Shep unique.  Right place at the right time.

In ME 2, what makes Shep unique?  What makes Shep worth spending two years and billions of credits to put back together? What does Shepard have that makes him or her the only one that could recruit a team for Cerberus?  Why not Miranda, the genetically engineered leader?  Why not Garrus the super- vigilante?  Or Jacob, a former Alliance Marine and a hero in his own right?  Why not Ashley or Kaiden?  They were with Shepard every step of the way and had the advantage of not being dead.  Are they not "Shepardy" enough for the job?

Shepard killed a Reaper.  Impressive.  Except very few people believe in the Reapers.  Shepard got humans a seat on the Council/destroyed the Council to pave the way for human dominence.  That's nice, except few people know Shep's alive, and most of the people Shep recruits could care less about humanity or the Council.
Okay the Reapers are interested in Shepard.  Did that make the job easier or harder?

As for the other characters:  Their stories are pretty good.  But in structure, they're no different than any other personal side mission in other Bioware games.  Fun, interesting, but in the end doesn't change anything.  Personalities don't change.  Dialogue doesn't change.   The story itself doesn't change (couldn't Captain Bailey have at least mentioned to Shep that "Hes been having a busy week" because of Shep after doing both Thane and Garrus' loyalty missions?)

I heard a term for ME 2 that really fits:  it's very "insular"   The characaters don't argue (save for two scenes) they don't comment on each other.  Tali doesn't even comment on a geth being on board!   In fact, this is the first time I've played a Bioware game that allows two or more companions that has zero squad dialogue.  These characters, while well made, are off on their own little worlds and simply do not interact with each other.  This really hurts the story, overall.  Sure the characters come alive in their own stories, but turn back into cardboard once back on the Normandy, or even doing "main storyline" missions.

[upsettingshorts]

Congrats Iakus in posting the first at-length, well-constructed, and convincing criticism of the writing of Mass Effect 2 that I've ever read on this board or any other.

(The part about it being insular I will accept and agree with, without comment)

It really is as another poster said, a "Canterbury Tales" type game.

In terms of your points regarding Shepard's uniqueness, the fact he killed a Reaper and the Reapers are chasing him adds an element of predictability to their actions so yes I would say it lowers the degree of difficulty just a bit. Furthermore if we gloss over Shepard's bad-assery in the Mass Effect canon - we still have the question of his legitimacy as a leader and whether or not he could be replaced by Garrus or Miranda or Ashley or Kaidan.

*Ashley is a noncom who went along for the ride after Jenkins died, earned her keep but didn't really demonstrate any leadership ability. Plus for gameplay reasons she might already be dead.
*Kaidan is a capable junior officer who also performed well but who knows how many Alliance personnel could have fulfilled the same role. Plus, he could also have died.
*Garrus is sort of Shepard's pupil, and his development on that front continues over the course of Mass Effect 2. That being said, he isn't quite sure what he's doing with himself. I'd say he's almost ready, but not quite. That's kind of a feeling though.
*Miranda, as Jack implies when Miranda suggests she lead the second team in the Suicide Mission, comes with the baggage of being a Cerberus agent. Without the influence of Shepard, do any of the alien crewmembers end up under her command? Garrus would have been hard to convince. Okeer might have been game but Grunt would have demanded more badassery than pretty much anyone other than Wrex or Shepard in the universe is capable of delivering. Mordin would have been intrigued by the challenge and probably joined up. Jack sure as heck wouldn't and would have likely gone down fighting right there in the prison ship if Miranda was trying to recruit her by herself. Legion was intrigued by Shepard as he fought the Exiles on Eden Prime and elsewhere.
*Jacob doesn't strike me as a leader, just a damn good soldier you'd want on your team.
*The other characters are either unstable (Jack), highly specialized (Mordin), dedicated to a code that might be problematic (Samara), work alone or in small groups (Kasumi),  tend to get their comrades killed (Zaeed), or are only weeks old (Grunt).
* If Cerberus thought they could pull off recruiting him - which is doubtful given the events of books I havent read, but have read summaries of - is David Anderson.  Captain Anderson I think is very capable of doing almost everything Shepard does, it's just not his turn anymore.

I think something TIM gains from resurrecting Shepard that is actually explicit in one of the opening movies is legitimacy. He knows how he is viewed among other humans as well as aliens and Miranda states that the Galaxy doesn't believe in the Reaper threat the way they do and they would never accept Cerberus' assistance in dealing with their threat. Before Shepard dies, Miranda is already ordered to ensure that they do not lose Shepard. He exists as a great unifier who has legitimacy either through goodwill (ME1 Paragon), fear (ME1 Renegade) and respect (both) that no other character in the universe could legitimately claim. 

In addition to all those factors they know that Shepard knows the truth about the Reapers.  That's what made him special in ME1, but it doesn't "go away" because this game has a 2 in its title.  It's still very much a part of what makes him unique.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 août 2010 - 05:23 .

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

I disagree with OP.



First of all, being able to finish the game isn't the same thing as beating the Reapers. Bioware will make ME3 completable for sure, but there's no guarantee for a good ending if you import a bad file. Bioware has a LOT more leeway with how they made this one because they don't have to hold any punches for future games - nothing needs to remain for an ME4.They've said as much in interviews.



One thing I think the OP is forgetting is that you CAN'T import a save file where everyone in ME2 dies. You NEED to have enough people survive to pull you up; Joker's brittle bones and relative lack of strength can't handle it. So basically, if you're importing an ME2 character, at least 2 squaddies from ME2 must survive.



So given that, you have as a bare minimum:



1) Shepard

2) and 3) The two squaddies that survived ME2.

4) Ashley OR Kaiden

5) Maybe Liara, if she can take care of her responsibilities while in your team.



4 or 5 characters for an absolutely horrible import isn't too bad. This basically means Bioware COULD decide not to make any new characters (there's already almost too many).Or they could make 2 characters and your bare-minimum, complete suckage team would be pretty nice. But if they did make 2 characters, then an all-awesome, complete ownage team could have too many available (12 + Kaiden/Ash + Maybe Liara + Shepard + 2 new characters = 16-17 characters).



Personally, I think that what Bioware is gonna do is if you have a large enough roster of characters, you can send out organized teams to take care of other missions simultaneously, similar to the teams from the end of ME2. It'd be a cool bonus, too; a couple of extra missions throughout the game where you can send off 5 or so characters in their own little ship to take care of it. You'd play as one of the leader characters (Garrus, Miranda, maybe Zaeed) and have them take a few characters with it. The whole galaxy will be under attack, it'd only make sense to strike multiple targets at once. Those with good imports would have more characters to move around like chess pieces. It'd also be a good way to experiment playing with new characters and strategies while still keeping your personal favorites tied to Shepard. If you only had the bare minimum of 4-5, it'd be fine for your own missions but you wouldn't have enough people to send out on the extra missions.

[smudboy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I already demonstrated it.  Granted, I edited my post quite a few times to clarify a point or two, but it is more or less final now.

Explain how my arguments are incorrect and show your work.

A good place to start would be to formulate an example where Shepard could be "more integral" to the plot of Mass Effect 2.  Or you could offer an alternative character who is integral to the plot.  I've presented an argument, the ball is in your court.

I asked what makes Shepard integral to the plot.  That is to say, if you take Shepard out of the plot, the plot ceases to be, or ceases to continue.  You have yet to demonstrate this.

At any point during ME2 I can replace Shepard with anyone else, and the plot would continue.

At a certain point, I cannot do this in ME1.

Modifié par smudboy, 30 août 2010 - 12:10 .

[smudboy]

KainrycKarr wrote...

Because Bioware says he is. That's why. He is the protagonist, he is who Cerberus resurrects, he was the guy with the cypher or whatever, he's the guy the Alliance chose as candidate for the spectres, he's the guy who realizes the Reapers need to be taken seriously..

Although all of that is secondary. Shepard is integral to the plot, because Bioware says so. Deal with it.

1. You're wrong.
2. BioWare never said so.  The plot has to.

Being a protagonist is irrelevant.  We can kill off Shepard (!) and bring someone else in, and then kill that person off, and bring someone else in, and the plot would be just fine.

It doesn't matter that Cerberus resurrected Shepard.  He could've died on that station and the plot would've been fulfilled.  Anyone could've taken their place.

The only thing you listed that makes Shepard remotely integral to ME was the Cipher, but that's only part of what makes them integral, to ME1's plot.  We're discussing ME2 here.

@Zulu
I can only say that after a very long winded argument upon which character integrity, improper pacing, illogical causes and a host of holes turn the plot into a contrived mess that is easily dismissable.  I think I made a few videos about that. In your response, Zaeed could take Shepard's place.  If all it took was to tip off the Collectors, TIM could red herring them into doing exactly what they did in the events of ME2.

[smudboy]

Commander Bond wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Please explain how the role of a protagonist, and then Shepard's role as a protagonist, makes them integral to the plot.

Well by demanding evidence in support of the argument but by offering none against you've created an unequal burden of proof...

but what the hell.

The protagonist is the character around whom the events of the narrative's plot revolve and with whom the audience is intended to share the most empathy. They are "integral" to the plot because without them the sequence of events which compose the plot could not occur. Shepard is integral to the plot of Mass Effect because he is synonymous with protagonist in this case.

:happy:

I'm not denying the role of a protagonist as being integral to a hero story or whatever.  I'm saying in ME2 that role can be filled by anyone.

[upsettingshorts]

smudboy wrote...

I'm not denying the role of a protagonist as being integral to a hero story or whatever.  I'm saying in ME2 that role can be filled by anyone.

Then it should be easy for you to name them without violating the Mass Effect universe's internal consistency, or making assumptions about the ability of those characters to complete tasks unrelated to anything they've already demonstrated the potential to accomplish.  Of course keeping in mind the rather obvious - if limited - demands the plot makes on the "Shepard role" - that of recruiter, unifier, and public face of Cerberus' operations against the Reapers.

Creating a new character and inventing a backstory for them will not be an acceptable answer.  Because that could be done for any character in any medium regardless of circumstance.  Working within the confines of the already established universe and stable of characters is a requirement.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 août 2010 - 12:30 .

[smudboy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I'm not denying the role of a protagonist as being integral to a hero story or whatever.  I'm saying in ME2 that role can be filled by anyone.

Then it should be easy for you to name them without violating the Mass Effect universe's internal consistency, or making assumptions about the ability of those characters to complete tasks unrelated to anything they've already demonstrated the potential to accomplish.  Of course keeping in mind the rather obvious - if limited - demands the plot makes on the "Shepard role" - that of recruiter, unifier, and public face of Cerberus' operations against the Reapers.

Creating a new character and inventing a backstory for them will not be an acceptable answer.  Because that could be done for any character in any medium regardless of circumstance.  Working within the confines of the already established universe and stable of characters is a requirement.

1. "I'm saying in ME2 that role can be filled by anyone."  Anyone.  As in, anyone.  Pick a guy/girl you know.  Boom.  Protagonist.  The plot is fulfilled.  You can't do this with ME1's Shepard.
2. We don't need to create a new character.  I am only talking about ME2's plot, not some random backstory for whatever you're going on about.

[Sparda Stonerule]

smudboy wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

smudboy wrote...

I'm not denying the role of a protagonist as being integral to a hero story or whatever.  I'm saying in ME2 that role can be filled by anyone.

Then it should be easy for you to name them without violating the Mass Effect universe's internal consistency, or making assumptions about the ability of those characters to complete tasks unrelated to anything they've already demonstrated the potential to accomplish.  Of course keeping in mind the rather obvious - if limited - demands the plot makes on the "Shepard role" - that of recruiter, unifier, and public face of Cerberus' operations against the Reapers.

Creating a new character and inventing a backstory for them will not be an acceptable answer.  Because that could be done for any character in any medium regardless of circumstance.  Working within the confines of the already established universe and stable of characters is a requirement.

1. "I'm saying in ME2 that role can be filled by anyone."  Anyone.  As in, anyone.  Pick a guy/girl you know.  Boom.  Protagonist.  The plot is fulfilled.  You can't do this with ME1's Shepard.
2. We don't need to create a new character.  I am only talking about ME2's plot, not some random backstory for whatever you're going on about.

Alright, let's just replace Shepard with Conrad Verner, Pitne For, Ranna Thanoptis, Veetor, or Dr. Archer. Take your pick.

Sure let's not pick the man who proved himself in his military career and at the battle of the Citadel. He isn't unique at all in ME 2. He's certainly not talented or charismatic. He isn't a capable leader and a capable fighter. Honestly we can just replace him with anyone. Hell let's just replace him Conrad Verner, because he's a man on the edge. /sarcasm.

I'm sorry but your assertion that Shepard can be replaced by anyone is silly.

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 30 août 2010 - 12:48 .

[smudboy]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Alright, let's just replace Shepard with Conrad Verner, Pitne For, Ranna Thanoptis, Veetor, or Dr. Archer. Take your pick.

Sure let's not pick the man who proved himself in his military career and at the battle of the Citadel. He isn't unique at all in ME 2. He's certainly not talented or charismatic. He isn't a capable leader and a capable fighter. Honestly we can just replace him with anyone. Hell let's just replace him Conrad Verner, because he's a man on the edge. /sarcasm.

I'm sorry but your assertion that Shepard can be replaced by anyone is silly.

Yet, the plot will continue just fine.

This isn't about a resume.  This is about what the plot requires of the protagonist.  We get our marching orders from TIM, and people join Shepard at the drop of a hat.  Everything plot essential is accomplished by others, or the plot itself.

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

smudboy wrote...



2. Shepard is not integral to the plot of ME2.

That statement right there alone discredits everything you say.

-Polite

Prove to me where Shepard is integral to the plot of ME2.

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

smudboy wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

smudboy wrote...



2. Shepard is not integral to the plot of ME2.

That statement right there alone discredits everything you say.

-Polite

Prove to me where Shepard is integral to the plot of ME2.

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Feel free to prove to me where Shepard is plot integral then, and cure my obtuseness.

[glacier1701]

I can see where Smudboy is coming from on his arguement about ME2 and Shepard. If you recall the opening scene we get an exposition on why Shepard is 'supposedly' important to the effort to defeat the Reapers. Shepard is called ICONIC and a bloody Hero. Yet within the whole game the ONLY people who even half-way take Shepard at their word are those who knew Shepard in the past (and not even all of them either). In other words the very thing that made Shepard special in ME1 and was hinted at in that opening scene is thrown out the airlock as soon as Shepard is revived.

So lets make the assumption that Shepard does not make it off the Station at the beginning. Furthermore lets assume that Miranda is now placed in charge. What difference does that make?

 Zaeed/Kasumi - basically are hired so that would not change since the colour of the money is same. (Yes I know that Kasumi is not truly paid money but still the point stands that Shepard is not needed here.)

 Garrus - surprisingly if a team comes in having shot its way through mercs attacking him I cant see him turning down an offer of help. And since he is badly hurt there would be some gratitude about being patched up. There may be more problems later as the suicide mission approaches but none unsurmountable.

 Mordin - Well again a team comes in having shot its way through mercs would at least get his attention and provided the offer to put the cure into the air vents was carried out he does seem to honour his word. Again might be some issues but considering how the whole thing about the surveillance bugs plays out he should be happy if left to his own.

 Jack - well this is the only person who would not get onto the boat. Its about the only case where Shepard is needed and without them the 'plot' changes. Yet in the end not having Jack only makes a small difference.

 Tali - well this may change things on Freedom's Progress but considering the Renegade path that can be followed Shepard's lack of presence wont change much. However loyalty is another thing altogether and once again I do see that without Shepard there will be a load of problems that cant be overcome.

 Jacob - no changes here since Jacob has worked with Miranda before and is used to having her in charge.

 Samara/Morinth - Hmmmm well this is going to be one where you could argue both ways. Yet on Ilium it is Miranda who admires the asari culture so on balance I think that this should not be a major obstacle.

 Thane - Most probabaly a no-go but then again Thane does not matter in the suicide mission so no loss.
 
 Grunt - Not birthed but since the number of squadmates is now smaller this might lead to the loss of people in the end mission but IF the mission is accomplished then so what.

 Legion - Hmmmmm not awakened and so the whole Geth issue is unknown to anyone outside of the Geth.

 Kaiden/Ashley - well considering their reactions no change there in them stomping off.

 Liara - would not contact Miranda though she may know of the landing but since she does not join the ship no loss.

 To summarise there would be fewer people recruited for the mission and thus a greater chance of failure at the end mission. Yet the fact that enough people can be recruited so that that mission can be undertaken shows that basically Shepard is not needed. Yes the details do change at a number of points and the end result is most probably a captured Collector base under the control of Cerberus the whole of ME2 will still be accomplished. So I would say that that means Shepard is NOT integral to the overall plot. NOTE: For some of the squad to be there yes Shepard is needed but not for the ending. So thus Smud's point about Shepard is a valid one. We wont have the same ME2 without Shepard but it will still end with the Collector threat eliminated. 

 Now in ME3 - this is a whole different kettle of fish.

 

 

Modifié par glacier1701, 30 août 2010 - 01:31 .

[glacier1701]

Bah who thought of putting the QUOTE button right next to the edit button should be shot!!!!

Modifié par glacier1701, 30 août 2010 - 01:29 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

Sparda Stonerule wrote...
Alright, let's just replace Shepard with Conrad Verner, Pitne For, Ranna Thanoptis, Veetor, or Dr. Archer. Take your pick.

Sure let's not pick the man who proved himself in his military career and at the battle of the Citadel. He isn't unique at all in ME 2. He's certainly not talented or charismatic. He isn't a capable leader and a capable fighter. Honestly we can just replace him with anyone. Hell let's just replace him Conrad Verner, because he's a man on the edge. /sarcasm.

I'm sorry but your assertion that Shepard can be replaced by anyone is silly.

Yet, the plot will continue just fine.

This isn't about a resume.  This is about what the plot requires of the protagonist.  We get our marching orders from TIM, and people join Shepard at the drop of a hat.  Everything plot essential is accomplished by others, or the plot itself.

Yes, people sign up with Shephard.  That's part of the point of spending 4 billion credits to bring back Shephard. 

And they don't all just sign up at the drop of a hat.  Most either have conditions or make you wait or have a reason.

If you actually listen to what Kasumi says, she's actually eager to work with Shephard, she says she's a fan, and the Hock heist is her condition anyway.
Tali makes you wait until she's done with her current mission.
Samara makes you track down the lead(s) on Morinth.
Thane has personal reasons for accepting the offer.
Zaeed is being very well paid.
Garrus is in it for old time and because you came to the (unintentional) rescue on Omega.
Mordin is up for the intellectual challenge and has moral reasons.
Miranda and Jacob are already working for Cerberus.
Grunt starts out with nothing better to do to find a fight, and ends up viewing Shep as his Battlemaster.
Legion was looking for Shephard to begin with.

Of course, if you actually paid attention to what's going on with the characters on the team, there's more going on than just "signing up at the drop of a hat". 

No Shephard, no team, no mission, humanity dies, everyone shamed.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 30 août 2010 - 01:32 .