728 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Harid wrote...
As for my statemnt about the illusion of free will, it more has to do with the ability that you can pretty much disregard everything you do in ME games and just know to jam your stick to the upper right and upper left, because those are the only choices to make, whereas decisions were more complicated in DA:O because there wasn't a binary system that drove your dialogue choices.

There is never a time where making the non paragon or renegade choice in ME comes to be advantageous to you.  If anything, they are encouraged not to be made.

On the other hand, you don't get access to certain options, like say, joining the werewolves in DA:O, without making certain choices in dialogue.  I can't recall any moments like that in ME.

I'll get a little more in depth on this if needed.

I guess you ought  to. ME's Charm and Intimidate choices are always better than the non-choices, sure,  but this is pretty much the same as DAO Persuade and Intimidate options, which are also better than the choices that don't require Coercion. Come to think of it, we had a thread about how bad the DAO implementation is a week or two ago

[Harid]

In Mass Effect, I felt that most of the storyline missions ended with a paragon/renegade choice, where as in DA:O, I felt that some of them gave you a freer choice. Like say. . .the Paragon of her Kind quest, versus. . .like most ME quests. I can't think of many quests in ME that had more than 2 options. You had something like what. . .16 choices for that quest? And you aren't really penalized for making those 16 choices (with the exception of hostile Shale who isn't required to be there.) Thus it felt a little more organic.

I don't think you can necessarily fault the Persuade/Coercion/Intimidate system for bad implementation, though. . .it's kinda par for the course for most Bioware games that have the option. Which kinda goes back to the JRPG post I made earlier.

Modifié par Harid, 08 janvier 2011 - 07:12 .

[In Exile]

Stoomkal wrote...

So a couple of decisions that needed to go one way made you feel less in control than a character who had no real choices?

You don't have any decisions in any Bioware game save the "end scenario" choices that are the same whether it's ME2, ME or DA:O. It's just "which faction will you side with/who will you kill/will you save the puppies."

I don't find the flavour characterization choices in DA:O any more or less deep than in ME/ME2.

A mad renegade Shep and a pure paragon Shep are virtually identical... barring a "meter".

So is an elf warden, a dwarf warden, a mage warden and a human warden. So too are pretty much any of the line in DA:O except for the aforementioned 'end scenario' choices.

Drop in a couple of changes for the decided-for conclusion and *bang*... errr choices?

Not seeing a difference from DA:O.

Harid wrote..

Pretty much this.

I will say that
perhaps playing a score of JRPG's since FF4 was released in NA have made
me used to silent VA's and predisposed to hating talking PC's due to
most of them being terrible.  I think I've liked all of. . .one speaking
JP protagonist this gen, Yuri Lowell from ToV.  But, like most speaking
VA's. . .I don't feel direct relation with the character.  I may like
the character, but I don't feel I AM the character.

To me, choosing the line for the PC and customizing the gender/apperance is what creates the feeling of "my" character. For example, if we had silent VO but no gender or apperance customization, it would not be something that would make the character feel like it was mine. This was the issue I had with portraits in older games - the portraits always made me feel like it was the artist's character, and not mine.

Your milleage will vary, of course.

Pwnsaur wrote...

However, I feel the need to point out
that just because you found the unvoiced PC to be a detraction
from your connection with your character does not make it correct.

Invariably
there are going to be people who feel the exact opposite as you, but
your being 'bothered' by their opinions does not validate your argument.
Some people do feel disconnected from a character when their
tone is no longer up to their imagination. I can understand both sides
of the argument, but it seems you cannot?

AlanC9 has the right of it. In hindsight, the phrasing is very akward.

What I take issue with is not that some people can't connect to PC VO; what I take issue with is the argument that with PC VO, it is not possible to connect to the character.

I can appreciate both sides; my only complaint is when one person acts as if there is only the one way to do things.

Harid wrote...

If someone has to put "in my opinion" on a
message board, on the internet, after every statement they make for you
to get that it's their opinion. . .then sorry, man, there is something
wrong with you.

It's not about that. It's more a case of just saying something outright wrong. Something being an opinion does not make it immune to criticism. If I say that it is my opinion that water is not composed of hydrogen and oxygen atoms, it may well be my opinion, but I'm absolutely wrong about it.

It's the same with the VO/non-VO angle. Just because someone believes a certain thing doesn't mean it's true or shouldn't be called out.

As for my statement about the illusion of free will, it more has to
do with the ability that you can pretty much disregard everything you do
in ME games and just know to jam your stick to the upper right and
upper left, because those are the only choices to make, whereas
decisions were more complicated in DA:O because there wasn't a binary
system that drove your dialogue choices.

That isn't a problem with anything but how you play it. DA:O has the same thing - the top (i.e. 1) choice is generally the good one, and the bottom (i.e. 3-4) choice is generally the 'immoral/pragmatic etc.' one.

If you are going to meta-game by picking the dialogue choice according to the alignment metre, that's a problem with your attempted meta-gaming, not with the VO.

There is never a time where making the non paragon or renegade
choice in ME comes to be advantageous to you.  If anything, they are
encouraged not to be made.

Only if you meta-game. I always play as a mix because I make each decision on its own merit. Simple. If you are going to meta-game to improve your P/R score for charm/intimidate, then that's no different than just mashing "1" in DA:O.

On the other hand, you don't get access to certain options, like say,
joining the werewolves in DA:O, or lying to Kitty, without making
certain choices in dialogue (or the appropriate Persuade check).  I
can't recall any moments like that in ME.  Heck, I can't recall any time
I failed a Paragon/Renegade chat choice with the exception of that
crisis bug that Jack and Miranda have.  Probably because you are
pigeonholed down each path.

If you save Veetor and Kal'Regar with Tali, you can incite the crowd at her trial and so bypass the need to show the evidence of her father's misdeeds without the paragon/renegade check. It's a third option available only if you make a choice about an hour into the game and in the middle of the game, potentially several hours apart from when you actually head off with Tali to her trial.

It's much deeper than the werewolf decision, actually.

Harid wrote...

In Mass Effect, I felt that most of the
storyline missions ended with a paragon/renegade choice, where as in
DA:O, I felt that some of them gave you a freer choice. Like say. .
.the Paragon of her Kind quest, versus. . .like most ME quests. I can't
think of many quests in ME that had more than 2 options. You had
something like what. . .16 choices for that quest? And you aren't
really penalized for making those 16 choices (with the exception of
hostile Shale who isn't required to be there.) Thus it felt a little
more organic.

What are you talking about? You had 2 choices: side with Branka, or side with Caridan. You then had the "third" option of convincing Branka to destory the force.

That was it. Those were the only choices you had. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Pwnsaur]

In Exile wrote...
I can appreciate both sides; my only complaint is when one person acts as if there is only the one way to do things.

I too take issue with this, I just misunderstood. I apologize, good sir.

[In Exile]

Pwnsaur wrote...

I too take issue with this, I just misunderstood. I apologize, good sir.

It happens. It's not a big deal.

[Harid]

To reiterate the choices in the Paragon for her kind quest, I am talking about the backstabbing you can do up until the conclusion of that quest, coupled with the choice of leader, and the end results from those choices.

One person may end up with a weak dead Harrowmont, another may end up with one that survives his rule. Though I suppose if you want to nitpick you could parse it down to about 4 different outcomes. Still better than the two you get in Mass Effect.

Not gonna get in a page destroying quote war with you, though. i will say that regardless of whether you choose the Paragon choice for one quest, and the Renegade choice for another quest. . .you are still choosing the Paragon and Renegade choice, and will be full Paragon or Renegade at the end of the game if you want to get anything out of the dialogue system, keep allies, and get quest rewards.   Metagaming has nothing to do with the fact that your choices are limited due to the fact that ME does not encourage anything else but those two choices.  In DA:O, without that binary meter to worry about affecting your Coercion check, you ultimately are encouraged to make your own choices.  You might end up a Paragon, or a Renegade, or something else in between.  In Mass Effect though, you only lose by being something in between, which is ultimately my problem with that system.

Modifié par Harid, 08 janvier 2011 - 07:38 .

[In Exile]

I see what you mean regarding Paragon of her Kind. The issue with that is that you're actually summing up choices along a quest. If we count it that way, ME1 has just as rich of a quest on Noveria for the garage pass. There, you can get evidence for Lorik and get a garage pass that way. You can work with Parasini. You can betray Parasini to Anoleous. You can sell out the hanar to Anoleous. Then, you can either let the Rachni live or die (plus, you can either discover or not discover that the mercenaries at the base are working with Benezia, so you can either sneak in and meet Benezia or go in guns-a-blazing).

This gives you the same kind of deep variation that you said DA:O has - and that's off the top of my head. If you want to count an entire quest tree, that is.

As for the P/R distinction, you're making a categorize error. Basically, you see a choice attached to the morality metre and think "only two choices" instead of looking at it as the actual number of choices.

If there was a bivariate morality metre tacked on in DA:O that influenced your persuade/intimidate score (depending on whether you were ruthless or not), that wouldn't suddenly decrease your number of choices, but you are acting like it would.

ETA:

To respond to your edit, the fact that you think of it in terms of losing something shows that you're looking at it meta-game wise - how it influences your persuade score (and it doesn't actually have to; it doesn't in ME1, but might in ME2 to some extent becuase of how weird the persuade as a % check works).

Bioware almost always does bivariate choices. Take a Paragon of her Kind. You can either keep the anvil or not, and betray your backer or not. If you did a good/evil metre, then destorying the anvil and not betraying gives you good points, and the opposite gives you bad. But having the metre has no impact on how many choices you have unless you start thinking about accumulating points.

Modifié par In Exile, 08 janvier 2011 - 07:42 .

[Harid]

In Exile wrote...

I see what you mean regarding Paragon of her Kind. The issue with that is that you're actually summing up choices along a quest. If we count it that way, ME1 has just as rich of a quest on Noveria for the garage pass. There, you can get evidence for Lorik and get a garage pass that way. You can work with Parasini. You can betray Parasini to Anoleous. You can sell out the hanar to Anoleous. Then, you can either let the Rachni live or die (plus, you can either discover or not discover that the mercenaries at the base are working with Benezia, so you can either sneak in and meet Benezia or go in guns-a-blazing).
This gives you the same kind of deep variation that you said DA:O has - and that's off the top of my head. If you want to count an entire quest tree, that is.
As for the P/R distinction, you're making a categorize error. Basically, you see a choice attached to the morality metre and think "only two choices" instead of looking at it as the actual number of choices.
If there was a bivariate morality metre tacked on in DA:O that influenced your persuade/intimidate score (depending on whether you were ruthless or not), that wouldn't suddenly decrease your number of choices, but you are acting like it would.

If quest rewards, keeping allies, finishing quests fulfillingly were tied to that meter. . .it kinda would.

To respond to your edit, you ARE losing somethings.  Weapon upgrades, limited credits (especially ME2), allies (especially ME2.)

As far as your point about bivariate choices, that was kinda alluded to in my posts about comparisons to JRPGs.  If you want my opinions on it, look for the Evil Companions post.  I don't feel like repeating myself.

Bioware is content with this system, and some of their devs made the same stupid arguments people in that thread made, so it's something I expect and am used to.

Modifié par Harid, 08 janvier 2011 - 07:45 .

[In Exile]

Harid wrote...
To respond to your edit, you ARE losing somethings.  Weapon upgrades, limited credits (especially ME2), allies (especially ME2.)

But that's meta-gaming. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just pointing out that your objection isn't related to the number of choices you have, but rather to the fact that you think the consequences are undesirable.

[Harid]

In Exile wrote...

Harid wrote...
To respond to your edit, you ARE losing somethings.  Weapon upgrades, limited credits (especially ME2), allies (especially ME2.)

But that's meta-gaming. I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just pointing out that your objection isn't related to the number of choices you have, but rather to the fact that you think the consequences are undesirable.

I suppose my argument is that that stupid choice should not be there.  There were less of those choices in Dragon Age, as far as I can remember.  Check the Evil Companion thread please.  I don't want to launch into this argument again.

Modifié par Harid, 08 janvier 2011 - 07:48 .

[Akihiro Kytori]

Bioware is as influenced by EA as Inifinty Ward was by Activision. They will sell out, because the publisher wants them to.



Fact of the matter is kiddies, Consoles & Simplified gaming are the future, reguardless of what we want, because the 14 year olds of the world, are gonna get the money to buy their games.



You can argue back and forth all you want. Look at how well Dragon Age Origins sold. You dont fix a fomula that isnt broken. Unless the suits are involved, in which case, they will make you sellout so they can afford another private jet.



By the by, EA really isnt that great at biz decisions. They reported a what? Billion dollar loss over three quarters last year. You think that woulda told them something.



Finally, this kinda thing happened in the 80's. Thank god for Nintendo, because all the game companies did what they are doing now, burried and destroyed the market, and Nintendo was the one who saved it. We would still be on arcade games today if it wasnt for them...

[Leon Evelake]

Akihiro Kytori wrote...

Bioware is as influenced by EA as Inifinty Ward was by Activision. They will sell out, because the publisher wants them to.

Fact of the matter is kiddies, Consoles & Simplified gaming are the future, reguardless of what we want, because the 14 year olds of the world, are gonna get the money to buy their games.

You can argue back and forth all you want. Look at how well Dragon Age Origins sold. You dont fix a fomula that isnt broken. Unless the suits are involved, in which case, they will make you sellout so they can afford another private jet.

By the by, EA really isnt that great at biz decisions. They reported a what? Billion dollar loss over three quarters last year. You think that woulda told them something.

Finally, this kinda thing happened in the 80's. Thank god for Nintendo, because all the game companies did what they are doing now, burried and destroyed the market, and Nintendo was the one who saved it. We would still be on arcade games today if it wasnt for them...

Good God, I wish i could say you were wrong.

[AlanC9]

Akihiro Kytori wrote...
Fact of the matter is kiddies, Consoles & Simplified gaming are the future, reguardless of what we want, because the 14 year olds of the world, are gonna get the money to buy their games.

Leaving the rant aside, gamer demographics don't back this up. At all. 

[Ziggeh]

Akihiro Kytori wrote...

You can argue back and forth all you want. Look at how well Dragon Age Origins sold. You dont fix a fomula that isnt broken. Unless the suits are involved, in which case, they will make you sellout so they can afford another private jet.

Isn't that a contradiction? "Hey guys, your last game sold really well, so we want you to change a bunch of stuff." I mean, I get assuming EA are financially focussed, but assuming they're deranged? Seems a bit odd.

[DJBare]

All I can say is I'm going to miss playing an elf, just glad I still get to choose playing a female.

[Leon Evelake]

Ziggeh wrote...

Akihiro Kytori wrote...

You can argue back and forth all you want. Look at how well Dragon Age Origins sold. You dont fix a fomula that isnt broken. Unless the suits are involved, in which case, they will make you sellout so they can afford another private jet.

Isn't that a contradiction? "Hey guys, your last game sold really well, so we want you to change a bunch of stuff." I mean, I get assuming EA are financially focussed, but assuming they're deranged? Seems a bit odd.

Not really, the first game took a long time to get made so now that was a big success it would not be suprising for the higher ups to "do what it takes to get the next one out fast" .   A lot of game series are having this happen.

[doublet713]

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Cerberus Operative wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

While there are multiple races in the game, like elves, dwarves, etc, in Dragon Age 2 you play a human character.

This is very disappointing, taking away the chance to experience the story from the viewpoint of different races. If it isn't too much trouble could I be informed of the reasoning behind the choice to remove the origin stories.

I would take it as confirmation that you do in fact get to play as Morrigans child, I always suspected this but I always wondered how they would implement dawrves and elves as PCs since Morrigan is human and any charcter would have to be either half dwarf, half elf or full human. The fact that you can only play as human confirms that you are Morrigans child.

Not at all. Considering your character is there when Lothering is attacked from Origins.

[dreamextractor]

doublet713 wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Cerberus Operative wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

While there are multiple races in the game, like elves, dwarves, etc, in Dragon Age 2 you play a human character.

This is very disappointing, taking away the chance to experience the story from the viewpoint of different races. If it isn't too much trouble could I be informed of the reasoning behind the choice to remove the origin stories.

I would take it as confirmation that you do in fact get to play as Morrigans child, I always suspected this but I always wondered how they would implement dawrves and elves as PCs since Morrigan is human and any charcter would have to be either half dwarf, half elf or full human. The fact that you can only play as human confirms that you are Morrigans child.

Not at all. Considering your character is there when Lothering is attacked from Origins.

you realize that you are replying to a 7 month old comment right? <_<

why do people keep necroing old threads.

[Leon Evelake]

dreamextractor wrote...

doublet713 wrote...

_-Greywolf-_ wrote...

Cerberus Operative wrote...

Chris Priestly wrote...

While there are multiple races in the game, like elves, dwarves, etc, in Dragon Age 2 you play a human character.

This is very disappointing, taking away the chance to experience the story from the viewpoint of different races. If it isn't too much trouble could I be informed of the reasoning behind the choice to remove the origin stories.

I would take it as confirmation that you do in fact get to play as Morrigans child, I always suspected this but I always wondered how they would implement dawrves and elves as PCs since Morrigan is human and any charcter would have to be either half dwarf, half elf or full human. The fact that you can only play as human confirms that you are Morrigans child.

Not at all. Considering your character is there when Lothering is attacked from Origins.

you realize that you are replying to a 7 month old comment right? <_<

why do people keep necroing old threads.

Well if you have a problem with it you could you know not respond.

[Altima Darkspells]

Ziggeh wrote...

Isn't that a contradiction? "Hey guys, your last game sold really well, so we want you to change a bunch of stuff." I mean, I get assuming EA are financially focussed, but assuming they're deranged? Seems a bit odd.

Seems to be what they did for DA2.  The way BioWare/EA has been acting about DA2's release is that they were frankly shocked at how well DAO did, since according to BW, DA2 was in production before Origins even wrapped up.

[Riloux]

And this is a Dragon Age: ORIGINS (Emphasis) sequel, how? If you're going to take the biggest fantasy RPG element out, please don't brand it a fantasy RPG so I know what to avoid.



I hate playing humans in video games. This is a big reason why I love fantasy games and hate first person shooters. I can play as an elf or dwarf, and I do. Forcing me to play a human in a fantasy RPG is just shameful. I really hope the story and gameplay is enough to redeem this outstandingly awful decision.

[Falls Edge]

Riloux wrote...

And this is a Dragon Age: ORIGINS (Emphasis) sequel, how? If you're going to take the biggest fantasy RPG element out, please don't brand it a fantasy RPG so I know what to avoid.

I hate playing humans in video games. This is a big reason why I love fantasy games and hate first person shooters. I can play as an elf or dwarf, and I do. Forcing me to play a human in a fantasy RPG is just shameful. I really hope the story and gameplay is enough to redeem this outstandingly awful decision.

I have to ask, have you played Planescape torment?

[coolide]

I hate playing anything other than human. We are the most superior race. Why would I want to be a short, fat dwarf, or a lanky elf who falls over in a stiff breeze?

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Falls Edge wrote...

Riloux wrote...

And this is a Dragon Age: ORIGINS (Emphasis) sequel, how? If you're going to take the biggest fantasy RPG element out, please don't brand it a fantasy RPG so I know what to avoid.

I hate playing humans in video games. This is a big reason why I love fantasy games and hate first person shooters. I can play as an elf or dwarf, and I do. Forcing me to play a human in a fantasy RPG is just shameful. I really hope the story and gameplay is enough to redeem this outstandingly awful decision.

I have to ask, have you played Planescape torment?

I would think the difference here would likely be that Planescape Torment wasn't a sequel, so it had not expectations from a previous game to meet whereas DA 2 follows 2009's RPG of the year where players could have a slew of options for their characters, and in the sequel those character options are missing.

[In Exile]

Riloux wrote...

And this is a Dragon Age: ORIGINS (Emphasis) sequel, how? If you're going to take the biggest fantasy RPG element out, please don't brand it a fantasy RPG so I know what to avoid.

It's the Dragon Age sequel. I don't know where "Origins" came from, but that was tacked on very close to release. For those of us who followed the game from way early on, it was just Dragon Age. There was a lot of outcry, in fact, when Origins was added on.