2338 réponses à ce sujet

[HTTP 404]

Catt128 wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

ahh this thread. I still agree with the OP but people dislike that opinion here and Im in the minority feeling that any character who can die will not return as a squad mate in 3.

Lol. Then you'll have a crew of 2.

I think that all characters have two states. Dead or Alive. That's it. I don't think they will include any new squad mates because it's the last game and they want  some closure.

So I guess they will make for each character 2 posible stories. Perhaps a recap of the events, showing some coffins and stuff. Other crew members comenting on it, like Joker's comments about "the old good days".; that's if that crew member died.

It's pretty obvious by now that Liara and VS will be in ME3. I don't think they are going to be like "You know, Shepard... I think I'm going to buy a house in Illium and retire while you fight the Reapers."

Edit: Also, I really hope there is the option to destroy the galaxy or have Shepard dying (again) but now for real.

it would just be easier to create new characters than rewrite multiple scenarios for squadmates in 2 who could have either lived or die.  the obvious 2 that we would know of being Liara and Virmire Survivor which were not squadmates in 2 for a reason....which i think to insure survival for 3.

what would default games look like? If you are right, will default ME3 have any squadmates from 2?

Ive had this argument months ago with others, doesnt change people's minds and I dont expect it to change yours. 

[Marta Rio]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So, the dispute is actually this: Will we have a new squad or calibrations?



You see, if you get all the old squad, they will all be boring like death. And if you get a new squad, it can be easily introduced via its connection to the plot... just like in ME1. And the Normandy dialogue for the new squadmates is easy to write, because they are new.



New = not used up.



Old = used up. Alive/dead, loyal / not loyal, romanced / not romanced, but always used up.

Anything but calibrationnnsss! I don't necessarily agree that all of the characters are completely used up (although honestly what else are you going to talk about with Garrus?), but if you stick all 12 (or 16?) squadmates back in as squadmates, you're going to have to do some dialogue diluting. Which means "calibrations" and lots of them.



People complain about there being a lack of character interaction in ME2 (e.g. minimal intersquad banter on missions, less rich dialogue trees than in ME1), which shows their obvious attachment to the characters. So it's understandable that they want them back for ME3. But it's a catch-22: you want meaningful interaction with your favorite squaddie, thus you want them as a fully-fledged squadmate. But if Bioware puts them in as a fully-fledged squadmate, then they have to water down that interaction to some extent. Or they'll have to water down something else (*cough* the plot *cough*).

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

A.N.A.N wrote...

Shepard (see: Commander Shepard) is vital (plot integral) to ME1.
-They receive the Prothean Vision
-They receive the Cipher
-Along with Liara's meld, without these things, the plot cannot continue (see: Ilos.)

It is not a meaningless distinction. Read above.

I am not complaining. I am stating facts. Although I do admit to making simple observatiosn to a protagonist and how their value is necessary for the plot. I have no idea what you're referring to in "complaining that the protagonist in a play is on stage."

Except "anyone" could do the above, exactly the same as in ME2. Shepard is just there at the right time and makes (mostly) the right decisions (in-universe. All decisions that a player can make are 'correct')

After the Prothean Vision, how can anyone then get the Cipher?  And how can anyone then meld with Liara to have her figure out Ilos?

If you're referring to Shepard at the beginning, then yes, it could be Commander Jeff, or Commander Stacy, or whoever.  That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying, as soon as Shepard receives the Prothean Vision, Shepard and only Shepard can make the plot advance.  That makes them plot integral.

This is a more intrinsic quality to Shepard: they're the Vision & Cipher Bearer.  As opposed to external plot devices, like MacGuffins or some such, where you can make a hopefully reasonable argument on other persons doing the hand-offs.  Either way, once those plot devices are used up, their use as being plot integral is finished, but that doesn't make them any less vital.

Again, though, in your criticism of ME1 you've established a standard by which anyone could have had the vision from the beacon, and then go through the chain of events leading to Ilos.

It's not an intrinsic quality to Shephard, anyone could have been there at that moment and location. 

Or maybe there actually is something special about Shep that has nothing to do with the beacon, and most people would have failed to stop the Geth and and Saren and Sovereign, because most people wouldn't be capable of doing the things Shep does.

[GeoFukari]

I'm done with this thread.

We are no longer on topic.

And I am sick of the Trolls.

So.... Good Luck Comrades.

[Killjoy Cutter]

GeoFukari wrote...

I'm done with this thread.
We are no longer on topic.
And I am sick of the Trolls.
So.... Good Luck Comrades.

I think it started because someone said that none of the NPCs are vital to the plot... and then someone said the same about Shepherd.. 

or whatever.

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Again, though, in your criticism of ME1 you've established a standard by which anyone could have had the vision from the beacon, and then go through the chain of events leading to Ilos.

I haven't established any standard, you fool.  Now you're just arguing for the sake of it, without even understanding wtf I'm even writing.  This makes you a moron.  Since I'm not a moron, let me explain this standard you might be referring to.

Liara comments that a lesser mind would be destroyed by the Prothean Beacon, and that Shepard is very strong-willed. In order for such a strong minded person to get to this position, they'd have to be Chosen by Udina, Anderson and Hacket.  So, it must be, someone who is equally or more strong willed then Shepard, to be a Beacon and Cipher bearer, on top of being the Chosen.

It's not an intrinsic quality to Shephard, anyone could have been there at that moment and location. 

Except it was either Shepard, Ashley or Kaidan.  Shepard, being the crazy Commanding Officer they are, jumps in to save either.  So it can only be someone like Shepard who is: 1) Chosen by the 3, 2) Having a very strong willed mind.

It cannot be Ash/Kaidan, not because they're possibly strong willed, but because they can variably get killed later in the story.

Or maybe there actually is something special about Shep that has nothing to do with the beacon, and most people would have failed to stop the Geth and and Saren and Sovereign, because most people wouldn't be capable of doing the things Shep does.

Nope.  If Shepard never had that vision with the beacon, never had the cipher, and never melded with Liara, ME1 would never happen, and the cycle of destruction would've happened without a hitch.

This is not about that special, incomprehensible, warm fuzzy feeling we get when we think of things.  This is about the plot.  In ME1's plot, after a certain point, only Shepard is capable of doing all those things.  They become a walking plot device, something like a box of plot coupons (Visions, Cipher, Liara melding.)  Once a character becomes a plot device, they are integral (as opposed to external plot devices where possible arguments can be made for substituting characters.)

[Fiery Phoenix]

Smud, in ME2, you can actually ask TIM about this (during your very first meeting with him, pre-Freedom's Progress). I believe Shepard says something like "You could've trained an entire army for this. Why bring ME back?", to which TIM responds by saying that Shepard killed a Reaper, and the Reapers have to "respect" that or something.

I don't intend to prove or disprove anything by that; just saying what we're talking about right now (Shepard and her relevance to the plot) is actually brought up in-game (well, sort of, at least).

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 01 septembre 2010 - 07:32 .

[glacier1701]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, in ME2, you can actually ask TIM about this (during your very first meeting with him, pre-Freedom's Progress). I believe Shepard says something like "You could've trained an entire army for this. Why bring ME back?", to which TIM responds by saying that Shepard killed a Reaper, and the Reapers have to "respect" that or something.

I don't intend to prove or disprove anything by that; just saying what we're talking about right now (Shepard and her relevance to the plot) is actually brought up in-game (well, sort of, at least).

For all that Shepard is still not plot integral which is a shame considering how integral to much of the plot Shepard was in ME1. Quite frankly Joker is more integral to the plot than Shepard is because without Joker everyone would have been a smear on some of the space debris once you came out on the other side of the Omega-4 relay.

[MrCasperTom]

But surely is ME1 someone else could be in Shepards place, thus activating the beacon etc.



Which is basically what's being argued for ME2

[Killjoy Cutter]

smudboy wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Again, though, in your criticism of ME1 you've established a standard by which anyone could have had the vision from the beacon, and then go through the chain of events leading to Ilos.

I haven't established any standard, you fool.  Now you're just arguing for the sake of it, without even understanding wtf I'm even writing.  This makes you a moron.  Since I'm not a moron, let me explain this standard you might be referring to.

Snrk.  You crack me up, smudboy. 

It might not be intentional, but you have established a standard for ME2, that conflicts with what you're saying about ME1. 

smudboy wrote...

Liara comments that a lesser mind would be destroyed by the Prothean Beacon, and that Shepard is very strong-willed. In order for such a strong minded person to get to this position, they'd have to be Chosen by Udina, Anderson and Hacket.  So, it must be, someone who is equally or more strong willed then Shepard, to be a Beacon and Cipher bearer, on top of being the Chosen.

It's not an intrinsic quality to Shephard, anyone could have been there at that moment and location. 

Except it was either Shepard, Ashley or Kaidan.  Shepard, being the crazy Commanding Officer they are, jumps in to save either.  So it can only be someone like Shepard who is: 1) Chosen by the 3, 2) Having a very strong willed mind.

It cannot be Ash/Kaidan, not because they're possibly strong willed, but because they can variably get killed later in the story.

Or maybe there actually is something special about Shep that has nothing to do with the beacon, and most people would have failed to stop the Geth and and Saren and Sovereign, because most people wouldn't be capable of doing the things Shep does.

Nope.  If Shepard never had that vision with the beacon, never had the cipher, and never melded with Liara, ME1 would never happen, and the cycle of destruction would've happened without a hitch.

This is not about that special, incomprehensible, warm fuzzy feeling we get when we think of things.  This is about the plot.  In ME1's plot, after a certain point, only Shepard is capable of doing all those things.  They become a walking plot device, something like a box of plot coupons (Visions, Cipher, Liara melding.)  Once a character becomes a plot device, they are integral (as opposed to external plot devices where possible arguments can be made for substituting characters.)

Well, having gone through what he did in ME1, and become integral, Shep is still integral to ME2.  Having been the "hero" of ME1, he now has to be the central figure of the events of ME2, precisely because of how and why he was integral to the events of ME1.

[glacier1701]

MrCasperTom wrote...

But surely is ME1 someone else could be in Shepards place, thus activating the beacon etc.

Which is basically what's being argued for ME2

Not quite. Until the beacon activation you could have had a number of people instead of Shepard as the individual doesnt matter so long as they were of Specter caliber. However ONCE the beacon is activated then until the full meaning of the vision and location of The Conduit is discovered should Shepard die the plot cannot advance any further. Thus Shepard (or any of the potential Specter candidates if it happened to be one of those chosen instead of Shepard) is plot integral. In ME2 it does not matter if Shepard should die at any point as any reasonably competent leader could take over because there is NO 'plot' device that only Shepard has. At any point everyone has the same info that Shepard has. So hence the difference. 

Kiljoy, being a "HERO" is not a plot device that makes anyone integral. Anderson is also a HERO but is he integral to the plot? By your definition he is yet he only has a few lines and nothing said there means anything.

Modifié par glacier1701, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:46 .

[smudboy]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Smud, in ME2, you can actually ask TIM about this (during your very first meeting with him, pre-Freedom's Progress). I believe Shepard says something like "You could've trained an entire army for this. Why bring ME back?", to which TIM responds by saying that Shepard killed a Reaper, and the Reapers have to "respect" that or something.

I don't intend to prove or disprove anything by that; just saying what we're talking about right now (Shepard and her relevance to the plot) is actually brought up in-game (well, sort of, at least).

Sorry, about what?  This seems completely off topic.

(TIM's reasoning, as we know, is deluded.)

In ME1, Udina, Hacket and Anderson have reasons for selecting Shepard (depending on your backstory.)
Udina: "Is that the kind of person we want protecting the galaxy?"
Anderson: "That's the only kind of person who can protect the galaxy."

Shepard is Chosen for political reasonings of getting a human introduced into the Specters.  This is to be proven in the field through Nihlus' backing, eventually to make humanity look good to the Council in hopes of getting a seat on it. This is through some important mission to Eden Prime: transport a beacon back to the Citadel, where everyone can spill some drinks and pat humans on their space armored ass.  But things go terribly amiss.  Shepard proves themselves as a protector of the galaxy, becomes a Spectre, gets humanity a seat on the Council/controls the Council, and seemingly convinces them of the great threat the universe is facing.

Compare this to TIM and Miranda's reasons for the Chosen:

TIM: "Our sacrifices have earned the Council's gratitude, but Shepard remains our best hope."
TIM: "Humans may control the council, but Shepard remains our best hope." (for what?)
Miranda: "...The Reapers are still out there."
TIM: "And it's up to us to stop them." (oh.)
Miranda: "...But Shepard.  They'll (the Council) follow him.  He's a hero, a bloody icon." (no they won't)
Miranda: "But he's just one man.  If we lose Shepard, humanity might well follow." (ah, wait, why?)
TIM: "Then see to it that we don't lose him."

Shepard goes boom because Joker's an ass and Shepard doesn't know how to climb through circular doors, and explosions make Shepard go toward them.  Cerberus makes Shepard go Jesus.  Now let's look at TIM's ramblings.

TIM: "That one man -- one very specific man -- might be all that stands before humanity, and the greatest threat of our brief existence." (Okay, so it's Shepard, right?  Because he's got the whole Visions and Cipher, right?  Because the Reapers are Coming, right? And there's something special about those Visions, right?)
TIM: "We need Shepard.  Just as you were when you defeated Sovereign." (Why?  The Visions and Cipher, right?)
TIM: "You've seen it yourself, you've bested all of them.  That's just one reason we chose you." (So you brought back a guy from the dead because he shot Saren till he was molecules?  How about the impending doom thing in his head?  Maybe it'll tell us when they'll be coming next, and how?)
TIM: "You're unique. Not just in ability or what you've experienced, but in what you represent." (The Last Vision Bearer?  The Last Cipher Bearer?  The living human of Prothean data?  A guy with a gun?)
TIM: "You stood for humanity at a key moment.  You're more than a soldier -- you're a symbol." (Right, but he was a corpse.  Why bring back a hero from the dead?  What was so pivotal about him?)
TIM: "And I don't know if the Reapers understand fear, but you killed one.  They have to respect that." (Nope.  Reapers see humans as nothing.)
TIM: "You always have a choice Shepard.  If you don't find the evidence we're both looking for, we can part ways." (Why can't we part ways now, regardless of the evidence?  So you went to all that effort, just to bring him back, but if Shepard doesn't find anything on Freedom's Progress, he can just go his merry way?  What? Wouldn't it have been smarter to establish the threat first, then take steps to deal with it?  What convoluted line of logic is this: we start to bring a hero back from the dead.  We then have no clues as to what's going on with these colonies disappearing, but the very day Shepard gets revived, it's exposition time?)

It would've been quite more interesting, and meaningful, if Cerberus figured out it was the Collectors long before Shepard came back, and they had already attempted to stop them, but failed.  Something about...being...indoctrinated, having their contracted mercenary leaders try and fail countless times, because they did not have strong enough minds to take on the Collectors mind control, or something.  Maybe something to do with Prothean Technology/Visions that only Shepard has, and has thus been able to combat this effect.

So I don't exactly know the specific reasons why TIM brought Shepard back, but none of these reasons are proven: unless he really wanted Shepard to get discounts at stores.  Compare that to the simplicity of Chosen status ME1, its proof, and what Shepard, and only Shepard, actually does.

Modifié par smudboy, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[smudboy]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
Snrk.  You crack me up, smudboy. 

It might not be intentional, but you have established a standard for ME2, that conflicts with what you're saying about ME1. 

I keep laughing at your stupidity.  I know it's not ignorance.

Well, having gone through what he did in ME1, and become integral, Shep is still integral to ME2.  Having been the "hero" of ME1, he now has to be the central figure of the events of ME2, precisely because of how and why he was integral to the events of ME1.

1. Shepard is only integral in several scenes.  After knowing the location to Ilos, he is not.
2. Prove to me where Shepard is integral to ME2.
3. Being the "hero" of ME1 does not make them integral to the central events of ME2, for several reasons (he was a corpse, the Chosen status is not proven, Shepard does nothing in ME2 no one else could've done.)

Once again you aren't proving anything.  You're just saying "Shepard is integral to ME2 because he was in ME1."  That doesn't even make sense.

Explain, clearly, in detail, how Shepard is integral to the plot of ME2.  Then I'll stop calling you a moron.  Cause right now, all I'm reading is "Waaaaaaaaah, I love ME2, smudboy is making me sadface."

[HTTP 404]

aside from my bad impression of smudboy, he brings up good points. I think the argument, Smudboy, is that Shepard is a hero, "a bloody icon" that in itself is reason to bring shepard back. ITs good Cerberus PR if anything.

[lazuli]

The reapers are specifically interested in Shepard. The Illusive Man used this to gain the upper hand at Horizon. Whether or not this makes Shepard integral to the plot is, of course, debatable.



Additionally, there are mentions of Shepard being a natural leader throughout the series. It's how he is able to assemble a team to take on the Collectors. You are free to reject this, but I don't think many people could get a team like Shepard's together and keep it running.

[Fiery Phoenix]

lazuli wrote...

The reapers are specifically interested in Shepard. The Illusive Man used this to gain the upper hand at Horizon. Whether or not this makes Shepard integral to the plot is, of course, debatable.

I'm actually looking forward to Smud's response to that particular bit.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 01 septembre 2010 - 09:42 .

[smudboy]

lazuli wrote...
The reapers are specifically interested in Shepard. The Illusive Man used this to gain the upper hand at Horizon. Whether or not this makes Shepard integral to the plot is, of course, debatable.

After Horizon:
Shepard: "Ash said the Alliance got a tip about me and Cerberus.  Was that you?"
TIM: "I may have let it slip that you were alive and with Cerberus."
Shepard: "You risked the lives of my friend, my crew and that entire colony, just to lure the Collectors there?"
TIM: "A calculated risk.  I suspected the Collectors were looking for you, or people connected to you.  Now I know for certain."

This just means TIM read the script in advance (plot: contrived mess.)  Notice how this has nothing to do with the reason as to why TIM and Miranda wanted Shepard, or wanted Shepard rebuilt.  We are never told beforehand, or after, as to why the Collectors/Reapers want Shepard/Shepard's body.  We still don't know.

Although the ripped Liara dialog says otherwise.  Who knows what'll happen with LOTSB.  Regardless, it's absolutely ridiculous to have optional content, try and explain wtf was going on in the narrative toward the existence of the protagonist, by some other party, as an optional question to ask your boss why he's even involved (let alone brought back from the dead.)

Additionally, there are mentions of Shepard being a natural leader throughout the series. It's how he is able to assemble a team to take on the Collectors. You are free to reject this, but I don't think many people could get a team like Shepard's together and keep it running.

And Miranda is a genetically modified natural leader.  Apparently so is Jacob (!)  And Garrus.  Anyone can assemble this team, I'd argue, without such leadership qualities, for a suicide mission, but that's just how I read every conversation (drop of a hat, turn on a dime, let's all get killed on the Cerberbus.)

Everyone would get on the team regardless of Shepard, and anyone could keep it running, considering there are only 2 optional instances were a fight breaks out.  Everyone else just sits or stands in their part of the ship.

[MrCasperTom]

smudboy wrote...
After Horizon:
Shepard: "Ash said the Alliance got a tip about me and Cerberus.  Was that you?"
TIM: "I may have let it slip that you were alive and with Cerberus."
Shepard: "You risked the lives of my friend, my crew and that entire colony, just to lure the Collectors there?"
TIM: "A calculated risk.  I suspected the Collectors were looking for you, or people connected to you.  Now I know for certain."

This just means TIM read the script in advance (plot: contrived mess.)  Notice how this has nothing to do with the reason as to why TIM and Miranda wanted Shepard, or wanted Shepard rebuilt.  We are never told beforehand, or after, as to why the Collectors/Reapers want Shepard/Shepard's body.  We still don't know.

While I think you have some good explanations of your view, I can easily see why we wouldn't know. You can't really expect:

*phone rings*
Harbringer: Hey TIM. Just thought I would let you know. You know the whole chasing after Shepard thing in a race against the Shadow Broker. Yeah that's cause we want to make them into Shep burgers. Apparantly the infusion of the Prothean Beacons (btw that's our beacons, but that's later on don't mind me) combined with a bit of squishing and wheat (I believe you sometime call them baps) heightens us Reapers ten-fold. Seriously it's like we've just taken 1000 years worth of steroids for a couple of bites. Anyway catch ya later TIM.
TIM:

[HTTP 404]

I have the pretty much the same questions as you do Smudboy. I hope ME3 addresses this. All to often as gamers we accept that our character is automatically the one for the job. The question is how does Cerberus know that as well?



What is the true value of Shepard to Cerberus and to the Reapers? Reapers wanting revenge is one thing, its quite another to want his dead corpse.



The only explanation reminds me of Chuck Norris sayings. Shepard kicks ass! but thats pretty shallow reason. ME1 explained Shepard's importance very well, the info from the beacon and SPECTRE status, right place, right time. IN me2, Cerberus created the Right place and right time by creating Shepard. Fantastic! but how did they know Shepard was the one(only) for the job? Can TIM look into the future??



I dont think I am as cynical as Smudboy but I think (hope) its fully addressed in ME3. Oh well.

[xlavaina]

I tried to stop this nonsense three days ago, but nobody seemed to notice my post. I will try again:

xlavaina wrote...
Guys, why don't we just stop arguing? I think what people are trying to say is that Shepard is obviously critical to the story in the sense that you need a character to step into the shoes of, and someone that everyone looks upon as a hero, but also that the story revolves around the characters much more than it does around you. Basically, Shepard is the protagonist, but would be nothing without the characters that support him. So basically, both sides of this dispute are correct, so please stop arguing, it hurts the thread.

[lazuli]

smudboy wrote...
And Miranda is a genetically modified natural leader.  Apparently so is Jacob (!)  And Garrus.  Anyone can assemble this team, I'd argue, without such leadership qualities, for a suicide mission, but that's just how I read
every conversation (drop of a hat, turn on a dime, let's all get killed on the Cerberbus.)

Everyone would get on the team regardless of Shepard, and anyone could keep it running, considering there are only 2 optional instances were a fight breaks out.  Everyone else just sits or stands in their part of the ship.

I would argue that you're not giving Shepard enough credit.  Not just anyone could lead this group, especially with a shady connection to Cerberus.  Certain squadmates would probably fall into step, but others would not (Garrus, Tali, Legion, Jack, more?).  The squad would be incomplete, leading to an imperfect result in the suicide mission (no Thanix Cannon, no Multicore Shielding).  I believe that the plot of Mass Effect 2, at least from Shepard's perspective, revolves around assembling a team to counter a vague threat.  I also believe that only Shepard is capable of assembling this team.  Therefore, I find Shepard to be integral to the plot.

That said, I like your Cerberbus comment.

Modifié par lazuli, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[GeoFukari]

Are you guys still arguing about this?!



Whether or not Shepard is important to the plot does not matter. HE JUST IS. It is the way BioWare made it. No changing it.

[HTTP 404]

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
And Miranda is a genetically modified natural leader.  Apparently so is Jacob (!)  And Garrus.  Anyone can assemble this team, I'd argue, without such leadership qualities, for a suicide mission, but that's just how I read
every conversation (drop of a hat, turn on a dime, let's all get killed on the Cerberbus.)

Everyone would get on the team regardless of Shepard, and anyone could keep it running, considering there are only 2 optional instances were a fight breaks out.  Everyone else just sits or stands in their part of the ship.

I would argue that you're not giving Shepard enough credit.  Not just anyone could lead this group, especially with a shady connection to Cerberus.  Certain squadmates would probably fall into step, but others would not (Garrus, Tali, Legion, Jack, more?).  The squad would be incomplete, leading to an imperfect result in the suicide mission (no Thanix Cannon, no Multicore Shielding).  I believe that the plot of Mass Effect 2, at least from Shepard's perspective, revolves around assembling a team to counter a vague threat.  I also believe that only Shepard is capable of assembling this team.  Therefore, I find Shepard to be integral to the plot.

That said, I like your Cerberbus comment.

ah but that is what we gamers know about Shepard inherently.  What the question is how does TIM know that as well?

[azerSheppard]

HTTP 404 wrote...

lazuli wrote...

smudboy wrote...
And Miranda is a genetically modified natural leader.  Apparently so is Jacob (!)  And Garrus.  Anyone can assemble this team, I'd argue, without such leadership qualities, for a suicide mission, but that's just how I read
every conversation (drop of a hat, turn on a dime, let's all get killed on the Cerberbus.)

Everyone would get on the team regardless of Shepard, and anyone could keep it running, considering there are only 2 optional instances were a fight breaks out.  Everyone else just sits or stands in their part of the ship.

I would argue that you're not giving Shepard enough credit.  Not just anyone could lead this group, especially with a shady connection to Cerberus.  Certain squadmates would probably fall into step, but others would not (Garrus, Tali, Legion, Jack, more?).  The squad would be incomplete, leading to an imperfect result in the suicide mission (no Thanix Cannon, no Multicore Shielding).  I believe that the plot of Mass Effect 2, at least from Shepard's perspective, revolves around assembling a team to counter a vague threat.  I also believe that only Shepard is capable of assembling this team.  Therefore, I find Shepard to be integral to the plot.

That said, I like your Cerberbus comment.

ah but that is what we gamers know about Shepard inherently.  What the question is how does TIM know that as well?

TIM values Shepards past, he himself explains that Shepard is an example of what humans can achieve. He also says that Causing Sovereigns destruction has made him be feared by the reapers or at the very least piqued their interest.

That is the sole reason Shepard was revived. He is important as a leading character who was involved with Sovereigns death and the protection of the galaxy from the return of the reapers. None is saying that his prowess were absolutely neccesary in the fight against the collectors, but his "fame" and leadership were.

[pjotroos]

Since the thread isn't about Shepard but the crew, I'll just stick my three pennies worth on topic. Sorry if it's reiterating something others said, I couldn't physically plow through all 80 pages, but I'd like to have some chat about companions nonetheless.

In my opinion, best option would be a repeat of what happened in ME2, only in different quanitities. In other words - something old, something new. Some people say all the possible topics to discuss with the old guys were exhausted, but I don't buy it. You can always talk about what happened in the years between the games, and about the current events. Comforting each other, keeping spirits up can be more fun that finding out about mean daddy genecist. In fact, one of the best companion dialogues in "Mass Effect 2" comes from a returning character. Yeps, reach and flexibility.

I believe Liara was saved for a reason, and that similarly Kaidan or Ashley are going to return for the final part. Their classes are completely different, but that's no big issue since you only take 2 people to a mission, and your own class is as much of a variable.

From Mass Effect 2, obviously not everyone can come back. Hiring all those actors again for full time job, in addition to all the new people, would be bit much. However, there's an easy line to draw - if bit juvenile. Bring back love interests, leave everyone else to cameos. It even makes sense from a technical and storyline point of view:

- Zaeed and Kasumi were DLC characters, which means some people didn't even get to meet them. Their in-game reasoning for joining you was money. Cerberus paid them to help with Omega-4 mission. Now that the mission is over they are free to leave, and they certainly have stuff to do outside of Normandy.

- At least one of Samara and Morinth is dead for everyone. As for character reasoning, Samara offered to join this mission to avoid killing innocent cop working on stupid orders, and only in return for information about Morinth. Her code is the most important thing in her life, though, and even if you play as a paragon character you will take actions that contradict that code - not to mention the fact it's entirely possible to mess up her loyalty mission, which means she still got Morinth to chase. She's got enough reasons to leave you. As for Morinth, she's psychopath. She only steps in her mother's place to save her skin. Early in ME3 you should get the choice to let her go or put her out.

- Mordin is old. Another couple years and he's unfit for duty. Your bonus for keeping him alive, though, could be having him as scientific advisor on board - no more chatty than doctor Chakwas is in either game.

- Grunt could be never let out of the tank. If you did let him out, however, he's either completely taken by the bloodlust, or part of the Urdnot clan. Long enough break in the worthy battles of his battlemaster, and he'll go looking for a fight elsewhere.

- Legion could be sold as soon as you pick him up. As for his motivation for leaving - it's well tricky. On the other hand, he's the only one that could trick death, being part of the hive mind. His story also just about started and there's much left to explore. Perhaps better way  for handling Legion would be having him die early for those that kept him alive, and  bringing him back some time later in another platform, regardless of his story in ME2.

Leaving those six and Wrex out, we're left with 8-man team. But surely Bioware would want to add some new characters. One of the devs said as much. I think it would be between 2 and 4. Hopefully integrated more organically into the plot, so we don't get a redux of part two, and joining us fairly early. Those could be new salarian commando, another spectre, a batarian, or possibly characters we already know - Anderson, Aria, Kal'Reegar (assuming he can't die; I told him to cover me on my renegade and he didn't, hence the guess). Those would not only bring some freshness into the game, they would also ensure that those continuing with Shepard that slaughtered his squad on the Omega-4 mission still got some choices.

Of course, 12 recruits is considerably large posse. It's how much we got in ME2 after getting both DLC characters, and that was a game heavily based on your team. That situation in ME2, however, is what made the squad management so tricky. Implementing team members wasn't just about their dialogues with Shepard on board Normandy and during the campaign. Each of them also required two unique locations for their own missions (one in case of Zaeed and Kasumi) and bucketload of extra dialogues from Meer and Hale for those to record. I believe that's what made the team size problematic. Making ME3 plot more less dependant on companions would allow for maintaining that size without issues.

Someone could say it would make no sense for Bioware to create characters that not everyone got access to, but that's just not true. Just like there's a default scenario for new ME2 characters (new multispiecies council), the default scenario for fresh ME3 games would be those six (and just those six) surviving Omega-4 mission. The bonus for good ME2 imports would be briefly catching up with any of the other seven. Those that import extremely bad characters would still get enough bang for their buck - a crew of six, just like in first part, and consequences of their other choices. Besides, let's be honest, the worst outcomes of ME2 are brewed up on purpose most of the time, by those who play through multiple times exploring all possibilities.

Frankly, I only see two issues with this scenario. One is a backlash from the fans of non-romancable companions. But it's not like the risk of a backlash stopped Bioware from singling out Garrus and Tali for return in ME2. Besides, having mentioned as early as the loading screens in the game that our romance choices can have dire ramnifications on the third part is as good hint of focus at those characters as we'll ever get.

The other issue is character specific. Thane is dying, with only months left appearantly. Logical approach would be letting him die to thin the flock. That's the choice I would go for from the storytelling point of view. Problem is, three other love interests already happen to be most logical choices to keep, possible romance aside. Garrus is our faithful disciple. Miranda and Jacob are soldiers aiming for the same goal as we. Assuming you didn't rat Tali's father out during the trial, she too has every reason to stay with you. If we played our cards right with Jack, we gave her the purpose to live she couldn't find anywhere else. In which case allowing to continue a relationship with 8 out of 9 possible romance options and killing the remaining one would be a risk Bioware probably wouldn't want to take. That's still not ulsovable though. Sure, curing Thane's uncurable disease would be heavy-handed deus ex machina. But he could simply be still dying, just not as fast as he anticipated. Perhaps he was being pesimistic about his odds. Perhaps Mordin found a way to slow down progress of the disease, or some cybernetics helped slowing it down. His demise might be cloused, his breath getting heavier on bad days, but he's still operational.

Anyway, enough of my wall of text. Does it sound good to anyone? 

Modifié par pjotroos, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:17 .