2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Hobosapien]

Shepard leads a team that thwarts the Reaper plans. The Reapers target Shepard to remove him as a threat to their next attempt to return. Cerberus decides that to defeat the Reapers they need Shepard, even with a list of capable individuals they choose Shepard.  With Shepard back the Reapers again have to be wary of his actions.   I'd say that makes him integral. 

Modifié par Hobosapien, 30 août 2010 - 02:16 .

[smudboy]

Since you went through most of the crew scenarios, I'll just look at some particulars I have a comment with.  Miranda does seem like the best protagonist alternative.

glacier1701 wrote...
 Jack - well this is the only person who would not get onto the boat. Its about the only case where Shepard is needed and without them the 'plot' changes. Yet in the end not having Jack only makes a small difference.

I would have to argue that Jack pretty much went along because she wanted to survive, and her ultimatum "make it worth my while" was just her acting tough.  Her Miranda scuffle with not giving her access to the database could end in her getting killed, which would imply she is completely thick and not having the surivor mentality we think her to.  At that point in time, Shepard = Cerberus in Jack's eyes.  Either way, the plot does not need Jack.

Tali - well this may change things on Freedom's Progress but considering the Renegade path that can be followed Shepard's lack of presence wont change much. However loyalty is another thing altogether and once again I do see that without Shepard there will be a load of problems that cant be overcome.

The Freedom's Progress scene would definitely occur differently, but nothing stopping the plot.

 Samara/Morinth - Hmmmm well this is going to be one where you could argue both ways. Yet on Ilium it is Miranda who admires the asari culture so on balance I think that this should not be a major obstacle.

Samara doesn't care who Shepard is.  She either "relishes to fight a worthy foe" or "senses the truth in your words."  Drop of a hat, turn on a dime.

 Thane - Most probabaly a no-go but then again Thane does not matter in the suicide mission so no loss.

Interesting, since Thane knows of Shepard.  But that doesn't matter; once the conversation goes to a Suicide Mission involving the Collectors and human colonists, he'll sign up.
 

 Legion - Hmmmmm not awakened and so the whole Geth issue is unknown to anyone outside of the Geth.

Yes, interesting too.  Miranda would probably sell it to Cerberus.

 Liara - would not contact Miranda though she may know of the landing but since she does not join the ship no loss.

Right.  She'll still be available for her services (locating Thane/Samara), perhaps even her fetch quest.  I'm not even sure if these scenes are plot integral; either way, Shepard is irrelevant.

Modifié par smudboy, 30 août 2010 - 02:41 .

[smudboy]

Commander Bond wrote...

smudboy wrote...
At a certain point, I cannot do this in ME1.

To which point do you refer?

The latest would be when Liara reads Shepard's mind to find Ilos.  Earliest would be Shepard and their beacon vision.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Miranda isn't a leader, she's a manager.

[smudboy]

Commander Bond wrote...

smudboy wrote...

The latest would be when Liara reads Shepard's mind to find Ilos.  Earliest would be Shepard and their beacon vision.

why wouldn't the plot have continued if Ash/Kaidan had been the one with the vision?

That would be disproven at Virmire (we need the Vision Bearer to survive). Thus, we could not get to Ilos had Ashley/Kaidan also received the Cipher, and been scanned by Liara, because they could die.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I find it hilarious how you think the poster character of Mass Effect is irrelevant to the plot of ME2, Smud. I don't disagree, nor do I agree. I'm just actually laughing at your deductions. 

[Tony_Knightcrawler]

Shepard *is* the player. Without a player, Mass Effect wouldn't even be started let alone finished. You can say Shepard isn't essential, but that's the same as saying you aren't essential. You decided who Shepard is.



Exactly how many people in the Alliance operate like Shepard? Galavanting from place to place, sizing up who will be a trustworthy and valuable addition, disobeying orders, going out of his way to help people, never stopping. Maybe Anderson could act like Shepard, but he's a pretty special guy, too.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Shepard *is* the player. Without a player, Mass Effect wouldn't even be started let alone finished. You can say Shepard isn't essential, but that's the same as saying you aren't essential. You decided who Shepard is.

Exactly how many people in the Alliance operate like Shepard? Galavanting from place to place, sizing up who will be a trustworthy and valuable addition, disobeying orders, going out of his way to help people, never stopping. Maybe Anderson could act like Shepard, but he's a pretty special guy, too.

You have a point, Tony. However, I think it's fairly obvious that Smud is talking about pure story, nothing to do with anything outside of the realm of the game. Forget it's a game for a moment, and think of it as (and only as) a story by itself. I think that's what Smud means.

[Unit-Alpha]

Well, no matter what anyone else says, I won't be purchasing ME3 new if BW decides to slack off and not give our choices as to the people we save meaning. That is, by including them as squadmates in ME3. I will go to Gamestop 2 days after release and purchase it used for $55 just to keep the money out of their hands if they decide to pull that crap.

Besides, I am only preordering the game for the characters, not for the plot. I think we all know exactly how ME3 is going to end (we are going to win).

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 30 août 2010 - 08:01 .

[glacier1701]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Well, no matter what anyone else says, I won't be purchasing ME3 new if BW decides to slack off and not give our choices as to the people we save meaning. That is, by including them as squadmates in ME3. I will go to Gamestop 2 days after release and purchase it used for $55 just to keep the money out of their hands if they decide to pull that crap.

Besides, I am only preordering the game for the characters, not for the plot. I think we all know exactly how ME3 is going to end (we are going to win).

The 'quality' of the win is up for grabs. It may only be that we temporarily force them back out. Yet basically all we really need to do to win is to force a draw. That is so long as we survive in good condition our technology advances and we get better and better at Reaper killing. So we do not necessarily need a kill every reaper situation to have won.

[Unit-Alpha]

glacier1701 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

Well, no matter what anyone else says, I won't be purchasing ME3 new if BW decides to slack off and not give our choices as to the people we save meaning. That is, by including them as squadmates in ME3. I will go to Gamestop 2 days after release and purchase it used for $55 just to keep the money out of their hands if they decide to pull that crap.

Besides, I am only preordering the game for the characters, not for the plot. I think we all know exactly how ME3 is going to end (we are going to win).

The 'quality' of the win is up for grabs. It may only be that we temporarily force them back out. Yet basically all we really need to do to win is to force a draw. That is so long as we survive in good condition our technology advances and we get better and better at Reaper killing. So we do not necessarily need a kill every reaper situation to have won.

True, but I expect some exploding Reapers at the end of ME3, even if it is just a few of them. Therefore, the plot isn't as questionable as that of the second game (which really didn't have any). ME2 was great, but it was a character-focused game. ME1 had a better mix of character and plot focus. So if they decided that all the time they've spend dev'ing the characters in our mind is garbage and decide to throw a new group at us, then I'll have an issue.

[Iakus]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
In terms of your points regarding Shepard's uniqueness, the fact he killed a Reaper and the Reapers are chasing him adds an element of predictability to their actions so yes I would say it lowers the degree of difficulty just a bit.

 
I'll admit that TIM seems to think so.  Dangling Shep and friends out as bait as he does.  I'll leave the wisdom of those actions for another discussion.

Furthermore if we gloss over Shepard's bad-assery in the Mass Effect canon - we still have the question of his legitimacy as a leader and whether or not he could be replaced by Garrus or Miranda or Ashley or Kaidan.

*Ashley is a noncom who went along for the ride after Jenkins died, earned her keep but didn't really demonstrate any leadership ability. Plus for gameplay reasons she might already be dead.
*Kaidan is a capable junior officer who also performed well but who knows how many Alliance personnel could have fulfilled the same role. Plus, he could also have died.

Either could be dead, but the survivor could be seen as a "disciple" of Shepard's.  One who followed in Shep's footprints since Eden Prime.  One who knows the truth of the Reapers, and still has Anderson's ear.  Both have been promoted  in the two years since Shep's death, and I believe Kaiden actually holds a rank higher than Shepard did in ME 1 (minus the Spectreship of course)

*Garrus is sort of Shepard's pupil, and his development on that front continues over the course of Mass Effect 2. That being said, he isn't quite sure what he's doing with himself. I'd say he's almost ready, but not quite. That's kind of a feeling though.

Garrus ended up leading his own squad of vigilantes which took three combined merc groups and a betrayal from within to break.  Give him the right cause, and he could be an understudy of "renegade Shep"
 

*Miranda, as Jack implies when Miranda suggests she lead the second team in the Suicide Mission, comes with the baggage of being a Cerberus agent. Without the influence of Shepard, do any of the alien crewmembers end up under her command? Garrus would have been hard to convince. Okeer might have been game but Grunt would have demanded more badassery than pretty much anyone other than Wrex or Shepard in the universe is capable of delivering. Mordin would have been intrigued by the challenge and probably joined up. Jack sure as heck wouldn't and would have likely gone down fighting right there in the prison ship if Miranda was trying to recruit her by herself. Legion was intrigued by Shepard as he fought the Exiles on Eden Prime and elsewhere.
*Jacob doesn't strike me as a leader, just a damn good soldier you'd want on your team.

Either Miranda or Jacob can be leaders.  Miranda is the stronger personality though.  I have no doubt that the two of them working together could have run the entire mission just fine.  If only they didn't publicly announce "Hey guys!  We're Cerberus!".  I mean, remove the Cerberus logos from their outfits, equipment, furniture, adn the side of the ship.  Just say they represent a "concerned patron" and leave it at that. A smart guy like Mordin could figure it out.

But when you get down to it, all that was really needed for this recruitment drive is someone to approach these people and say "I need you for a mission against the Collectors" and do whatever prerequisite job they have to complete first.  Garrus could do this.  Jacob could do this.  Any N7 marine could do this (maybe not even an N7)Heck, Conrad Verner could have done this! (though TIM might need to send an army of mercs to keep him alive)

I think something TIM gains from resurrecting Shepard that is actually explicit in one of the opening movies is legitimacy. He knows how he is viewed among other humans as well as aliens and Miranda states that the Galaxy doesn't believe in the Reaper threat the way they do and they would never accept Cerberus' assistance in dealing with their threat. Before Shepard dies, Miranda is already ordered to ensure that they do not lose Shepard. He exists as a great unifier who has legitimacy either through goodwill (ME1 Paragon), fear (ME1 Renegade) and respect (both) that no other character in the universe could legitimately claim. 

Again, keeping the whole "Cerberus connection" quiet would have gone a long way towards getting people to accept their help.  Besides which, Shepard's fame or infamy does absolutely nothing in the recruitment drive.  The only points where it helps are with Garrus and Tali (who already know him) and Legion, who's been Shepard's creepy stalker geth for the last couple of years.  Everyone else either doesn't know or care about Shepard's history.  If they need a figurehead for legitimacy, they could use Jacob, who also saved the Council.  Or use Garrus, or the Virmire Survivor, or even Joker, who led the Arcturus fleet against Sovereign.  Live hero or dead martyr?  Who needs Shepard when you can hijack Shepard's legacy?

In addition to all those factors they know that Shepard knows the truth about the Reapers.  That's what made him special in ME1, but it doesn't "go away" because this game has a 2 in its title.  It's still very much a part of what makes him unique.

That's where we get into some continuity problems between ME 1 and ME 2, where Shepard had apparantly finally convinced everyone that the Reapers exist:  

 Anderson to Council: "Shepard's right. Humanity is ready to do its part. United with the rest of the Council, we have the strength to overcome any challenge! When the Reapers come, we must stand side-by-side! We must fight against them as one, and together, we will drive them back into dark space!"

Udina to Council: "Shepard's right. We're on the verge of war with an enemy unlike any the galaxy has ever known! A war for the survival of all life as we know it! Humanity is ready to do its part. We will not back down. We will not surrender. We will lead you into battle against the Reapers and drive them Back into dark space!"

But that aside, others know the truth: The Virmire Survivor, Garrus, Liara, Tali, Wrex (if alive), Anderson, Joker, Chakwas, and other survivors of the Normandy's destruction.  Others who were at the battle like Donnelly and Gabby.  People know about the Reapers now.  Just for some reason  no one in charge wants to do anything about it (which may explain the uptick in Cerberus recruitment)

This is why I'm hoping ME 3 will get back to "Right place, right time" Shep instead of "Chosen One" Shep and the squad (whoever or whatever it's made up of) are of people who are united in a desire to fight the Reapers rather than a motley band of mercenaries.

[Iakus]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Tony_Knightcrawler wrote...

Shepard *is* the player. Without a player, Mass Effect wouldn't even be started let alone finished. You can say Shepard isn't essential, but that's the same as saying you aren't essential. You decided who Shepard is.

Exactly how many people in the Alliance operate like Shepard? Galavanting from place to place, sizing up who will be a trustworthy and valuable addition, disobeying orders, going out of his way to help people, never stopping. Maybe Anderson could act like Shepard, but he's a pretty special guy, too.

You have a point, Tony. However, I think it's fairly obvious that Smud is talking about pure story, nothing to do with anything outside of the realm of the game. Forget it's a game for a moment, and think of it as (and only as) a story by itself. I think that's what Smud means.

I agree.  a player is needed for the game.  But that player need not be Shepard.  I submit that the game could have begun with Cerberus agents rescuing an Alliance marine(let's call this marine "Hawke") from certain death.  Hawke could then have been drafted recruiting a team to go up against the Collectors.The game could have unfolded almost identically, just replace "Shepard" with "Hawke" where appropriate.  It wouldn't even have had to be called Mass Effect 2.  It could have been Mass Effect:  The Hellhound or something like that..

Actually, that would be an interesting lead-in to ME 3, with the choices of two seperate and unconnected characters meshing into a third game.  Two squads' worth of NPCs to draw from, and no grumbling about lack of consequencescarrying over from the first to second game since they focused on different characters...

Modifié par iakus, 30 août 2010 - 08:50 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

OP is silly.



There are two ways to approach the NPC debate. The first is from the "Bioware will do what is appropriate to the series" and the second is "Bioware will do whatever is easiest".



From the first way, then it's logical to assume that most, if not all, npcs from the previous games will return. Most don't have anything better to do character wise and since the player has already built up relationships with them, players would love to see those relationships expanded upon.



Now, approaching from the second way, Bioware will do whatever is easiest, so they will also include most if not all the old characters from previous ME titles. It takes less effort for Bioware to include previous Me squad mates than it does for them to introduce new ones. For the following reasons:

A.) They don't require any kind of introductory mission or barely any introduction at all. New characters would require introduction to the game, which usually takes the form of quests. In Me2 at least, this took the form of both a recruitment and loyalty mission for most characters, which takes up significant resources.

B.) Their models are already in the game, and since Me3 isn't going for any kind of engine upgrade, Bioware can pretty much just stick them straight from 1 or 2 into 3.

C.) Including past NPCs instead of introducing new ones is less intrusive to the story so they can spend time progressing the main story line instead of sidelining it to pick up and develop characters like they did with Me2.



I think what people have trouble understanding is that making squaddies in the game actually isn't -that- difficult. What's difficult is integration. That integration comes from character specific missions and romances. By including past npcs in Me3, Bioware already eliminates the hardest part of including squadmates in their game.

[theelementslayer]

smudboy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

smudboy wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

smudboy wrote...



2. Shepard is not integral to the plot of ME2.

That statement right there alone discredits everything you say.

-Polite

Prove to me where Shepard is integral to the plot of ME2.

Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Feel free to prove to me where Shepard is plot integral then, and cure my obtuseness.

Alright, I havent argued with you for a while and its really hot and I have nothing better to do. How is shepard integral to the plot. Well alright then. Here it is. TIM wants shepard to be the leader. He wants to spend the money to bring him back. Why? We are given the exposition that Shepard is a great leader through many speeches of Miri and TIM. And thats what TIM wants. He wants a good leader. Also no you cant replace Shepard with anyone its like saying you could replace Stalin or FDR with anyone. No you cant, they wouldn't/wont do the same things that the others would. Im pretty sure that a few of the characters join shepard because she is a good leader. They probably wouldnt join say Verner or a rando quarian. You can call shepard who you want but it still remains the fact that because of shepards iconic background and previous exploits that the people join, they probably wouldnt join a cerberus operation, they would join SHEPARDS operation of taking out the collectors.

That is why commander shepard is integral to the plot.

[smudboy]

theelementslayer wrote...
Alright, I havent argued with you for a while and its really hot and I have nothing better to do. How is shepard integral to the plot. Well alright then. Here it is. TIM wants shepard to be the leader. He wants to spend the money to bring him back. Why? We are given the exposition that Shepard is a great leader through many speeches of Miri and TIM. And thats what TIM wants. He wants a good leader. Also no you cant replace Shepard with anyone its like saying you could replace Stalin or FDR with anyone. No you cant, they wouldn't/wont do the same things that the others would. Im pretty sure that a few of the characters join shepard because she is a good leader. They probably wouldnt join say Verner or a rando quarian. You can call shepard who you want but it still remains the fact that because of shepards iconic background and previous exploits that the people join, they probably wouldnt join a cerberus operation, they would join SHEPARDS operation of taking out the collectors.
That is why commander shepard is integral to the plot.

That is a glorified introduction to Shepard, much the same way Udina, Anderson and Hacket introduced Shepard in ME1.  Neither make Shepard plot integral.

[smudboy]

A.) They don't require any kind of introductory mission or barely any introduction at all. New characters would require introduction to the game, which usually takes the form of quests. In Me2 at least, this took the form of both a recruitment and loyalty mission for most characters, which takes up significant resources.
B.) Their models are already in the game, and since Me3 isn't going for any kind of engine upgrade, Bioware can pretty much just stick them straight from 1 or 2 into 3.
C.) Including past NPCs instead of introducing new ones is less intrusive to the story so they can spend time progressing the main story line instead of sidelining it to pick up and develop characters like they did with Me2.

I think what people have trouble understanding is that making squaddies in the game actually isn't -that- difficult. What's difficult is integration. That integration comes from character specific missions and romances. By including past npcs in Me3, Bioware already eliminates the hardest part of including squadmates in their game.

The argument is for ME2 squadmates->ME3 squadmates.  Simply having them in ME3 is inconsequential.

A) Whose argument falls flat on its ass when new players never heard of these characters, or they're dead/not recruited/not loyal/not imported.  Characters, regardless of previous involvement, need to be introduced (i.e. meeting Tali for the third time, discovering Archangel again, etc.) which you yourself state "new characters would require introduction."  Why would this not hold true to ME2 characters, when ME1 characters got intros? (e.g. Tali, Garrus.)
Oh how original.  Yet another time gap, and Garrus and Legion still have massive holes in their suits/body.  Optionally remove the Cerberus logos from Miranda and Jacob.  Characters still don't have spacesuits, helmets, or any kind of protective equipment.  Or, simply don't have any characters at all.
C) Yes, because past NPCs are going to be completely plot relevant and integral to ME3's plot, just because.

Functional squaddies are not the issue.  It's having actual squadmates that are relevant or involved in the plot, with complete dialog wheels, character development, that do actually exist, do know what's going on, were involved previously, were loyal, etc.  Or else it'll be ME2.5: Fight the Reapers.  You argument still doesn't hold up because you didn't address the basic issues of squad death, lack of recruitment, lack of loyalty, and the non-importing of characters.  Great, we have all their old characters models: how the hell do all these variables work that'll be easy to include, just because some fanboy wants their old ME2 squad back?  What about the ME1 fanboys, who want their original squad back?  It becomes a ridiculous argument of "my opinion is more important", as opposed to looking at the functionality of how the system has dealt with squad death and recruitment before.

Modifié par smudboy, 31 août 2010 - 02:12 .

[KVerde]

I dont see how Bioware could put in any surviving squadmates. It would be a waste to develop the missions and dialogue for someone who will not be in everyone's save file. Most people on this forum can agree with that.



As for my predictions they are as follows.



I think Liara will be in from ME1. And that would make perfect sense as to why she was not put in ME2. They kept her out on purpose. The new DLC with the Shadow Broker will feature her and it will lead in to ME3. I think the Shadow Broker has a very important part to play. In the third game I seriously believe he will be the one providing intel to Shepard rather than it coming from Cerberus or the Alliance. I also believe Cerberus and the Illusive Man will become an enemy before it is all over.



The other characters will be all new squad mates. But possibly some previously introduced characters will also be in the game. For example Aria or Thane's son.



As for entirely new characters there will most definitely be one from the key races. Id expect to see a Batarian as well.



It will be a difficult task coming up with a new squad while also giving cameos to all the squadmates who could possibly be alive. But Bioware can make a game with the best of them. I have complete faith in the studio.

[smudboy]

Apologies.  I didn't see your post there.
[quote]Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Yes, people sign up with Shephard.  That's part of the point of spending 4 billion credits to bring back Shephard. 
[/quote]
1. Maybe Tali, but no one else.  Thane is aware of Shepard, but that has nothing to do with his motivations for joining.
2. The reasonings of Miranda and TIM have not been proven in the plot (being an icon, hero, etc.)  The only thing that gets Shepard is discounts at stores.

[quote]
And they don't all just sign up at the drop of a hat.  Most either have conditions or make you wait or have a reason.
[/quote]
Show me one example where characters do not sign up at the drop of a hat when you meet them, regardless of Shepard (aside from Tali.)

[quote]
If you actually listen to what Kasumi says, she's actually eager to work with Shephard, she says she's a fan, and the Hock heist is her condition anyway.
[/quote]
And this is reason enough to join a suicide mission?  Nothing was stopping her from doing that mission herself, or getting someone else.
[quote]
Tali makes you wait until she's done with her current mission.
[/quote]
I'll concede Tali, but not for your reason.
[quote]
Samara makes you track down the lead(s) on Morinth.
[/quote]
Says nothing of why she's coming, aside from "I am humbled" or "I relish attacking a worthy foe."  Justicars are drawn to injustice and lost causes, not suicide missions.  Her reasonings for her Third Oath of Subsumation is beyond stupid.
[quote]
Thane has personal reasons for accepting the offer.
[/quote]
He wanted to die anyway, and was going to anyway?
[quote]
Zaeed is being very well paid.
[/quote]
The professional drop of a hat.
[quote]
Garrus is in it for old time and because you came to the (unintentional) rescue on Omega.
[/quote]
The why not drop of a hat.  I don't even think there was a discussion about a Suicide Mission.
[quote]
Mordin is up for the intellectual challenge and has moral reasons.
[/quote]
Mordin is plot integral, and good reason is given.  Most of my arguments do not apply to Mordin.
[quote]
Miranda and Jacob are already working for Cerberus.
[/quote]
Exactly.
[quote]
Grunt starts out with nothing better to do to find a fight, and ends up viewing Shep as his Battlemaster.
[/quote]
This isn't about loyalty, it's about recruitment.  Grunt wants to kill things.  Shepard let Grunt kill things?  Optional drop of a hat.
[quote]
Legion was looking for Shephard to begin with.
[/quote]
A situation of extreme circumstance and chance.  Optional drop of a hat.
[quote]
Of course, if you actually paid attention to what's going on with the characters on the team, there's more going on than just "signing up at the drop of a hat". 
[/quote]
I'm sorry, next time someone asks you to sign up for a Suicide Mission, maybe you might ask a few questions about it, let alone actively considering it.  Ridiculous requests require ridiculous reactions, except from Zaeed.
[quote]
No Shephard, no team, no mission, humanity dies, everyone shamed.
[/quote]
Subitutute Shepard for anyone, and you'd get your team, your mission, "save humanity", and not shame anyone.  Shepard is not needed for recruitment, aside from Tali (although even she'd be happy of someone coming to save her, even Miranda.)

Modifié par smudboy, 31 août 2010 - 02:32 .

[Hobosapien]

@smudboy, You make assumptions that characters would go whether or not Shepard was involved. In truth you have no more idea than people who argue the opposite. Shepard isn't needed but Mordin is? No one else in a galaxy of trillions could develope a counter measure to the swarm? Shall we all be so pedantic that we get bogged down in the smallest details that even scifi is no longer fun? In a world with aliens, space travel, mess effect drives you call bull when Jacob's father abuses his authority and makes horrible choices. Can you not fathom a man like Wilson who would betray anyone for money? Try reading the paper sometime, people screw each other for less.

[smudboy]

Hobosapien wrote...

@smudboy, You make assumptions that characters would go whether or not Shepard was involved. In truth you have no more idea than people who argue the opposite. Shepard isn't needed but Mordin is? No one else in a galaxy of trillions could develope a counter measure to the swarm? Shall we all be so pedantic that we get bogged down in the smallest details that even scifi is no longer fun? In a world with aliens, space travel, mess effect drives you call bull when Jacob's father abuses his authority and makes horrible choices. Can you not fathom a man like Wilson who would betray anyone for money? Try reading the paper sometime, people screw each other for less.

This is not about genre, or characters, or ...all that other stuff.  This is about the plot.

Mordin proves their integrity to the plot.  I'm sure TIM had other choices, but we don't know what those were.  Mordin is essentially ME2's version of Tali in ME1: she provides a plot device, a la plot ticket/Macguffin, to make the plot continue.

We can argue Tali would go and only go with Shepard, because it's Shepard, regardless of ME2's plot.  We cannot say the same of Mordin, however, because he 1) wants the plague cured which is possibly associated with the Collectors, 2) likes science.  His motivations and reasons for joining the Suicide Mission have nothing to do with Shepard.  We know exactly why Mordin and Tali joined; I am not making assumptions. We can then look at all the motivations of each of the characters, and they have nothing to do with Shepard.

The plot itself doesn't really care about Shepard either way.  Whereas in ME1, Shepard was an active protagonist, plot integral, and who had several supporting characters who were necessary toward their/its goal.

[Killjoy Cutter]

KVerde wrote...

I dont see how Bioware could put in any surviving squadmates. It would be a waste to develop the missions and dialogue for someone who will not be in everyone's save file. Most people on this forum can agree with that.

Plenty of people who could have died in ME1 make important appearances in ME2. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

Hobosapien wrote...

@smudboy, You make assumptions that characters would go whether or not Shepard was involved. In truth you have no more idea than people who argue the opposite. Shepard isn't needed but Mordin is? No one else in a galaxy of trillions could develope a counter measure to the swarm? Shall we all be so pedantic that we get bogged down in the smallest details that even scifi is no longer fun? In a world with aliens, space travel, mess effect drives you call bull when Jacob's father abuses his authority and makes horrible choices. Can you not fathom a man like Wilson who would betray anyone for money? Try reading the paper sometime, people screw each other for less.

This is not about genre, or characters, or ...all that other stuff.  This is about the plot.

Mordin proves their integrity to the plot.  I'm sure TIM had other choices, but we don't know what those were.  Mordin is essentially ME2's version of Tali in ME1: she provides a plot device, a la plot ticket/Macguffin, to make the plot continue.

We can argue Tali would go and only go with Shepard, because it's Shepard, regardless of ME2's plot.  We cannot say the same of Mordin, however, because he 1) wants the plague cured which is possibly associated with the Collectors, 2) likes science.  His motivations and reasons for joining the Suicide Mission have nothing to do with Shepard.  We know exactly why Mordin and Tali joined; I am not making assumptions. We can then look at all the motivations of each of the characters, and they have nothing to do with Shepard.

The plot itself doesn't really care about Shepard either way.  Whereas in ME1, Shepard was an active protagonist, plot integral, and who had several supporting characters who were necessary toward their/its goal.

You seem to assume that it's only about motivations, and not about the person doing the motivating and presenting the reasons -- which Shep turns out to be pretty good at. 

In the case of Mordin, it also helps that Shep is able to cut chunky path through the Vorcha and save the district almost as an afterthought -- "yeah, no problem, kill a few dozen Vorcha and some Krogan to save these people I've never met, cool, be back in 20 minutes or so."  And he does with a 3-man squad what would normally take a platoon of regular infantry.

Or with Thane, who else but Shep gets through a tower full of well-equiped and remorseless mercs fast enough to beat Thane to his target?  Thane can have confidence that this is someone who gives him a real shot at redemption because he has seen Shep in action.  And he does with a 3-man squad what would normally take a platoon of regular infantry.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 31 août 2010 - 04:36 .