728 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

Leon Evelake wrote...

Baeritone wrote...

Here's the thing.

I like the Mass Effect series. A lot. I get something completely new and interesting out of it. I liked personalizing my Shepard's face, and didn't mind the changes between the original and 2 much at all, because the basic feel of the game carried across. I've gotten a lot of satisfaction out of it, and I'm really looking forward to the final installment in Shepard's story. The fact that Shepard never felt much like my character didn't matter, because that wasn't the point. His moral choices weren't mine; he was preformatted in a fun kind of way. The story mattered more to me.

But I adored Dragon Age: Origins. The character, because of just HOW personalizable he was, really made me think about my choices. The character felt like me, and I cared about him, and the party members, and the story, exactly as a dedicated reader comes to care for the characters in a book or book series. I cared if Alistair was upset with my choices, the first playthrough when I killed Isolde. I cared when I broke Leliana's heart. I enjoyed dragging Bhelen down from his arrogant height. I was part of the story, a choose-your-own adventure without the cheesiness.

Now they're taking that away, and making Mass Effect: Fantasy.

I'll buy it. I'll play it. I may even enjoy it; I'm open to that possibility. But I can't get past the idea that something has been lost in this translation.
'
Yes, six origins is an enormous amount of programming; that's why it took so long to write and develop the original game. Each story was different from the beginning, and changed the things people said to you during the game at many points; that takes an immense amount of planning. But the payopff for all that work was a real accomplishment - and we may not ever see it again.

I hate that my Warden is likely gone for good. I hate that this new character is so very limited, because even though there were limits even in the old version, each time you played felt a little different.

So yes, I am disappointed. To me, Bioware, an exemplary gaming company, took the easy way out here by mimicking another one of their games, instead of the more rewarding one.

All of which is just my opinion. As I said, I'll buy 2, and probably enjoy it....but the feeling, even by description, just isn't the same.

Well  put.

Sadly no matter how good or bad it may turn out I fell like something great has been left out for the sake of getting a sequel out fast.

I don't think these changes were made because of budget or time.

I honestly think Bioware isn't the same company as it used to be, or more to say aren't happy with what they were doing before the EA acquisition.  They want a Modern Warfare, they want a Halo, they want an 8 million+ seller AAA game, and they aren't going to get that appealing to the niche RPG fans that they appealed to in the past, they have to simplify their games for a wider market.

Fans are going to have to deal with it or move on.

[ErichHartmann]

BioWare "simplified" years ago with KOTOR and Jade Empire after developing NWN. Nothing to see here.

[In Exile]

Harid wrote...
I honestly think Bioware isn't the same company as it used to be, or more to say aren't happy with what they were doing before the EA acquisition.  They want a Modern Warfare, they want a Halo, they want an 8 million+ seller AAA game, and they aren't going to get that appealing to the niche RPG fans that they appealed to in the past, they have to simplify their games for a wider market.

Fans are going to have to deal with it or move on.

Bioware was never this company. People just seen to forget everything between NWN and DA:O. What about KoTOR? That was a console RPG using an aurora engine variant that involved very little party control and tactics, no multiple races and started the ''cinematic presentation'' style at Bioware. Or Jade Empire? That was an action RPG. Melee combat, 3 statistics, no inventory, no party...

Then we have Mass Effect, which pioneered PC VO.

Bioware stopped being the company you're thinking of years ago.

Baeritone wrote...
I like
the Mass Effect series. A lot. I get something completely new and
interesting out of it. I liked personalizing my Shepard's face, and
didn't mind the changes between the original and 2 much at all, because
the basic feel of the game carried across. I've gotten a lot of
satisfaction out of it, and I'm really looking forward to the final
installment in Shepard's story. The fact that Shepard never felt much
like my character didn't matter, because that wasn't the point. His
moral choices weren't mine; he was preformatted in a fun kind of way.
The story mattered more to me.

But I adored Dragon Age: Origins.
The character, because of just HOW personalizable he was, really made
me think about my choices. The character felt like me, and I cared
about him, and the party members, and the story, exactly as a dedicated
reader comes to care for the characters in a book or book series. I
cared if Alistair was upset with my choices, the first playthrough when I
killed Isolde. I cared when I broke Leliana's heart. I enjoyed
dragging Bhelen down from his arrogant height. I was part of the story,
a choose-your-own adventure without the cheesiness.

I can appreciate that you feel this way. But I didn't. The lack of voice, the forced side-kick role in terms of any kind f dramatic scene, the fact you were forced into being a toady and errand boy for the Grey Wardens... I absolutely did not feel anywhere near the connection to the Warden I felt for Shepard as my character.

I feel the need to point this out constantly, because it really bothers me when people want to argue that ME2 creates a feeling of disconnect as a kind of divine invariant.

Modifié par In Exile, 08 janvier 2011 - 05:15 .

[Harid]

In Exile wrote...

Harid wrote...
I honestly think Bioware isn't the same company as it used to be, or more to say aren't happy with what they were doing before the EA acquisition.  They want a Modern Warfare, they want a Halo, they want an 8 million+ seller AAA game, and they aren't going to get that appealing to the niche RPG fans that they appealed to in the past, they have to simplify their games for a wider market.

Fans are going to have to deal with it or move on.

Bioware was never this company. People just seen to forget everything between NWN and DA:O. What about KoTOR? That was a console RPG using an aurora engine variant that involved very little party control and tactics, no multiple races and started the ''cinematic presentation'' style at Bioware. Or Jade Empire? That was an action RPG. Melee combat, 3 statistics, no inventory, no party...

Then we have Mass Effect, which pioneered PC VO.

Bioware stopped being the company you're thinking of years ago.

You see, people say this, yet. . .the only reason Baldur's gate required tactics was because AI control was stupid, and magic was broken.  Regardless of this, 2 tactics worked at 90% of everything. 

But regardless, I largely agree with you.

I felt more for my warden than I did for Shepard, though.  The illusion of free will is better disguised in DA:O than it is for ME:2, I felt I was my Warden, whereas, I didn't find that same connection with Shepard, because you don't have an abundance of choice in ME games.  That has more to do with the ****ty Paragon/Renegade system, though.

Modifié par Harid, 08 janvier 2011 - 05:19 .

[Stoomkal]

Odd... most people who played BG *loved* KoTOR.



And if you felt more connected to ME than DA... then good for you.



I just do not think people want their storytelling reduced to a uniform character.



It works in Sci-Fi better than fantasy - people want to be elves more than space lizards.

[In Exile]

Harid wrote...
You see, people say this, yet. . .the only reason Baldur's gate required tactics was because AI control was stupid, and magic was broken.  Regardless of this, 2 tactics worked at 90% of everything. 

I think in terms of actual gameplay, BG and BG2 were not great games by any stretch. But I played them much later than they came out, and I generally hate  D&D as a system.

I felt more for my warden than I did for Shepard, though.  The illusion of free will is better disguised in DA:O than it is for ME:2, I felt I was my Warden, whereas, I didn't find that same connection with Shepard, because you don't have an abundance of choice in ME games.  That has more to do with the ****ty Paragon/Renegade system, though.

There were too many railroads in a direction I disliked for me to feel a connection to the Warden. One was the forced identity they push on you after the origin (the game doesn't let you avoid adopting the identity of a Warden). After that it all the gotcha moments with the Wardes - the taint will kill you (gee, thanks Duncan), killing the archdemon will kill you, Morrigain super-special last minute blasphemy...  being turned into a puppet is not fun.

That's putting aside actually coming off like a puppet, since your character always has to defer at any dramatic moment to a speaking party member.

I don't think cinematic presentation works with silent VO. A game either needs full on cinematics or PC VO, or it should go back to BG or NWN style full text (that first line voiced was stupid then, too).

[In Exile]

Stoomkal wrote...

Odd... most people who played BG *loved* KoTOR.

And if you felt more connected to ME than DA... then good for you.

I just do not think people want their storytelling reduced to a uniform character.

It works in Sci-Fi better than fantasy - people want to be elves more than space lizards.

According to the data Bioware has, people want to be human nobles 80% of the time. Or was it just humans? At any rate their data shows that the non-human races were not very popular,so that doesn't really justify your position.

I agree with you that the allure is not to have a uniform character, but then we're clearly going to disagree on what that means. 

I would argue that people don't want a souless puppet in their RPGs, which is what DA:O seems to want to give us.

[Stoomkal]

So a couple of decisions that needed to go one way made you feel less in control than a character who had no real choices?



A mad renegade Shep and a pure paragon Shep are virtually identical... barring a "meter".



ALL choices in ME were an illusion... it is either "smack talk" or "happy face".



Drop in a couple of changes for the decided-for conclusion and *bang*... errr choices?

[Harid]

Stoomkal wrote...

So a couple of decisions that needed to go one way made you feel less in control than a character who had no real choices?

A mad renegade Shep and a pure paragon Shep are virtually identical... barring a "meter".

ALL choices in ME were an illusion... it is either "smack talk" or "happy face".

Drop in a couple of changes for the decided-for conclusion and *bang*... errr choices?

Pretty much this.

I will say that perhaps playing a score of JRPG's since FF4 was released in NA have made me used to silent VA's and predisposed to hating talking PC's due to most of them being terrible.  I think I've liked all of. . .one speaking JP protagonist this gen, Yuri Lowell from ToV.  But, like most speaking VA's. . .I don't feel direct relation with the character.  I may like the character, but I don't feel I AM the character.

Modifié par Harid, 08 janvier 2011 - 05:33 .

[Atakuma]

Stoomkal wrote...

So a couple of decisions that needed to go one way made you feel less in control than a character who had no real choices?

A mad renegade Shep and a pure paragon Shep are virtually identical... barring a "meter".

ALL choices in ME were an illusion... it is either "smack talk" or "happy face".

Drop in a couple of changes for the decided-for conclusion and *bang*... errr choices?

All choices in all bioware games are an illusion.

[Harid]

Atakuma wrote...

Stoomkal wrote...

So a couple of decisions that needed to go one way made you feel less in control than a character who had no real choices?

A mad renegade Shep and a pure paragon Shep are virtually identical... barring a "meter".

ALL choices in ME were an illusion... it is either "smack talk" or "happy face".

Drop in a couple of changes for the decided-for conclusion and *bang*... errr choices?

All choices in all bioware games are an illusion.

Yeah, I always found it funny, back when BIOWARE were trolling JRPG's some time last year that in terms of choice. . .Bioware games and JRPG's are largely similar.  It was like. . .the pot calling the kettle back.

Modifié par Harid, 08 janvier 2011 - 05:39 .

[Stoomkal]

All games are an illusion.



See what I did there?

[Pwnsaur]

In Exile wrote...
I can appreciate that you feel this way. But I didn't. The lack of voice, the forced side-kick role in terms of any kind f dramatic scene, the fact you were forced into being a toady and errand boy for the Grey Wardens... I absolutely did not feel anywhere near the connection to the Warden I felt for Shepard as my character.

I feel the need to point this out constantly, because it really bothers me when people want to argue that ME2 creates a feeling of disconnect as a kind of divine invariant.

I was surprised to see you wrote this as you are usually very understanding of the subjective nature of this medium.

However, I feel the need to point out that just because you found the unvoiced PC to be a detraction from your connection with your character does not make it correct.

Invariably there are going to be people who feel the exact opposite as you, but your being 'bothered' by their opinions does not validate your argument. Some people do feel disconnected from a character when their tone is no longer up to their imagination. I can understand both sides of the argument, but it seems you cannot?

[Atakuma]

Stoomkal wrote...

All games are an illusion.

See what I did there?

Yes, you typed something in the box and hit submit.

[AlanC9]

Stoomkal wrote...

A mad renegade Shep and a pure paragon Shep are virtually identical... barring a "meter".

Except, of course, that they get to those different P/R scores by having different lives. They're every bit as much different as a HN warden and a DC Warden. Or every bit as much the same, if you want to look at it that way.

[AlanC9]

Harid wrote...
I felt more for my warden than I did for Shepard, though.  The illusion of free will is better disguised in DA:O than it is for ME:2, I felt I was my Warden, whereas, I didn't find that same connection with Shepard, because you don't have an abundance of choice in ME games.  That has more to do with the ****ty Paragon/Renegade system, though.

I'm not sure I check you on this (except for the lack of connection, which of course is purely subjective). Even if the ME games have less choices than DAO, they're still ahead of the BG games in that regard, and I don't think they're actually all that far behind DAO as far as binary choices go. DAO wins hands-down for having non-binary choices, but that's only in a few places -- most DAO decisions are as binary as ME's

[Addai]

Baeritone wrote...

All of which is just my opinion. As I said, I'll buy 2, and probably enjoy it....but the feeling, even by description, just isn't the same.

Word for word, my feelings exactly.  It'll probably be a great game, just not the game I was hoping for in a sequel.

DAO is the most like a text RPG of any game I've played in recent years (which isn't a whole lot, but the big ones).  That's what drew me in and has kept me hooked for a year plus.

[Addai]

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm not sure I check you on this (except for the lack of connection, which of course is purely subjective). Even if the ME games have less choices than DAO, they're still ahead of the BG games in that regard, and I don't think they're actually all that far behind DAO as far as binary choices go. DAO wins hands-down for having non-binary choices, but that's only in a few places -- most DAO decisions are as binary as ME's

A lot of it depends on your POV.  By restricting the main character to what is the least interesting race and least interesting background to me (I never finished an Amell character), the lack of origins is already cutting out the most important character choice from Origins.  Having a different PC speaking in the same VO is also a real roleplay killer IMO.

[AlanC9]

Pwnsaur wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I can appreciate that you feel this way. But I didn't. The lack of voice, the forced side-kick role in terms of any kind f dramatic scene, the fact you were forced into being a toady and errand boy for the Grey Wardens... I absolutely did not feel anywhere near the connection to the Warden I felt for Shepard as my character.

I feel the need to point this out constantly, because it really bothers me when people want to argue that ME2 creates a feeling of disconnect as a kind of divine invariant.

I was surprised to see you wrote this as you are usually very understanding of the subjective nature of this medium.

However, I feel the need to point out that just because you found the unvoiced PC to be a detraction from your connection with your character does not make it correct.

Invariably there are going to be people who feel the exact opposite as you, but your being 'bothered' by their opinions does not validate your argument. Some people do feel disconnected from a character when their tone is no longer up to their imagination. I can understand both sides of the argument, but it seems you cannot?

You may want to re-read the bolded clause. In Exile does not say that he is bothered by different opinions, he says he's bothered by other people thinking that their opinions are not opinions, but are revealed truth. Though it's a bit awkwardly phrased -- the way he used "as" there makes it easy to mistake the "divine invariant" as being part of how ME2 creates the disconnect. I'd have gone with something more like "it really bothers me when people declare as a kind of divine invariant that ME2 creates a feeling of disconnect."

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm not sure I check you on this (except for the lack of connection, which of course is purely subjective). Even if the ME games have less choices than DAO, they're still ahead of the BG games in that regard, and I don't think they're actually all that far behind DAO as far as binary choices go. DAO wins hands-down for having non-binary choices, but that's only in a few places -- most DAO decisions are as binary as ME's

A lot of it depends on your POV.  By restricting the main character to what is the least interesting race and least interesting background to me (I never finished an Amell character), the lack of origins is already cutting out the most important character choice from Origins.  Having a different PC speaking in the same VO is also a real roleplay killer IMO.

Sure, but Harid was talking about the "illusion of free will." Can that really apply to a race and background choice? Depends on if we're talking about Hawke's illusory free will, or our own.

[Harid]

If someone has to put "in my opinion" on a message board, on the internet, after every statement they make for you to get that it's their opinion. . .then sorry, man, there is something wrong with you.

As for my statement about the illusion of free will, it more has to do with the ability that you can pretty much disregard everything you do in ME games and just know to jam your stick to the upper right and upper left, because those are the only choices to make, whereas decisions were more complicated in DA:O because there wasn't a binary system that drove your dialogue choices.

There is never a time where making the non paragon or renegade choice in ME comes to be advantageous to you.  If anything, they are encouraged not to be made.

On the other hand, you don't get access to certain options, like say, joining the werewolves in DA:O, or lying to Kitty, without making certain choices in dialogue (or the appropriate Persuade check).  I can't recall any moments like that in ME.  Heck, I can't recall any time I failed a Paragon/Renegade chat choice with the exception of that crisis bug that Jack and Miranda have.  Probably because you are pigeonholed down each path.

I'll get a little more in depth on this if needed.

Modifié par Harid, 08 janvier 2011 - 06:44 .

[Pwnsaur]

AlanC9 wrote...
the way he used "as" there makes it easy to mistake the "divine invariant" as being part of how ME2 creates the disconnect.

Ah. Cleared up, thanks.

[Pwnsaur]

Harid wrote...
If someone has to put "in my opinion" on a message board, on the internet, after every statement they make for you to get that it's their opinion. . .then sorry, man, there is something wrong with you.

Was this directed at me?

[Harid]

Pwnsaur wrote...

Harid wrote...
If someone has to put "in my opinion" on a message board, on the internet, after every statement they make for you to get that it's their opinion. . .then sorry, man, there is something wrong with you.

Was this directed at me?

Would be directed to In Exile, technically.

[Pwnsaur]

Cool beans.