75 réponses à ce sujet

[RavenStorm]

"The thing is that opposing the Chantry directly in the events of DA:O isn't just disruptive--it's downright stupid.  For any PC, no matter how anti-Chantry.  There's a Blight of all things going on...so...we're going to spend our time picking fights with the Chantry?  

If you play an elf, dwarf, or mage, you do get to thumb your nose at the Chantry on numerous occasions.  As others in this thread have pointed out, there are legitimate in-game alternate interpretations of things like the Fade, Maker, Old Gods, Andraste, and the Urn of Sacred Ashes, without defaulting to Chantry orthodoxy.

Though I can't see an actively anti-Chantry PC in DA:O, it might make sense in DA2.  Think about it--Kirkwall is in the iron grip of a templar theocracy.  Hawke becomes the "Champion of Kirkwall."  That could mean anything from working with the templars to actively overthrowing them and establishing a new order."


  How would that have been any different then taking time out to go do basic side quest deeds like fighting Flemeth?  Or having to take the time to deal with Loghain in general? Especially if in your case of role playing it might actually make this fantasy world a better place? Then it would also have benefits like seeing to it that people like the Dwarves get to keep their own identities and beliefs, instead of having the Chantry take over. As was alluded to by a side quest.

 Besides I'm refering to the design of the game as wished for not playing it as is.

Modifié par RavenStorm, 24 juillet 2010 - 08:31 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

RavenStorm wrote...
  How would that have been any different then taking time out to go do basic side quest deeds like fighting Flemeth?  Or having to take the time to deal with Loghain in general? Especially if in your case of role playing it might actually make this fantasy world a better place? Then it would also have benefits like seeing to it that people like the Dwarves get to keep their own identities and beliefs, instead of having the Chantry take over. As was alluded to by a side quest.

 Besides I'm refering to the design of the game as wished for not playing it as is.

My point is that in DA:O, you've got bigger fish to fry.  Dragon-sized fish to fry.  You had to deal with Loghain because his little power-grab weakened Ferelden to the point that you couldn't retaliate effectively against the Blight.  If you'd picked a fight with the Chantry at large, on top of Loghain's shenanigans, on top of the FREAKING BLIGHT, everyone would have been killed.  Horribly.  

Admittedly side-quests are tangential at best for the main plot, but taking on the entire Chantry would be like trying to take down the Roman Catholic Church.  It's not a side-quest, it's a main quest.  A main quest that would eat up a lot of your time and resources.

Though you might just get your wish in DA2.  Check out the line about the Chantry here: http://social.biowar...1/index/3226955

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 24 juillet 2010 - 09:15 .

[Stormghost]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Though you might just get your wish in DA2.  Check out the line about the Chantry here: http://social.biowar...1/index/3226955

:happy: That sounds mouth-wateringly exciting.  To think Morrigan perhaps played a part in toppling the Chantry's grip on power.  Oh, I'm excited now.

[Sable Rhapsody]

davidk1991 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Though you might just get your wish in DA2.  Check out the line about the Chantry here: http://social.biowar...1/index/3226955

:happy: That sounds mouth-wateringly exciting.  To think Morrigan perhaps played a part in toppling the Chantry's grip on power.  Oh, I'm excited now.

So am I.  SO.  EXCITAMENTED.

[Eternal Phoenix]

@Shinian2

Seek and ye shall find. 

http://www.google.co...21a5612ebce6ad5

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 27 juillet 2010 - 04:29 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

In Exile wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...

There were Demons in the game and Ghosts proving some sort of after life existed and we have Ghosts in our world. So there is some proof. Nevertheless I don't want to get into a debate about evidence of a divine power in our world or in DA's world. I think The Maker should remain hidden. There should be more information about him and even dialogues where you can make Hawke say is a devout believer or doesn't believe at all. However I wouldn't want The Maker playing an active role in DA. I think it would be better if you just hear of him like you did in DA. Religion should have the same role in DA 2 as it did in DA:O.

Demons in the game do not prove that there exists anything else divine. One supernatural thing does not imply another, unrelated supernatural thing, and demons aren't supernatural at all. They're like rocks, or other parts of the world. After all, in-setting, the Fade is very real. Things that are part of the Fade aren't considered supernatural.

I can't seem to recall any ghosts. The closest we've come is the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest, but there is a plausible alternative explanation for that. More importantly, theologically (for the Chantry) ghosts shouldn't exist.

The Chantry say that some spirits (those that don't accept The Maker, or those that are evil) wonder The Fade. Others may be in The Fade because a demon is keeping them there. Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real and thus I stand by my point. 

[Eternal Phoenix]

davidk1991 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Though you might just get your wish in DA2.  Check out the line about the Chantry here: http://social.biowar...1/index/3226955

:happy: That sounds mouth-wateringly exciting.  To think Morrigan perhaps played a part in toppling the Chantry's grip on power.  Oh, I'm excited now.

Duncan will rebuild it. Duncan lives on through Hawke. Remember his words "Maker watch over you" so he will rebuild it and you will have no choice over this whatsoever! Weep in agony as you build the greatest Chantry in the whole world!  Ha ha ha ha ha!!! 

[Godak]

Vandicus wrote...

The Guardian in the temple broke one of the Cardinal Rules of Magic, no immortality.

No he didn't. You can kill him.

[AlanC9]

Elton John is dead wrote...
Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real..

How so?

[Wittand25]

Elton John is dead wrote...
The Chantry say that some spirits (those that don't accept The Maker, or those that are evil) wonder The Fade. Others may be in The Fade because a demon is keeping them there. Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real and thus I stand by my point. 

DA:O does not contain prov of an afterlife. The Chantry believes that souls pass into the fade after the death, but this has never been observed by anyone, nor has there been a recorded incident of a mage meeting the soul of an deceased in the fade.

[Eternal Phoenix]

AlanC9 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real..

How so?

An afterlife means that people have souls. Eternal souls that never age or get destroyed (even though you can kill Ghosts in the game, it doesn't mean you are killing them, you are simply sending them back to The Fade) and this shows that something powerful must have created them - a creator god; The Maker. 

[Anarya]

AlanC9 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real..

How so?

Yeah I don't see how this proves anything other than the fact that there is an afterlife. Which we don't even know exists in DA. Wynne makes it sound like you go to the Fade when you die, but Justice will tell you that even the Fade spirits have no idea what happens after death.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Wittand25 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
The Chantry say that some spirits (those that don't accept The Maker, or those that are evil) wonder The Fade. Others may be in The Fade because a demon is keeping them there. Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real and thus I stand by my point. 

DA:O does not contain prov of an afterlife. The Chantry believes that souls pass into the fade after the death, but this has never been observed by anyone, nor has there been a recorded incident of a mage meeting the soul of an deceased in the fade.

Mages claimed that they saw souls in the Fade at the end of DA:O. 

[Bobad]

I like that the religon has ambiguity to it, just like real life.

Plus the Urn of Sacred Ashes can heal people just like the Shroud of Turin makes you invisible.

Modifié par Bobad, 27 juillet 2010 - 04:54 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

Anarya wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real..

How so?

Yeah I don't see how this proves anything other than the fact that there is an afterlife. Which we don't even know exists in DA. Wynne makes it sound like you go to the Fade when you die, but Justice will tell you that even the Fade spirits have no idea what happens after death.

He said that he has no idea of what lies beyond the fade. The people with him were dead and were in the fade. After killing the baroness they moved onto elsewhere. Considering they had died already and went to the fade, there must be another place they past to. 

[AlanC9]

Elton John is dead wrote...
An afterlife means that people have souls. Eternal souls that never age or get destroyed (even though you can kill Ghosts in the game, it doesn't mean you are killing them, you are simply sending them back to The Fade) and this shows that something powerful must have created them - a creator god; The Maker. 

The part in italic does not follow. Souls could simply be eternal, full stop. Or they could come into existence and then be eternal, without being created by anything powerful.

[Wittand25]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Wittand25 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
The Chantry say that some spirits (those that don't accept The Maker, or those that are evil) wonder The Fade. Others may be in The Fade because a demon is keeping them there. Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real and thus I stand by my point. 

DA:O does not contain prov of an afterlife. The Chantry believes that souls pass into the fade after the death, but this has never been observed by anyone, nor has there been a recorded incident of a mage meeting the soul of a deceased in the fade.

Mages claimed that they saw souls in the Fade at the end of DA:O. 

when exactly does this happen? Because I cannot recall anyone saying that.
What I wrote comes from the collectors edition game guide and is also part of the codex, but of course anything in the game would be more important than those sources.

[Anarya]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Anarya wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Elton John is dead wrote...
Still, an afterlife proves that a creator god is real..

How so?

Yeah I don't see how this proves anything other than the fact that there is an afterlife. Which we don't even know exists in DA. Wynne makes it sound like you go to the Fade when you die, but Justice will tell you that even the Fade spirits have no idea what happens after death.

He said that he has no idea of what lies beyond the fade. The people with him were dead and were in the fade. After killing the baroness they moved onto elsewhere. Considering they had died already and went to the fade, there must be another place they past to. 

Yes that's the implication but there's not really any information. The Fade can harbor the souls of the dead that can't move on, the same as the ghosts in the physical world, but I wouldn't call it a real afterlife. It certainly seems like there is another place you move on to when you die but who's to say you don't just wink out of existence either? I kind of doubt we'll ever get confirmation of an afterlife. I mean we don't have that in real life either and DA's handling of religion seems to very closely follow ours.

[Wittand25]

Elton John is dead wrote...
He said that he has no idea of what lies beyond the fade. The people with him were dead and were in the fade. After killing the baroness they moved onto elsewhere. Considering they had died already and went to the fade, there must be another place they past to. 

That is technically not right. The people you encounter there did not die and enter the fade, they were forced to enter the fade through a rift still alive and died later or at the same time in the real world. Something similar happens at the circle tower, in both cases you never meet the soul of a dead person you only encounter the echo of once living beeings that were forced into the fade.

[Games4ever]

I don't believe in any god or any religion,but I don't mind they use a little in DA2

[soteria]

One thing that fascinates me about the theology of Thedas is the existence of what we would call "supernatural," such as the Fade, spirits, and magic in general. Of course, in Thedas, those are all natural. The reason it interests me is that in our world, many atheists appeal to the absurd to dismiss religion in general without ever giving it much of a chance. They'll point to the burning bush, the plagues in Egypt, or other miracles and say, "You expect me, a thinking person, to believe that?" In Thedas, I think the arguments are a lot more honest, and they have to be. I see it as a good thing.

[nikki191]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

The chantry people boring as hell. Make them like the Taliban or something. You know, exciting?

they are like the taliban.. the have the templars and ****** them off enough and you have an exalted march and conversion at the point of a sword

[Eternal Phoenix]

In the Elven ruins you see two Ghosts. One of the dialogue choices for the second one is; "Begone spirit, you have no place here." So obviously the spirit is a ghost of a dead person which again proves that an afterlife exists in the DA universe. Why would people turn into a spirit and then after they past through the fade, cease to exist at all when they already are alive after death as their spirit. It wouldn't make sense. Also when I said that a spirit being eternal being proves a creator god; I mean that only a divine being with power beyond what we can imagine could create something that can last forever and never be destroyed.