2338 réponses à ce sujet

[Zan Mura]

People post a lot of want this and want that here. This is not about wants, as the OP pointed out, there are some cruel rules of reality at play here. In practice, it's impossible for BW to give significant let alone party companion roles to this many NPC's, all of which may very well be dead. That's just how it is.



I don't like it either, but for your own sake, be prepared for few to zero companions from ME2 to make it as party companions to ME3, and all of them having reduced roles. This is the price for giving such freedom in a story-oriented game. It wouldn't be a problem in something like Fallout 3 where the NPC's are carboard-deep mobs with no personality or story-dependant role of any kind anyway, but in a BW style game, even allowing for the possibility of killing off NPC's carries far reaching consequences.



I have mixed feelings about this myself. On the other hand, I realised to be prepared for this since learning of the final mission of ME2 before even buying the game. It is, after all, the only reasonable conclusion. So I never let myself to invest into them emotionally anyway, which wasn't that hard since - let's be honest here -, most of the ME characters don't have the same depth of personality as the companions did in BG2 or DAO. But on the other hand, I also find it interesting that BW has tried this. It is something new, something undoubtedly amtibious. And in the end will provide a very unique experience where you will FEEL your choices on a personal level by the end of ME3. You will genuinely have known personalities, that lived or died because of your own actions, and had to live with the consequences. If they died, you will KNOW they died because unlike in any other game, in ME you know that it wasn't written and there was nothing you could've done about it. In ME, you know you COULD have saved them, you COULD have helped them, and you COULD be talking with them and laughing with them long after their potential death scenes, long after saving the galaxy and finally getting your vacation and maybe a few blue children.



It will be damned interesting to see what they do with ME3 for sure, even with the unfortunate consequences of your freedom of choice in ME2.

[xlavaina]

Yeah you're right. It will definitely be interesting. The writers certainly have a lot of options, but this is the reason we discuss. We are trying to determine these options and attempt to back them up with our 'evidence' that we can find from the game. I just really hope we get them all back. Call me optimistic but whatever.

[Mr. Man]

armass wrote...

After lotsb who wants a yahg squadmate for ME3?

YES!

[Mr. Man]

Zan Mura wrote...

People post a lot of want this and want that here. This is not about wants, as the OP pointed out, there are some cruel rules of reality at play here. In practice, it's impossible for BW to give significant let alone party companion roles to this many NPC's, all of which may very well be dead. That's just how it is.

I don't like it either, but for your own sake, be prepared for few to zero companions from ME2 to make it as party companions to ME3, and all of them having reduced roles. This is the price for giving such freedom in a story-oriented game. It wouldn't be a problem in something like Fallout 3 where the NPC's are carboard-deep mobs with no personality or story-dependant role of any kind anyway, but in a BW style game, even allowing for the possibility of killing off NPC's carries far reaching consequences.

I have mixed feelings about this myself. On the other hand, I realised to be prepared for this since learning of the final mission of ME2 before even buying the game. It is, after all, the only reasonable conclusion. So I never let myself to invest into them emotionally anyway, which wasn't that hard since - let's be honest here -, most of the ME characters don't have the same depth of personality as the companions did in BG2 or DAO. But on the other hand, I also find it interesting that BW has tried this. It is something new, something undoubtedly amtibious. And in the end will provide a very unique experience where you will FEEL your choices on a personal level by the end of ME3. You will genuinely have known personalities, that lived or died because of your own actions, and had to live with the consequences. If they died, you will KNOW they died because unlike in any other game, in ME you know that it wasn't written and there was nothing you could've done about it. In ME, you know you COULD have saved them, you COULD have helped them, and you COULD be talking with them and laughing with them long after their potential death scenes, long after saving the galaxy and finally getting your vacation and maybe a few blue children.

It will be damned interesting to see what they do with ME3 for sure, even with the unfortunate consequences of your freedom of choice in ME2.

What? I think the ME2 squad is hugely deep, from Tali to Miranda, I loved their personalities. Remember, the second game was devoted mostly to cultivating the perfect team, it would be an utter shame and tons of people would be dissapionted if BW just dropped them from the story or the squad (unless, of course, they died).

[xlavaina]

^ even if they died, though, the player should have to live with the consequences of playing ME3 with only two squad members.

[Zulu_DFA]

xlavaina wrote...

^ even if they died, though, the player should have to live with the consequences of playing ME3 with only two squad members.

AAAnd the consequences, if made right, should be these:

Shepard: TIM, I'm sorry, but I lost my team. I need you to get me a new list of fashion show winners.
TIM [puffs smoke]: Sure.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 septembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[Marta Rio]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

xlavaina wrote...

^ even if they died, though, the player should have to live with the consequences of playing ME3 with only two squad members.

AAAnd the consequences, if made right, should be these:

Shepard: TIM, I'm sorry, but I lost my team. I need you to get me a new list of fashion show winners.
TIM [puffs smoke]: Sure.

But what if you told TIM to stuff it?  Surely Anderson doesn't have access to dossiers of such fabulosity.

[Zulu_DFA]

Marta Rio wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

xlavaina wrote...

^ even if they died, though, the player should have to live with the consequences of playing ME3 with only two squad members.

AAAnd the consequences, if made right, should be these:

Shepard: TIM, I'm sorry, but I lost my team. I need you to get me a new list of fashion show winners.
TIM [puffs smoke]: Sure.

But what if you told TIM to stuff it?  Surely Anderson doesn't have access to dossiers of such fabulosity.

Then he must join himself, of course. With Kahlee Sanders and resurrected Paul Grayson. Sure thing it's one of those 1000 consequences!!!

[FlyinElk212]

You know, the ace-in-the-hole squadmate for ME3 suddenly looks vulnerable.

After playing LotSB, Liara now has a perfectly logical reason for not being able to join Shepard on his crew. Sure, she can inform his crew, maybe even lead Shepard in the right direction for defeating the Reapers. But everyone who's anyone in the Mass Effect Universe says it: Information is power. And right now, Liara has the potential to be the most powerful person in the galaxy. It's just going to take a b****load of time to sort that power.

I'm starting to view her as the new Council/TIM for ME3. You know, a leader or leadgroup that Shepard constantly reports back to who occasionally provides info and leads .

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Mr. Man]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

You know, the ace-in-the-hole squadmate for ME3 suddenly looks vulnerable.

After playing LotSB, Liara now has a perfectly logical reason for not being able to join Shepard on his crew. Sure, she can inform his crew, maybe even lead Shepard in the right direction for defeating the Reapers. But everyone who's anyone in the Mass Effect Universe says it: Information is power. And right now, Liara has the potential to be the most powerful person in the galaxy. It's just going to take a b****load of time to sort that power.

I'm starting to view her as the new Council/TIM for ME3. You know, a leader or leadgroup that Shepard constantly reports back to who occasionally provides info and leads .

She's definatly just as capable as TIM for that role, if not more (Private Army, plus access to more information than anyone in the Galaxy). However I still, think it could be possible for her to go mad with power and eventually betray you. After all, the Old Shadow broker had a deal with the Reapers, whats to say they wouldn't make her the same offer. Still, I hope I'm wrong, I'd much rather have her as an ally, and for the short term, at least, that should be the case.

[xlavaina]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

xlavaina wrote...

^ even if they died, though, the player should have to live with the consequences of playing ME3 with only two squad members.

AAAnd the consequences, if made right, should be these:

Shepard: TIM, I'm sorry, but I lost my team. I need you to get me a new list of fashion show winners.
TIM [puffs smoke]: Sure.

I am actually okay with this. So basically you get to chose between your ME2 squad or your new ME3 squad when completing the suicide mission in ME2. 

[The Big Nothing]

I just want a squad of volus all mentally-challenged like Niftu Cal.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 13 septembre 2010 - 12:57 .

[Harley_Dude]

I went through LotSB again and after watching the vids I think we may be seeing some replacements. The matriarch bartender is looking at what appears to be a picture of Liara and when I went back to talk to her she mentioned she was previously married and had a purebred daughter. I did the relay after LotSB and destroyed the collector base and every squad member agreed with the decision. So maybe if we keep the collector base some of the squad leaves and the new squad will come from the LotSB vids. Aria, Gavorn and a couple of the humans seem possible. I'd give thumbs up for Keeper 20.

[Moiaussi]

There is a valid arguement for it being any surviving ME2 squad members rather than ME1's. Other than the Vermire survivor, the squad were not formally recruited, but more strays picked up along the way. In ME2, everyone was formally recruited.



Also, the ME2 squad were sort of 'sup'd up' version of the ME1 squad. Matriarch rank Asari instead of youngster, Genetically engineered Krogan instead of stray, Genetically engineered human. Former STG. Biotic raised from birth to be an extreme biotic. Even Garrus had 'upgunned' having gotten significant solo experience and his own rep.

[Commander Kurt]

I actually hope that we get a smaller, more interesting squad for ME3. As I said, I would love to see Aria, Kal Reegar and the asari bartender as squadmates in ME3. But I don't think it's likely.



A scenario with some characters, but not all, returning from ME2 is very difficult to imagine. Say that only Tali and Garrus are squadmates in ME3, then what happens to people who killed those two but saved everyone else? I can see consequences for choosing to kill squadmates, but they should not differ that greatly depending on who you killed.



Smudboy, do you feel that I presented valid arguments earlier since you do not reply? I was first afraid that you may have thought that the discussion was beneith you, but I noticed that you do keep arguing with people you call morons and fanboys. I thought the discussion was interesting.

[Flamewielder]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Shepard: TIM, I'm sorry, but I lost my team. I need you to get me a new list of fashion show winners.
TIM [puffs smoke]: Sure.

I can see it in my mind...

Christina Norman also commented that, had they been able to modify the master program files, adding Liara would have been much easier. Given that the team is building a new game with ME3, the task is bound to be easier.

Will the ME3 squad be dominated by new characters? I think so. They are easier to mesh into whatever the main storyline will end up being.

Can a surviving ME2 character come back as a temporary squadmate in an appropriately themed mission? Yes, LotSB demonstrated it was possible as long as he/she's the only ME2 squaddie on the squad to keep the conversations trees simple.

If the relevant ME2 character is dead, Shepard does the mission with 2 ME3 squaddies and you miss out on some conversations/scenes with the dead ME2 squaddie, should the team feel it's worth the effort. I simply hope they do.

[smudboy]

Commander Kurt wrote...

I actually hope that we get a smaller, more interesting squad for ME3. As I said, I would love to see Aria, Kal Reegar and the asari bartender as squadmates in ME3. But I don't think it's likely.

A scenario with some characters, but not all, returning from ME2 is very difficult to imagine. Say that only Tali and Garrus are squadmates in ME3, then what happens to people who killed those two but saved everyone else? I can see consequences for choosing to kill squadmates, but they should not differ that greatly depending on who you killed.

Smudboy, do you feel that I presented valid arguments earlier since you do not reply? I was first afraid that you may have thought that the discussion was beneith you, but I noticed that you do keep arguing with people you call morons and fanboys. I thought the discussion was interesting.

Well let's see:
First paragraph is a hope, or personal opinion on things, which are followed up by being practical about it.
Second paragraph involves returning ME2 characters being difficult to imagine, which directly asks the death question, and the belief that who is dead is streamlined, to say that the outcome doesn't offer great differences.

So, you're being pragmatic about the situation; you've addressed the death issue and were practical in its outcome.  You've stated your preferences, then dismissed them.  I wouldn't call what you put down as arguments, but simple deductions to the very observations most of us have made.

I would recommend coming up with a conclusion, or an opinion on how the ME3 squad may turn out, like Flamewielder's concept:  If alive, then a LOTSB like experience, or a quasi-placeholder.  I object at the quasi-placeholder: it would be useless to simply have a character make an cameo/temp squadmate appearance, when an new ME3 squad member can take its place if they died.  It would imply a non-LOTSB experience, since Liara was constantly talking during this scene, and was pretty much her chance to shine.  Thus, a placeholder character would have to take the place of the intended ME2 character, or else any ME3 squadmembmer would have the lines of the ME2 character (which is compounded by the # of ME3 squadmates there are.)

[Zulu_DFA]

Flamewielder wrote...

Will the ME3 squad be dominated by new characters? I think so. They are easier to mesh into whatever the main storyline will end up being.

Can a surviving ME2 character come back as a temporary squadmate in an appropriately themed mission? Yes, LotSB demonstrated it was possible as long as he/she's the only ME2 squaddie on the squad to keep the conversations trees simple.

If the relevant ME2 character is dead, Shepard does the mission with 2 ME3 squaddies and you miss out on some conversations/scenes with the dead ME2 squaddie, should the team feel it's worth the effort. I simply hope they do.

Agreed.

[Commander Kurt]

smudboy wrote...
I would recommend coming up with a conclusion, or an opinion on how the ME3 squad may turn out, like Flamewielder's concept:  If alive, then a LOTSB like experience, or a quasi-placeholder.  I object at the quasi-placeholder: it would be useless to simply have a character make an cameo/temp squadmate appearance, when an new ME3 squad member can take its place if they died.  It would imply a non-LOTSB experience, since Liara was constantly talking during this scene, and was pretty much her chance to shine.  Thus, a placeholder character would have to take the place of the intended ME2 character, or else any ME3 squadmembmer would have the lines of the ME2 character (which is compounded by the # of ME3 squadmates there are.)

I was refering to the conclusion I posted earlier, the one you did not respond to, but I should have been more clear about that.

I suspect that we will get a squad that is only slightly more involved in the plot than the ME2 squad was. It may seem important that you bring Tali and Legion to a peacehearing for geth and quarian, but the result will probably be the same if you bring someone else (should they be dead). A few extra lines and the joy of playing with them, that's what I think we'll get for saving somebody. This is feasible for the devs to pull off, and would satisfy the fans. 

The ones more integral to the plot will probably be ME1 squad members (Liara/VS).

[nelly21]

I just don't understand people's obssession with retaining all squad members. As I said before, A lot of these characters can grow if they are given the room to do so. I really liked Samara. But I would be more than ok with Samara leaving the squad and getting the Asari to listen about the Reapers. I freaking love Wrex, but I prefer him to lead the Krogans.

The point is, while you get some dialogue and maybe some romantic scenes, keeping these characters in your squad does nothing to further their stories. I don't think Tali will be leaving the squad since there is every possibility that she was exiled. That would mean that over the course of three games, she's still the girl in the engine room.

I trust Bioware because they haven't given me a reason not to fully trust them. They have excellent writers and are one of the few devs out there that try to cater specifically to their fans and not just their "target group". I honestly believe that they are going tobring back a few ME1 and ME2 squad members. My point is, bringing back squad members from ME2 isn't as hard as some people are making it out to be. But should we really want them? Why? So we can have four conversation lines with them and then they spend the rest of the game saying they're too busy?

I think a good mix of old and new squad members would be good.

Modifié par nelly21, 14 septembre 2010 - 01:52 .

[Pedrak]

nelly21 wrote...

I just don't understand people's obssession with retaining all squad members. As I said before, A lot of these characters can grow if they are given the room to do so. I really liked Samara. But I would be more than ok with Samara leaving the squad and getting the Asari to listen about the Reapers. I freaking love Wrex, but I prefer him to lead the Krogans.

The point is, while you get some dialogue and maybe some romantic scenes, keeping these characters in your squad does nothing to further their stories.

Hear, hear!

Forget about how likely/unlikely it is to have all the squad back... I, for one, would find the lack of new interesting party members  - and the "petrification" of the character arcs/development of old ones, stuck as Shep's commandos constantly busy with calibrations - a disappointment. This doesn't mean we have to get rid of all old friends and not see them in ME3 ("Thane's dead, Miranda's busy, here's a mail from Mordin and a postcard from Garrus"), but I'm sure a balance between these two extremes can be found.

Modifié par Pedrak, 14 septembre 2010 - 02:26 .

[tonnactus]

Moondoggie wrote...

Because it'd be like paying for the same game. It'd  feel really cheap to spend near a whole other game recruiting and doing loyalty missions again

And why this should happen with new squadmates?Remember the first game.You just pick some people up and didnt do
any "loyality" missions.

[Guanxii]

Edit: Didn't include passive powers such as "Asari Scientist", etc to save room.

 Soldier: 
1. Ashley† (1st) 
-Adrenaline Rush 
-Armor Piercing Ammo
-Disrupter Ammo 
-unlockable: Overkill

2. Grunt* (2nd) 
-Concussive Shot 
-Incendiary Ammo 
-Cryo Ammo 
-unlockable: Fortification 

Infiltrator: 
3. Legion 2.0* (1st) 
-Tactical Cloaking 
-AI Hacking 
-Combat Drone 
-unlockable: Geth Shield Boost 

4. TBA† (2nd) 
-TBA
-Incinerate
-Disrupter Ammo
-unlockable: TBA 

Engineer: 
5. Tali† (1st) 
-Combat Drone 
-AI Hacking 
-Overload 
-unlockable: Energy Drain 

6. Mordin* (2nd) 
-Incinerate 
-Cryo Blast 
-TBA
-unlockable: Neural Shock 

Sentinel: 
7. Kaidan* (1st) 
-Tech Armor 
-Stasis 
-Throw 
-unlockable: Sabotage 

8. Miranda† (2nd) 
-Warp 
-Overload 
-Cryo Blast 
-unlockable: Slam 

Adept: 
9. Liara† (1st) 
-Singularity 
- Warp 
-Shockwave
-unlockable: Stasis 

10. Thane* (2nd) 
-Warp 
-Throw 
-Warp Ammo
-unlockable: Shredder Ammo 

Vanguard: 
11. Jack† (1st) 
-Charge 
-Shockwave 
-Pull 
-unlockable: Warp Ammo 

12. Jacob* (2nd) 
-Pull 
-Incendiary Ammo 
-Cryo Ammo 
-unlockable: Barrier 

----

13. Garrus*
-Concussive Shot 
-Overload 
-Shredder Ammo 
-unlockable: Armor Piercing Ammo 


*Male 
†Female 


Notes: 


1. Based on the assumption of a minimum of 6 characters, a maximum of 12 (for those who didn't import or receive casualties during the SM; 2 characters from Mass Effect (Liara + Ashley/Kaidan) + 2 characters from Mass Effect 2 which survived (minimum requirement to import) + 2 characters from Mass Effect 3 (Legion 2.0 + new alien female lead) + Whoever else who survived the SM.

2. Legion 2.0 replaces stock Legion upgraded with geth infiltrator (cloaking) abilities with fixed and upgraded Hunter armor. Source: Geth can't die, memories simply re-uploaded from the Geth neural network.

3. 1st/2nd refer to whichever character in that respective class who wields the primary class power such as tactical cloaking for infiltrators, etc. Both characters in each class split the 5 class powers with one misc slot remaining (not including their unique loyalty powers). 

4. Notice a perfect split of male and female in all six classes with the exception of (asexual) Legion in place of Garrus in the infiltrator slot. 

5. Garrus is unique: while loosely based on the infiltrator class his overpowered combat (concussive shot [soldier only]) and tech powers (overload [sentinel, engineer only]) over-compensate for the lack of either Ashley (soldier) or Kaidan (sentinel) in all games.

6. Zaeed, Kasumi and Samara/Morinth were placeholders for Ashley, Kaidan (overload), a new alien female infiltrator and Liara respectively

7. Under this carefully managed arrangement all unique ammo powers are unlockable in advanced training while all ammo powers have 2 squad slots across the spread to compensate for potential death of related character:

Disrupter Ammo 2
Incendiary Ammo 2
Cryo Ammo 2
Armor Piercing Ammo 2
Warp Ammo 2
Shredder Ammo 2


Pull 2
Throw 2
Shockwave 2
Stasis 2
Concussive Shot 2
Incinerate 2
Cryo Blast 2
AI Hacking 2
Attack Drones 2
Warp 3
Overload 3, etc.

Modifié par Guanxii, 16 septembre 2010 - 01:30 .

[Elyvern]

For all you know, they could revamp the classes and powers again, thus rendering your wall of text ineffectual.

[Guanxii]

Elyvern wrote...

For all you know, they could revamp the classes and powers again, thus rendering your wall of text ineffectual.

Sure, that's a distinct possibility, i'm just extrapolating on how the squad could look if they take the existing powers system further from 30-60 (lvls. 1-6) by for example adding an extra slot to each squadmate and in effect splitting the class powers between sets of two characters (of both sexes).

I think this is probably quite close to how that would look if BioWare are going in this direction.

Modifié par Guanxii, 15 septembre 2010 - 08:32 .