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[Dem0nS1ayer]

I wish that the campaign was still single player, but that there was a multiplayer server that players could go on and make 4-player parties. That way, they could go on multiplayer quests and travel to new areas in the world.

[Mykel54]

Dem0nS1ayer wrote...

I wish that the campaign was still single player, but that there was a multiplayer server that players could go on and make 4-player parties. That way, they could go on multiplayer quests and travel to new areas in the world.

What you describe is called MMORPG. Maintaining a server cost money, adding new content cost money, do you want to pay a monthy fee? Play a MMORPG if that is what you want.

[Saibh]

Mykel54 wrote...

Dem0nS1ayer wrote...

I wish that the campaign was still single player, but that there was a multiplayer server that players could go on and make 4-player parties. That way, they could go on multiplayer quests and travel to new areas in the world.

What you describe is called MMORPG. Maintaining a server cost money, adding new content cost money, do you want to pay a monthy fee? Play a MMORPG if that is what you want.

Well, no. That's co-op. Four people isn't massive. Still.

This is a single-player game. BioWare does single-player experiences best. I would really rather not the single-player's resources be siphoned away by a multiplayer. Because either they put few resources in, and suddenly it's a crap multiplayer and a complete waste of time, or they put a lot in and it's detracted significantly from the single-player experience.

[Dave of Canada]

Multiplayer would be like Bioshock 2. People play it for a week until barely anybody plays it because they went back to their usual MP games, leaving us with a half-assed single player and dead multiplayer.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 08 novembre 2010 - 09:19 .

[In Exile]

Saibh wrote...
Well, no. That's co-op. Four people isn't massive. Still.

This is a single-player game. BioWare does single-player experiences best. I would really rather not the single-player's resources be siphoned away by a multiplayer. Because either they put few resources in, and suddenly it's a crap multiplayer and a complete waste of time, or they put a lot in and it's detracted significantly from the single-player experience.

You still need a new UI. And a server. And potentially balance. And 4 player content. It takes work to do that;  a multiplayer client doesn't magically appear. And IMO, it's just not worth it in an SP game.

[Saibh]

In Exile wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Well, no. That's co-op. Four people isn't massive. Still.

This is a single-player game. BioWare does single-player experiences best. I would really rather not the single-player's resources be siphoned away by a multiplayer. Because either they put few resources in, and suddenly it's a crap multiplayer and a complete waste of time, or they put a lot in and it's detracted significantly from the single-player experience.

You still need a new UI. And a server. And potentially balance. And 4 player content. It takes work to do that;  a multiplayer client doesn't magically appear. And IMO, it's just not worth it in an SP game.

Oh, I know, of course--I'm simply saying that it's not an MMORPG.

I still debate to myself whether I think TOR will be worth it. I somehow have the feeling that BioWare stamp will make me crack, man...

[Estel78]

Saibh wrote...

I would really rather not the single-player's resources be siphoned away by a multiplayer. Because either they put few resources in, and suddenly it's a crap multiplayer and a complete waste of time, or they put a lot in and it's detracted significantly from the single-player experience.

Or you invest over $100 million like in the case of The Old Republic. 

Modifié par Estel78, 08 novembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[In Exile]

Estel78 wrote...
Or you invest over $100 million like in the case of The Old Republic. 

I really hope that insane project doesn't bankrupt Bioware. It would be a shame.

[Lord_Valandil]

There should be a punishment for reviving threads like this one.

Like...maybe, being forced to be kissed by Schmooples. Or Oghren.

[Estel78]

In Exile wrote...

Estel78 wrote...
Or you invest over $100 million like in the case of The Old Republic. 

I really hope that insane project doesn't bankrupt Bioware. It would be a shame.

Well, there really are two companies behind the project, EA and Lucasarts, i think they'd survive a flop. Of course i hope it doesn't flop. The less success a group (Bioware in this case) has within a conglomerate, the more it runs the risk of parent company meddling.

Modifié par Estel78, 08 novembre 2010 - 09:54 .

[Maverick827]

Lord_Valandil wrote...

Like...maybe, being forced to be kissed by Schmooples. Or Oghren.

Or being forced to watch Oghren kiss Schmooples.

I think such a thing can exist.  In theory, if you take what Dragon Age 2 will eventually be and simply add the "resources" to make a post-campaign multiplayer experience, then you wouldn't be missing out on anything as far as single player is concerned; your portion of the pie would still be the same, you just would happen to want the new servings of pie that have been added to the plate as well. =)

This is basically what Guild Wars was in a rudimentary sense, actually.  You could hire "henchmen" to party with you through the game's leveling zones, which were instanced modules, and could essentially solo to the level cap.  Now, add a more engaging storyline, have those henchmen be fully fleshed characters...it's not impossibly by any stretch of the imagination.

I think TOR will work out very well and will hopefully usher in a new age of RPG co-op gameplay.  If you decide to succumb to the dark side of MMOs, Saibh, you're more than welcome to join my merry band of MMOers; we're not all elitist jerks who will berate players for standing in the fire and dying on easy encounters like n00bs.

I swear I never say the word "n00b" outside of satire.

Modifié par Maverick827, 08 novembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[PsychoBlonde]

I would definately want to see Bioware deliver on a multiplayer RPG experience, far from the MMO scene, though I admit it may be hard to find a market for that one nowadays. I fondly reminisce about the days when we used to play Icewind Dale I and II co-op, all six of us, high-school buddies. It was great, getting in one room with the notebooks, drinks and all, staying till the wee hours of the morning.... ahhhh.....

I just want to comment on this, even though it's way back at the beginning.  There may be numerous fundamental reason why multiplayer non-mmo games are becoming super-mega-rare in the RPG genre.

1.  It's not like the old days where games like Diablo were considered equally "RPG's".  The genres have become a lot more narrow and firmly-defined due to the many, many more vocal Nerds Arguing About It Online.
2.  In order to distinguish themselves from other genres, modern "real" RPG's have push forward in a lot of areas that don't really contribute much to multiplayer non-MMO's, i.e. story, immersion, realistic graphics/animations, etc.  I'm sorry, but I totally would NOT enjoy DA: O if EVERY TIME I wanted to make a choice about where to go or what to do, I had to argue with 3 other people about it.  NO FRIGGIN WAY.  I would quit and play through the game by myself after 2 minutes of this.
3.  These areas also create HUGE resource-sinks for the machines of players, which may make multiplayer incredibly prohibitive just from a technology standpoint.
4.  Development budgets are skyrocketing, which means that extraneous features are being pared away as fast as they can be to keep costs under control.
5.  The industry has no incentive whatsoever to see you get MORE bang for your buck out of a game.  Quite the opposite, in fact--they want to get you to pay as much as you're willing to for as few features as they can manage.  If you want generosity-inspired features like the toolset to make a comeback, chase down the people you know who pirate the game and MAKE THEM BUY COPIES.  Otherwise, resign yourself to the equillibrium being more in favor of pared-down games.

The way this was even phrased is highly suspect.  If you played the NwN single-player campaign through on multi-player, it sucked.  It could be a major pain just to make sure that everyone had the proper quests and could complete them.  So what you really got extra bang out of on multiplayer was not the GAME, but the toolset that came WITH the game.

Considering that the console sales outweighed the PC sales for DA:O, I think it's fair to say that the toolset feature appeals to very few people--on the ones who bought the PC version, and probably only a small fraction of them.  So DA2 is and will be single-player.  There's just no value out of multiplayer from Bioware's perspective, or the perspective of something like 90% of the people who are in the market for the game. 

[1varangian]

It's worrying how DA2 is now moving even more away from potential multiplayer.



Character building options are becoming increasingly restricted, weapon choices more limited, rules simplified and streamlined, classes getting a really narrow focus. Low level characters are carbon copies of eachother with similar stats and no meaningful choices being made at level 1. None of that would help multiplayer which should be all about variety and creativity in character builds, starting from level 1.



How likely is it that they will do a 180 and start developing a more dynamic and open ended game system that would be more suited for multiplayer and PW style play?



We truly need a NWN style DA game.

[PsychoBlonde]

We truly need a NWN style DA game.

No, we do not.  YOU WANT an NwN style DA game.  So what you do is, you go fire up the NwN toolset and rebuild the DA setting from scratch.  Then, you got it.  Yay for you.

[ladydesire]

1varangian wrote...

We truly need a NWN style DA game.

You do realize that the return on investment for multiplayer in Neverwinter Nights is part of the reason there isn't multiplayer in the DA franchise, except for the Pen and Paper RPG published by Green Ronin, right?

[The Masked Rog]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

We truly need a NWN style DA game.

No, we do not.  YOU WANT an NwN style DA game.  So what you do is, you go fire up the NwN toolset and rebuild the DA setting from scratch.  Then, you got it.  Yay for you.

NWN3 would be great. I mean, a game where the main focus are robust tools to build custom adventures. While the DA toolset was great, it wasn't nearly as user friendlyy as the NWN1 one. If you don't like such game, you needn't buy t though.

[Mordaedil]

In Exile wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Well, no. That's co-op. Four people isn't massive. Still.

This is a single-player game. BioWare does single-player experiences best. I would really rather not the single-player's resources be siphoned away by a multiplayer. Because either they put few resources in, and suddenly it's a crap multiplayer and a complete waste of time, or they put a lot in and it's detracted significantly from the single-player experience.

You still need a new UI. And a server. And potentially balance. And 4 player content. It takes work to do that;  a multiplayer client doesn't magically appear. And IMO, it's just not worth it in an SP game.

Counter-point: NWN.

No need for UI. Server could be hosted by the players. Balance was nowhere to be found: Mages > Clerics > Everything else. And yet it worked pretty damn well in NWN, despite not being specifically tailored for four players or six.

It's not a matter of magic, but Bioware has been developing SP games in the last 8 years because it's easier than making a game that can support MP to a point. And mostly because people on these forums cry fowl if someone asks them if their next title will have MP support.

Guess what, it doesn't make the game any worse. You just have to wait a few years extra for it. And it'd be still worth it.

[PsychoBlonde]

NWN3 would be great. I mean, a game where the main focus are robust tools to build custom adventures. While the DA toolset was great, it wasn't nearly as user friendlyy as the NWN1 one. If you don't like such game, you needn't buy t though.

Games such as these have been made in the past.  (Where the MAIN focus was on the toolset, that is.)  They always tanked.  Most people want a game they can play right out of the box.  They don't want a set of lincoln logs they have to assemble themselves.

And there are plenty of game-making tools out there for people with actual skill at this sort of thing.  The people who want to create their own games but can't use (or afford) any of the existing tools is EXTREMELY small.

[The Masked Rog]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

NWN3 would be great. I mean, a game where the main focus are robust tools to build custom adventures. While the DA toolset was great, it wasn't nearly as user friendlyy as the NWN1 one. If you don't like such game, you needn't buy t though.

Games such as these have been made in the past.  (Where the MAIN focus was on the toolset, that is.)  They always tanked.  Most people want a game they can play right out of the box.  They don't want a set of lincoln logs they have to assemble themselves.

And there are plenty of game-making tools out there for people with actual skill at this sort of thing.  The people who want to create their own games but can't use (or afford) any of the existing tools is EXTREMELY small.

NWN was released to both critical acclaim and players acclaim. It had a solid campaign of the box. It received two expansions, so it surely must have sold at least sufficiently. It had very few costs on the BioWare side of things to run. BioWare could drop every support for multiplayer right now (the master server) and people could still join via multiplayer via direct connection. There are single player mods of quality nearing that of DA:O (no exageration). There is still an active community. Look forward 8 years and tell me if there will be a active DA:O community? NWN1 has one despite having a sequel.

[ladydesire]

The Masked Rog wrote...


NWN was released to both critical acclaim and players acclaim. It had a solid campaign of the box. It received two expansions, so it surely must have sold at least sufficiently. It had very few costs on the BioWare side of things to run. BioWare could drop every support for multiplayer right now (the master server) and people could still join via multiplayer via direct connection. There are single player mods of quality nearing that of DA:O (no exageration). There is still an active community. Look forward 8 years and tell me if there will be a active DA:O community? NWN1 has one despite having a sequel.

I bolded the part of your post that is the main reason that Neverwinter Nights still has a player base after nearly nine years; the single player modules. 

[Havokk7]

k9medusa wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...
Dragon Age 2 is a single player game.

So was NWN 1 and NWN 2

No they weren't. They were multiplayer, client-server game engines that shipped with some campaigns that only supported one client.
NWN and NWN2 were designed and built right from the start in a client-server architecture. DAO was not. Adding multi-player into DAO or DA2 is definately non-trivial.
I want Bioware to spend programmer time and effort on making a richer single-player experience for me.

B

[PsychoBlonde]

ladydesire wrote...
I bolded the part of your post that is the main reason that Neverwinter Nights still has a player base after nearly nine years; the single player modules. 

I do hope that we'll see a functional toolset again once they finish updating their technology, because that would be cool, but DA:O didn't quite look toolset-ready and DA2 is toolset-impractical.  Maybe DA3?

Fingers crossed.  But yeah, the toolset was still a single-player experience for me.

[In Exile]

Mordaedil wrote...
Counter-point: NWN.

Counter-point: NWN.

Seriously. The main campaign was garbage. You couldn't re-roll a proper character (i.e. either super weak or genius level for balance). You had no party.

No need for UI. Server could be hosted by the players. Balance was nowhere to be found: Mages > Clerics > Everything else. And yet it worked pretty damn well in NWN, despite not being specifically tailored for four players or six.

NWN was garbage. The game really sucked as SP. After HOTU and the improvements to companion AI it became an awesome game due to some amazing SP user created modules, but overall if NWN is the best example for multiplayer & SP matrimony, count me out.

Guess what, it doesn't make the game any worse. You just have to wait a few years extra for it. And it'd be still worth it.

Have you played NWN? Because seriously, it made the game worse.