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[the-expatriate]

I always got a kind of weird vibe from how vital to the setting the Creator, the Chantry and also the ancient Elven gods are in DA:O, despite that, like in real life, there was no empirical evidence to support those beliefs. This is as opposed to many or most other fantasy setting in which deities often take an active role in events, and are generally accepted as existing without any real reason for doubt. But more importantly, the relationship between the emphasis given to religion in-game did not seem to match the emphasis (or lack thereof) to the main story events; in other words, it seems like more detail was put into writing it than makes sense for simple setting material. This is why I sometimes suspect that it will play an integral role at some point for plots set in Thedas.

I feel that religion played a major role in the overall tone of the setting; the cultures, the politics, and especially the characters. Yet, except for the the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest, it had very little to do with the actual game events; additionally, the "divine" nature of the Ashes was left ambiguous, with possible magical explanations left open for interpretation. Something about this always seemed a bit fishy to me, and I've often wondered when they plan on taking this story element. Every character, no matter how sarcastic about it, seems to accept the Creator and religion as being based on truth, even if they believe it misguided.

If you haven't read it already, here's an interesting blog on the lack of DA-character non-believer, "atheist" dialogue options during in-game conversations: http://www.bit-tech....on-age-origins/

In DA:O. without giving away spoilers, some of the nature of the religious myths which surround the beginning of the Blights is revealed, as are many interesting details through codex entries. I wonder: in DA2, will they reveal more about the Fade, the creatures that dwell therein, and the history of the Golden(Black) City, and how those things relate? Will religious beliefs in the Creator or Elven gods become verified as having a physical, worldly influence? Or will it be debunked as we learn more setting trivia through quests and codex entries? Perhaps most interestingly: what role will
*SPOILER ALERT*
Morrigans' you-know-what, play in the development of that mythos? The "godchild," if you will.
*END SPOILERS*

I haven't played or read up on DA:O story for a while and my knowledge of this area is a bit rusty. From what you know of Thedas codex/story trivia, and also of the possible or most-likely intentions for developers in regards to where they may take this element of the story, let me ask you folks of the forums: how do you predict they'll expand on religionous knowledge/beliefs, or reveal about them, in DA2 ?

[Serban Cousland]

How about the Urn of Sacred Ashes and the curing of the Arl of Redcliffe as a proof for one religion? Or can we consider it just magical sand?

[Behindyounow]

Serban Cousland wrote...

How about the Urn of Sacred Ashes and the curing of the Arl of Redcliffe as a proof for one religion? Or can we consider it just magical sand?

If you take Oghren along he says there's a lot of lyrium in the area, which could account for the healing properties.

[AlexXIV]

Behindyounow wrote...

Serban Cousland wrote...

How about the Urn of Sacred Ashes and the curing of the Arl of Redcliffe as a proof for one religion? Or can we consider it just magical sand?

If you take Oghren along he says there's a lot of lyrium in the area, which could account for the healing properties.

Well lyrium is a hint that Andraste could have been a mage, or at least that she maybe just used it. But wouldn't it be silly if lyrium cured Eamon? I mean they have plenty at the Mage Tower and he sends off knights for the search of some holy ashes ... wouldn't it make more sense to try lyrium to cure some magical disease?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 24 juillet 2010 - 01:04 .

[Behindyounow]

Well its not pure lyrium though is it? Its ash infused with Lyrium over hundreds of years.



And even then, they don't go running off to find the ashes because they might be made of lyrium. They go after them because they're well known to heal anything.

[elearon1]

The game is based in a medieval setting - religion was huge in the middle ages and atheists - the few that existed - were not generally tolerated or very verbal about their lack of belief. In all but the strongest kingdoms rulers could be undone by the church. The split between Catholics and Protestants was a major, era defining event in its time.

Whatever your personal beliefs are today, religion has long played an important part in human history.

And me, I preferred the religion remain more mundane - that is no gods stepping from the skies, granting random miracles, or whathaveyou. The people of Thedas believe because of faith - which was more than enough to get people through in our own world.

Modifié par elearon1, 24 juillet 2010 - 01:04 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

There were Demons in the game and Ghosts proving some sort of after life existed and we have Ghosts in our world. So there is some proof. Nevertheless I don't want to get into a debate about evidence of a divine power in our world or in DA's world. I think The Maker should remain hidden. There should be more information about him and even dialogues where you can make Hawke say is a devout believer or doesn't believe at all. However I wouldn't want The Maker playing an active role in DA. I think it would be better if you just hear of him like you did in DA. Religion should have the same role in DA 2 as it did in DA:O.

[Rubbish Hero]

The chantry people boring as hell. Make them like the Taliban or something. You know, exciting?

[Eternal Phoenix]

Make some Templars who are rogue Templars and don't just hunt Mages. They hunt people who don't believe and will HUNT you too. Some of the dialogues would be funny.
Templar1: This guy says he don't believe in the Maker Tom!
Templar2: Yeah, well he'll be meeting The Maker soon for that terrible crime...
Templar3: Yeah! We'll be dealing with him! We'll destroy him!
Templar4: Then eat him!
Templar1: No, we won't eat him.
Templar2: Draw your maces soldiers!
:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:
Templar3: I haven't got a mace..I only have a sword...
Templar4: I haven't got a mace or a sword..but I plan to use my teeth! 
Templar1: For the last time Templar4..we are not cannibals! We are the divine servants of the most high Maker whose name can not be pronounced and if you try to pronounce it..you die. 
Templar2: Really? Lemme see....JohoajsdiojsihduhjkainjdsbhjsnnaissnsokaiodjubhrozsiaJAIOHJXSLKJIK *Dies*
Templar1: Told ya.
Templar4: Look can we get on with this. I am hungry and haven't had anything to eat in days.
Templar3: Templar4 has a point you know. I am hungry too..common..let us eat this guy.
Templar1: (sigh).....wait where did he go!?
*Hawke sneaks off.*

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 24 juillet 2010 - 01:51 .

[AlexXIV]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

The chantry people boring as hell. Make them like the Taliban or something. You know, exciting?

Maybe they get more exciting once they find out that their Maker is actually a Reaper.

[In Exile]

David Gaidner explained the lack of atheistic options as nonsensical for the setting. It was just not a philosophy that existed at the time in his in view, and while someone could tell you where you could shove religion, the philosophical notion that no religion existed and there was no divine was just not so common.

The anti-Chantry options and anti-Maker options were there for elves, dwarves and mages.

That being said, the Urn of Sacred ashes was intentionally left as is because the entire role of the setting is to make religion ambiguous despite the potential for it to be true.

We have no evidence than an old god is actually any sort of god per se, versus an abomination (like Wynne, with a spirit instead of a demon) or an ambomination like Flemeth, or some other kind of being that isn't strictly speaking divine.

There's an entire Alternative Explanation of Andraste in-setting as a gifted mage with the Maker playing the role of a Fade spirit, so I think the entire intent is that the setting takes the attitude toward religion that our world has, versus D&D.

[joriandrake]

Serban Cousland wrote...

How about the Urn of Sacred Ashes and the curing of the Arl of Redcliffe as a proof for one religion? Or can we consider it just magical sand?

considering there was a spirit protecting it and it is confirmed to be human remains I would say its not just "magic sand"

[joriandrake]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

The chantry people boring as hell. Make them like the Taliban or something. You know, exciting?

*facepalm

[In Exile]

Elton John is dead wrote...

There were Demons in the game and Ghosts proving some sort of after life existed and we have Ghosts in our world. So there is some proof. Nevertheless I don't want to get into a debate about evidence of a divine power in our world or in DA's world. I think The Maker should remain hidden. There should be more information about him and even dialogues where you can make Hawke say is a devout believer or doesn't believe at all. However I wouldn't want The Maker playing an active role in DA. I think it would be better if you just hear of him like you did in DA. Religion should have the same role in DA 2 as it did in DA:O.

Demons in the game do not prove that there exists anything else divine. One supernatural thing does not imply another, unrelated supernatural thing, and demons aren't supernatural at all. They're like rocks, or other parts of the world. After all, in-setting, the Fade is very real. Things that are part of the Fade aren't considered supernatural.

I can't seem to recall any ghosts. The closest we've come is the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest, but there is a plausible alternative explanation for that. More importantly, theologically (for the Chantry) ghosts shouldn't exist.

[Rzepik2]

joriandrake wrote...

Serban Cousland wrote...

How about the Urn of Sacred Ashes and the curing of the Arl of Redcliffe as a proof for one religion? Or can we consider it just magical sand?

considering there was a spirit protecting it and it is confirmed to be human remains I would say its not just "magic sand"

It's a magic sand +3.

[In Exile]

joriandrake wrote...

Serban Cousland wrote...

How about the Urn of Sacred Ashes and the curing of the Arl of Redcliffe as a proof for one religion? Or can we consider it just magical sand?

considering there was a spirit protecting it and it is confirmed to be human remains I would say its not just "magic sand"

We don't know that is a spirit in the sense that it was a person. Actually, much better proof for the supernatural and divine is that it might seem to that souls tangibly exist in DA (based on what we see with the archdemon and how the Grey Wardens kill it). That suggests a real dualistic existence. Now, soul does not imply god, or any other kind of supernaturla entity, but I would say that is more concrete evidence that the Chantry is on the right track that wraiths and spirits in lyrium infused temples.

[joriandrake]

well the irony is that the ghost is who supports the Chantry, even if the Chantry itself ignores its existence, this seems quite realistic for the setting of DA for me

[In Exile]

No, what I mean is that according to the Chantry, when you die you go to the Maker beyond the Fade. They don't leave room for other things to happen. So for something to exist and not go to the Maker, that contradicts the narrative of the Chantry. The ghost says it is for the sake of the Maker, but we have no reason to believe that is true, and even if it is, that suggests the Chantry can be wrong about aspects of their own theology, which makes you wonder where else they're wrong.

[joriandrake]

In Exile wrote...

No, what I mean is that according to the Chantry, when you die you go to the Maker beyond the Fade. They don't leave room for other things to happen. So for something to exist and not go to the Maker, that contradicts the narrative of the Chantry. The ghost says it is for the sake of the Maker, but we have no reason to believe that is true, and even if it is, that suggests the Chantry can be wrong about aspects of their own theology, which makes you wonder where else they're wrong.

Well, the Chantry can of course be wrong in some things, the Urn and ghost simply confirm the existence of the Maker, not that the Chantry is right

[Monstruo696]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

The chantry people boring as hell. Make them like the Taliban or something. You know, exciting?

  I, uh.

Are you trolling?

[joriandrake]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Rubbish Hero wrote...

The chantry people boring as hell. Make them like the Taliban or something. You know, exciting?

  I, uh.

Are you trolling?

Do you have to ask?

[errant_knight]

People don't need empirical evidence to be religious. If they did, it would be limited to those who'd seen burning bushes personally. I also thing that having a bunch of atheists/agnostics running around in a medieval setting would be seriously odd. That just wasn't a way people thought. It was still shocking as late as the 17-1800's.

Modifié par errant_knight, 24 juillet 2010 - 04:28 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Morrigan makes it clear in party conversations with leliana that she doesn't believe in a creator god.. Why later she says she wants to capture the 'soul of an old god' seems out of the previously established character.

There are ghosts in the orphanage during the Alienage part of the game.

[quote]
Elton John is dead wrote..

There were Demons in the game and Ghosts proving some sort of after life existed and we have Ghosts in our world.[\\quote]

Okaaaay... *backs away slowly*

Modifié par Shinian2, 24 juillet 2010 - 04:31 .

[joriandrake]

errant_knight wrote...

People don't need empirical evidence to be religious. If they did, it would be limited to those who'd seen burning bushes personally. I also thing that having a bunch of atheists/agnostics running around in a medieval setting would be seriously odd. That just wasn't a way people thought. It was still shocking as late as the 17-1800's.

even 19th century

for me it is even today but that doesn't matter now