75 réponses à ce sujet

[Monstruo696]

joriandrake wrote...


Do you have to ask?

If I was anywhere else, no.

But I've found this forum to be full of rather genuinely stup-

endous people.

[Calla S]

Monstruo696 wrote...

joriandrake wrote...


Do you have to ask?

If I was anywhere else, no.

But I've found this forum to be full of rather genuinely stup-

endous people.

If I've ruined my keyboard by spitting soda onto it, I'm going to be very upset. There are no words for how wise that statement truly is.

That said, with Morrigan, I understand the atheism, as she was raised by Flemeth, who doesn't strike me as the Chantry-going sort, really. And the thing with the Old God has no doubt been deeply set in her mind because of her mother. It's more pseudo-mythological than religion based, as well.

[In Exile]

Shinian2 wrote...

Morrigan makes it clear in party conversations with leliana that she doesn't believe in a creator god.. Why later she says she wants to capture the 'soul of an old god' seems out of the previously established character.

An old god is not neccesarily a creator god. The chantry, for example, would disagree. Morrigan talks about preserving its essence; she makes it seem much more like protecting an endangered species.

[In Exile]

joriandrake wrote...

Well, the Chantry can of course be wrong in some things, the Urn and ghost simply confirm the existence of the Maker, not that the Chantry is right

I don't see how they confirm the existence of the Maker. To me, this seems like the fallacy of assuming one supernatural event implies the existence of all possible alien events (if aliens, then Jesus, to quote TV tropes). It is possible there is simply an alternative explanation for both that does not involve the Maker.

[Grommash94]

In Exile wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Well, the Chantry can of course be wrong in some things, the Urn and ghost simply confirm the existence of the Maker, not that the Chantry is right

I don't see how they confirm the existence of the Maker. To me, this seems like the fallacy of assuming one supernatural event implies the existence of all possible alien events (if aliens, then Jesus, to quote TV tropes). It is possible there is simply an alternative explanation for both that does not involve the Maker.

The Maker could just be a powerful Fade spirit, and the Guardian could just be a servant of said spirit.

[Vandicus]

Grommash94 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Well, the Chantry can of course be wrong in some things, the Urn and ghost simply confirm the existence of the Maker, not that the Chantry is right

I don't see how they confirm the existence of the Maker. To me, this seems like the fallacy of assuming one supernatural event implies the existence of all possible alien events (if aliens, then Jesus, to quote TV tropes). It is possible there is simply an alternative explanation for both that does not involve the Maker.

The Maker could just be a powerful Fade spirit, and the Guardian could just be a servant of said spirit.

The Urn and ghost do confirm that the Maker exists, unless we wish to assume the ghost was lying, at which point we could just assume everything, including the codex, are in-game lies. There was no incentive for the ghost to lie about the existence of the Maker. The Maker's true nature is up to question though. Its quite possible that he's merely a powerful Fade spirit, though I'm curious as to how a non-mage like Leliana recieved a vision from said-Maker. The Urn quite clearly has healing powers, not something that is usually associated with lyrium, so I would believe that would have more to do with the remains of Andraste.

I think the Andraste was a mage theory is correct, and that the Maker was, as has been said, a powerful Fade spirit. I believe Andraste was the first Spirit Healer, and was a Spirit Healer of such great strength that her remains still have the power to heal virtually anything.

[Stormghost]

I thought Morrigan was an atheist, I seem to remember her mouthing off at Leliana when they discussed the Maker.



It may be a Medieval-esque setting, but it's set in a fantasy world so anything can happen. It didn't seem to me that people of Thedas took religion too seriously, aside from the Chantry priests etc. The chantry buildings were never exactly packed, except when refugees were using them for shelter.

[Vandicus]

davidk1991 wrote...

I thought Morrigan was an atheist, I seem to remember her mouthing off at Leliana when they discussed the Maker.

It may be a Medieval-esque setting, but it's set in a fantasy world so anything can happen. It didn't seem to me that people of Thedas took religion too seriously, aside from the Chantry priests etc. The chantry buildings were never exactly packed, except when refugees were using them for shelter.

Denying one religion is not denial of all religion, you've got a false dilemma there. Although it wouldn't suprise me that a mage would be an atheist, making assumptions that may or may not be true is a dangerous practice.

[Stormghost]

Vandicus wrote...

Denying one religion is not denial of all religion, you've got a false dilemma there. Although it wouldn't suprise me that a mage would be an atheist, making assumptions that may or may not be true is a dangerous practice.

Dragon Age Leliana asks Morrigan about her belief in the Maker
She seems pretty anti-religion in general in that dialogue.

[Vandicus]

jln.francisco wrote...


Random thought, does anyone know where lyrium comes from?

It comes from the Deep Roads, why do you ask?

[Vandicus]

davidk1991 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Denying one religion is not denial of all religion, you've got a false dilemma there. Although it wouldn't suprise me that a mage would be an atheist, making assumptions that may or may not be true is a dangerous practice.

Dragon Age Leliana asks Morrigan about her belief in the Maker
She seems pretty anti-religion in general in that dialogue.

Morrigan insists that there is no Creator. The dwarvish religion doesn't involve a Creator either, it involves a worship of the Stone and their ancestors. Religion does not necessitate a creator or a god


*EDIT

Another good example is the Old Gods. They're not really gods in the sense that they can mold and affect the world at will, but they were worshipped anyways. That is a religion without gods in the sense that we think of them.

Modifié par Vandicus, 24 juillet 2010 - 06:13 .

[Stormghost]

Vandicus wrote...

Morrigan insists that there is no Creator. The dwarvish religion doesn't involve a Creator either, it involves a worship of the Stone and their ancestors. Religion does not necessitate a creator or a god

Of course, although it does make her an atheist.  However, her line about not placing order over chaos, and about nature itself being chaotic makes her sound anti-religion (or at least organized religion) to me.
She sounds like a typical D&D Chaotic Neutral, much like myself 

[V-time]

If they go with the explanation that religion was important in the medieval ages (which is undoubtly correct) and they then go with the explanation that they didn´t introduce atheist options because it goes against this belief (since Da is build upon the medieval ages) thats fine but then they should expand that to everything to stay close to the source material e.g. no female characters apart from housewives or non heroic roles etc. obviously this would give alot of flak from the press and female gamers but if they stay true to their beliefs then that is what should have happened.



I for one would like some more atheistic or at least highly sceptic dialogue options like calling for an explanation why they would worship some god that basically made their life hell simply because some upstarts bothered him during his nap (according to chantry lore/ sarcastic presentation of course but you know what i mean). Actually did the Maker have a single positive event he is attributed for like did he do anything benevolent at all that is mentioned in game (and even then it´s most likely by some chantry priest)?

[Vandicus]

davidk1991 wrote...

Vandicus wrote...

Morrigan insists that there is no Creator. The dwarvish religion doesn't involve a Creator either, it involves a worship of the Stone and their ancestors. Religion does not necessitate a creator or a god

Of course, although it does make her an atheist.  However, her line about not placing order over chaos, and about nature itself being chaotic makes her sound anti-religion (or at least organized religion) to me.
She sounds like a typical D&D Chaotic Neutral, much like myself 

In a fantasy world where some religions involve worship of concepts or ancestors, which no longer exists in our world, the term atheist can mean a multitude of things depending on the writer. Am I to take it that you mean the literal definition that Morrigan denies the existence of deities? In fantasy worlds, deities are not necessarily the Creators, unlike our world they're almost always the Creator of the world. Morrigan only explicity denies the concept of a Creator. Well in Dragonlance, an off-shoot of D&D that you may be familiar with, there are a multitude of deities, but the mortals aren't sure which one is the one who created the world(general consensus being Reorx though) yet they choose their religion without regards to that factor. The All-Father, whom no mortal knows about, is the creator of the Gods and the universe itself, so he could be said to be the Creator. Denial of a Creator does not mean a denial of deities. Acceptance of a deity does not mean belief in a Creator.

I think she worships the concept of power, and as an extension of that, she's obtained a belief in the Old Gods(so that she may obtain infinite power), which is why she goes to such lengths to preserve one of the Old Gods. Regardless of whether they are truly deities, worship of them that involves the belief that they are deities is not atheist. However, that's just speculation on my part.

Besides the Maker, I would expect her to be generally agnostic about other religions, such as the Elvish religion.

[Vandicus]

V-time wrote...

 Actually did the Maker have a single positive event he is attributed for like did he do anything benevolent at all that is mentioned in game (and even then it´s most likely by some chantry priest)?

The Maker is associated with the fall of the Tevinter Imperium and the rise of Fereldan. The people who Andraste lead to defeat the Imperium were the ancestors of the DA:O Fereldans.

[Vandicus]

Sorry to post so many times in succession, but I'd like to point out an interesting fact.

The Guardian in the temple broke one of the Cardinal Rules of Magic, no immortality. Therefore the maker exists, whether he be a powerful Fade Spirit or indeed the Creator. I'm still leaning towards powerful Fade spirit on the basis that Justice could've obtained an undead sort of immortality, thus opening up more options, but that is sort of hard to explain away.

[Stormghost]

Vandicus wrote...
In a fantasy world where some religions involve worship of concepts or ancestors, which no longer exists in our world, the term atheist can mean a multitude of things depending on the writer. Am I to take it that you mean the literal definition that Morrigan denies the existence of deities? In fantasy worlds, deities are not necessarily the Creators, unlike our world they're almost always the Creator of the world. Morrigan only explicity denies the concept of a Creator. Well in Dragonlance, an off-shoot of D&D that you may be familiar with, there are a multitude of deities, but the mortals aren't sure which one is the one who created the world(general consensus being Reorx though) yet they choose their religion without regards to that factor. The All-Father, whom no mortal knows about, is the creator of the Gods and the universe itself, so he could be said to be the Creator. Denial of a Creator does not mean a denial of deities. Acceptance of a deity does not mean belief in a Creator.

I think she worships the concept of power, and as an extension of that, she's obtained a belief in the Old Gods(so that she may obtain infinite power), which is why she goes to such lengths to preserve one of the Old Gods. Regardless of whether they are truly deities, worship of them that involves the belief that they are deities is not atheist. However, that's just speculation on my part.

Besides the Maker, I would expect her to be generally agnostic about other religions, such as the Elvish religion.

Yes, yes, I see where you're coming from.  I don't really see the Old Gods in the same category as the Maker at all, what with the Archdemon link and all.  However, I think the original topic was more about Chantry-style religion prevalent in the era we play in Dragon Age.  Morrigan seems to be against that sort of religion entirely, and the point I was making was that although the game has a Medieval style setting, there is clear skepticism amongst some of the habitants of Thedas, and they aren't burnt at the stake upon sight, like they may have been in real-life Medieval Europe.
I do concede she is not an atheist in a 'no deities whatsover sense', but the Old Gods aren't really gods...  IMO anyway.

[Vandicus]

davidk1991 wrote...

Yes, yes, I see where you're coming from.  I don't really see the Old Gods in the same category as the Maker at all, what with the Archdemon link and all.  However, I think the original topic was more about Chantry-style religion prevalent in the era we play in Dragon Age.  Morrigan seems to be against that sort of religion entirely, and the point I was making was that although the game has a Medieval style setting, there is clear skepticism amongst some of the habitants of Thedas, and they aren't burnt at the stake upon sight, like they may have been in real-life Medieval Europe.
I do concede she is not an atheist in a 'no deities whatsover sense', but the Old Gods aren't really gods...  IMO anyway.

I agree with you that Morrigan is against any type of structured religion, and that a multitude of people have religious skepticism regarding certain things. I also agree with the fact that people aren't burned at the stake for their religious beliefs in DA:O, as far as we've seen. Religion seems less harsh and hostile in this game than it was in our history. I'm pretty sure whatever the surviving Tevintir Imperium uses is much more hostile however, especially considering their old penchant for blood sacrifices.

I think Morrigan has her own personal religion, the belief that the Old Gods can have access to infinite or extreme amounts of power, and that she can manipulate one of them to ascend to godhood, or godesshood, as it were. This, I believe, is a result of her own desperate need to escape the fate of her sisters, and what teaching Flemeth gave her. Its like Frodo in LOTR, he needed to believe that Gollum could heal from the corruption that the ring inflicted upon him, so that he could believe that he could survive the experience. Morrigan needs to believe that the Old God baby can save her from Flemeth in order for her to believe that she can be free and not be killed  by her mother.

[RavenStorm]

That was(or is) one of the big turn offs about Dragon Age to me. It's to monotheistic, playing upon The whole George the Dragon Slayer image. The Old Gods are evil(and they just so happen to be Dragons a popular image of Roman Christianities Satan character). Then the fact that they name their Patron Saint of the Maker Andraste. After an actual Brythonic Goddess of victory and war?

You should have had the option to be pagan, and oppose the chantry.

Modifié par RavenStorm, 24 juillet 2010 - 07:24 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

RavenStorm wrote...

That was(or is) one of the big turn offs about Dragon Age to me. It's to monotheistic, playing upon The whole George the Dragon Slayer image. The Old Gods are evil(and they just so happen to be Dragons a popular image of Roman Christianities Satan character). Then the fact that they name their Patron Saint of the Maker Andraste. After an actual Brythonic Goddess of victory and war?

You should have had the option to be pagan, and oppose the chantry.

The thing is that opposing the Chantry directly in the events of DA:O isn't just disruptive--it's downright stupid.  For any PC, no matter how anti-Chantry.  There's a Blight of all things going on...so...we're going to spend our time picking fights with the Chantry?  

If you play an elf, dwarf, or mage, you do get to thumb your nose at the Chantry on numerous occasions.  As others in this thread have pointed out, there are legitimate in-game alternate interpretations of things like the Fade, Maker, Old Gods, Andraste, and the Urn of Sacred Ashes, without defaulting to Chantry orthodoxy.

Though I can't see an actively anti-Chantry PC in DA:O, it might make sense in DA2.  Think about it--Kirkwall is in the iron grip of a templar theocracy.  Hawke becomes the "Champion of Kirkwall."  That could mean anything from working with the templars to actively overthrowing them and establishing a new order.

[In Exile]

[quote]Vandicus wrote...

The Urn and ghost do confirm that the Maker exists, unless we wish to assume the ghost was lying, at which point we could just assume everything, including the codex, are in-game lies. [/quote]

But we should, because they are all unreliable narrators. You even have options to outright accuse the codex of lying (indirectly) by calling into question the Chantry story of how the blight came about several times (with Wynne in Ostagar, with Avernus in the DLC, etc.).

[quote]There was no incentive for the ghost to lie about the existence of the Maker. The Maker's true nature is up to question though.[/quote]

The ghost believes in the Maker. That would be like saying there is no incentive for a priest to lie about the existence of god. It is not that the ghost is trying to misleading you, but simply that the ghost could be wrong. There is no evidence for it, and no reason to believe characters are infallible.

[quote]Its quite possible that he's merely a powerful Fade spirit, though I'm curious as to how a non-mage like Leliana recieved a vision from said-Maker. [/quote]

Well, it's arguable whether Leliana had a vision. All she had was a dream about blackness and not blackness, which is about as vague as possible, and some random flower that started blooming when she happened to pay attention to it.

As you can say to character, "I believe Leliana believes she had a vision." You're playing it way too straight.

[quite]The Urn quite clearly has healing powers, not something that is usually associated with lyrium, so I would believe that would have more to do with the remains of Andraste.[/quote]

Wynne can heal broken bones. In fact, any mage can do this. Does that have to do with Andraste? 

[quote]I think the Andraste was a mage theory is correct, and that the Maker was, as has been said, a powerful Fade spirit. I believe Andraste was the first Spirit Healer, and was a Spirit Healer of such great strength that her remains still have the power to heal virtually anything.
[/quote]

I happen to agree, but I think the ashes relate to the presence of lyrium. We have lots of evidence from the Fade that magic is about will. A non-mage PC can dramatically alter reality in the Fade (shapeshifting, etc.). This is because in the Fade, what matters is will and your desire to make things exist. Magic, IMO, is just the talent for causing things to happen by will alone in reality. I think the lyrium infused ashes effectively allow people (who do have some affinity for the Fade; after all, elves and humans dream) to be really powerful spirit healers.

But that's just my crackpot theory. The general response is that we have no reason to believe any one particular take.

[The Edge]

Does the Chantry believe in the Maker alone, or does it believe in the old gods as well? If they don't believe in the old gods, and Morrigan wishes to give birth to one, maybe she's trying to shake the Chantry up and topple it somehow...