111 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hawke is human only
http://social.biowar...ex/3052334&lf=8

[MaliceDelight]

I read



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Dragon Age Origins won awards so it wasn't broken. I want to continue the story of the original with the characters I have now. The new one sounds like an interesting idea and if they'd started it that way, maybe I would be more interested.But since I want just to continue with what I started in the first one, I doubt I will be buying this second one, at least based on what I've read of it so far."



Somewhere.....my feelings exactally. Bioware broke my heart but not finishing my game and giving me cliff hangers that didn't do the story justice. however i'll hold my breathe for DLC's that finish my current story in limbo. If that isn't resolved in my mind i probly wont purchase the next one. I dont really want to invest another 80 hours into a game in order for it to not end haha. Maybe i'll rent it, we'll see how bioware unfolds the game it still has out with dlc.

[Costin_Razvan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

If I want cynematic feelings, I'll watch a movie. And even then, I prefer to be emotionally emersed and involved than have this cynematic feeling whatever it is. I like Mass Effect. But DA should keep away from its example.

That's your opinion. Apparently the mainstream disagree with you Knight. I felt far more connected and immersed while playing Mass Effect 1+2 then I ever did with Dragon Age: Origins. Honestly I can't feel connected with my characters in Dragon Age when I barely see their faces only once in a while in few dialogues.

Perhaps I am biased, because I finished Mass Effect on my female Shepard and 2nd playthrough only two days after Dragon Age came out. When I started my DN playthrough I was immediately disappointed that my character didn't have a voice and I felt it was just a cheap shot of replicating WoW Combat.

Watching the interaction between Shepard and others in ME1 and 2 is like watching a movie you can direct, and I honestly like that. As for the combat, although I felt their way of handling some stuff ( like snipers ) in ME 1 was utter crap, I still liked it a lot to see shooter combat in an RPG. ( I was quite weary when I got Mass Effect 1 that it would be the same as Kotor except no Lightsabers ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 juillet 2010 - 11:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Then the "mainstream" will have to settle with buying other games and not ruin a great fanchise because of their tastes. Of course, business doesn't work that way. Which is why Tocqueville is a genius for saying that majority rule is the death of art. "Mainstream" is artless.

EDITE to avoid being interpretted as a personal attack.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2010 - 11:43 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Different people have different tastes, both opinions our opinions our valid, it's just that the opinion I presented is preffered by the majority.

Bioware never promised a continuation to Dragon Age: Origins, while they did so far Mass Effect. I knew from the moment I saw the Awakening ending screen that my character's journey was over ( they did the same thing with Baldur's Gate and Jade Empire you know ).

A lot of people that frequent these Dragon Age forums are pissed about the changes, others don't care and others welcome them. The fact however remains that Dragon Age didn't pay off in terms of monetary gain as they hoped it would, their own mistake by launching it just 2 months before Mass Effect 2.

The only thing that ever made me come back to Dragon Age Origins were my companions. I finished Dragon Age: Origins 5 times ( once time which was a replay of my DN though ) and 3 times Awakening ( and I likely won't play Awakening ever again ).

On my DN I romanced Morrigan, then went back to Orzammar to take back the Deep Roads.
On my DE I romanced Alistair, hardened him and the put his ass on the throne with Anora.
On my HN I romanced Leliana, then she ended it when I married Anora
On DC I romanced Zevran and we happily ended up staying in Denerim.

I am currently trying to to make a mage that will romance hardened Alistair, put him solo on the throne while she remains his mistress then become Chancellor but given I how dislike killing Loghain ( though I did it twice and then did the whole Final Battle with Alistair, reloaded and spared Loghain and finished the game like that ) I find it unlikely....I also won't make a CE despite the fact I finished the Origin..

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 08 juillet 2010 - 11:57 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

And it's because people have different tastes, that games shouldn't be mainstreamed and "mutted" to make everyone happy, but diversified where everyone can pick the genre he likes best. This trend of "mutting" is increasing more and more, and games are feeling the same all over, just to appease everyone. One day, this will cease to impress anyone.

Of couse, companies dominated by short term views will go for what the majority likes, even if the majority is idiotic for the most part (not accusing you of idiocy). And it's just tragic, if inevitable.

[Costin_Razvan]

Of couse, companies dominated by short term views will go for what the majority likes, even if the majority is idiotic for the most part (not accusing you of idiocy). And it's just tragic, if inevitable.

Perhaps, but in the middle of an economic crysis, it's the best choice to make if you want your company to survive.

I can't even start describing what I felt when I realized the bull**** Blizzard had pulled at WOTLK start. They did fix it for hardcore players eventually but by then I was long gone from the game. ( though honestly the bull**** Bioware is pulling off beats Blizzard's own by a Landslide. At least Blizzard refuses to release game that are not top quality in performance. )

P.S. I would suggest trying out the Witcher 1 and you will understand ( or not ) why I prefer the Mass Effect model over the classic RPG model of Dragon Age.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 juillet 2010 - 12:10 .

[Hyper Cutter]

Slidell505 wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I hope it's not like in Fable where if you take too long you start getting really old.

By to long you mean like an hour and a half, right? You aged incerdibly quickly in that game.

It was based on leveling your stats, iirc...

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Watching the interaction between Shepard and others in ME1 and 2 is like watching a movie you can direct, and I honestly like that.

That is exactly what is wrong with that system.  If I wanted to watch a movie, I'd watch a movie.  "Cinematic" is boring after the initial ooh-ahh because it has no depth.  Which is fine if you like that sort of thing, but Mass Effect and any number of other such games exist for those who do.  I don't want to be forced to play someone else's character, I want to play my character.  And I hope they leave DA as a more open-ended, literary storytelling type of game for those of us who do like that sort of thing.  Not all games have to be the same.

Consider:  What if you don't like Shepard?  I took an instant dislike to the female voice in Mass Effect, and I dislike playing a male PC, so that pretty much killed the game for me.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 juillet 2010 - 02:21 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Then that's your own personal opinion Addai....I don't blame anyone who feels that way but you should realize game companies can't afford to cater to the minority, not with the current economy being what it is.



I don't think this is about EA pulling the strings. Hell if I was Ray Muzyka and I saw that Dragon Age: Origins, ( the game that got more money and development time then Mass Effect 1 + 2 combined ) had gotten less sales then Mass Effect 2 then I also would be snapping at the developers to change how the game works.

[sami jo]

I prefer classic RPG's over ME-style play. I realize that the audience for such games is smaller than for things like ME. ME is not really an RPG, though. The options to role play in the classic sense are pretty limited. WoW et al are also not true RPG's there is precious little story there. The draw of a shooter or a hack and slash with a decent story is higher than for a true RPG, but just adding a decent story and a handful of choices does not make a game an RPG. Yes, DA:O sold fewer copies per development dollar than ME1 and 2, but it sold far better than any other true RPG ever has. It was and is a huge hit, and it had the potential to draw more people into the RPG market and into the gaming market in general. It has a far higher draw for female gamers, a largely untapped audience. It has a larger draw for older gamers--again a largely untapped audience with more money to spare than the usual gamer market.



No, DA:O didn't make as much money as the ME franchise; but it didn't lose money either and it has continued to make money with DLC (even as disappointing as the majority of the DLC has been). Altering DA2 to focus on their "core" audience and patterning it on ME with limited character customization and limited choice will cut down on development costs, may well make them more money in the short term. Then again, it may well lose them a large chunk of the DA:O fan base. And, in this economy, I want value for my dollar. I've gotten hundreds of hours of play from DA:O. It was worth my money and I'd buy it again--hell, I did buy it again so that I could play it on the PC. I would un-purchase Awakening if I could. It just wasn't worth it for me.



I suspect that my next BW purchase will be TOR instead of DA2, and I will probably wait until DA2 hits the bargain rack. I'm already skipping DLCs. BioWare could have milked hundreds more dollars from me if they had kept the quality and immersion up.

[Costin_Razvan]

Out of curiosity Sami have you played Mass Effect 1 and 2 to see the full extent of the choices you are presented in it. You have a lot in the way of customizing Shepard. Yes you don't have interactions with the crew as deep as you have the DA:O companions, but honestly that doesn't make the ME games any less RPG then Dragon Age.



A "true" RPG isn't at ALL related to your interaction with your companions, but rather how deep the choices you have in it are ( and yes the choices in ME 1 and 2 have a deep impact ).



I can see a grain of truth in people who say the lack of loot in ME2, and the simplified leveling system would make it a less truer RPG however.

Yes, DA:O sold fewer copies per development dollar than ME1 and 2, but it sold far better than any other true RPG ever has

Which is irrelevant to companies that are seeking to make a big a profit as they can, and I wouldn't say it sold "far" better then any other true RPG. Fallout 3 shipped about 4.7 million copies on RELEASE, they probably sold about 6-7 million copies by now....which is far more then Dragon Age ( not so sure about Mass Effect though ), and it follows the system of this so called "true" RPG, that people keep waving around, to the letter.

It has a far higher draw for female gamers, a largely untapped audience. It has a larger draw for older gamers--again a largely untapped audience with more money to spare than the usual gamer market.

If you are somehow insinuating that the ME2 franchise doesn't have a big female player base then I honestly suggest you take a deep look at the ME forums. You will see a lot of female players there, perhaps more then even the entire player base that posts on the Dragon Age forums.



The fact the majority of people that post here on the Dragon Age forums are females means jack **** as the Dragon Age forums have far less people then the ME forums and it might very well mean that many male players that bought Dragon Age don't bother with the forums.



As for the whole maturity thing. Surveys have shown that the vast majority of gamers playing any type of game are over the age 20, and that most have their own source of income and don't rely on others. In WoW the averege player age is about 28 for males and 32 for females ( and WoW has a female base of about 16% ). Only 20% of people playing games are under 18 years old.



So the whole maturity thing is a moot point.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Because people over 20 are necessarily mature? Maybe I just have a very pessimistic outlook on humanity's situation.

I agree with Addai, but we can't deny the truth in Costin's words and deep down inside, I knew it was inevitable. DA was bound to get streamlined to get more sales, which is the first and ONLY concern of all gaming companies. Sad, but an inevitable truth. But if we stretch that logic, all games have to be like Halo 3 and CoD4. Halo 3 got 170 million $ on first day of release alone. Anbd it's this trend we fear and legitimately so. If we apply the logic of satisfying the majority no matter how idiotic they are, all gaming companies ought to make their games more like those 2 and that's exactly what's happening. It's also inevitable.

Sigh, all we have now is to keep enjoying DA:O and lament our majoritarian non-Elitist system.

[Costin_Razvan]

No they are not, but I got the feeling that Sami was not referring to maturity in the sense of personality but rather the fact they have their own source of steady income.

After playing WoW for 3 years I am even MORE pessimistic about humanity then you are.

  But if we stretch that logic, all games have to be like Halo 3 and CoD4. Halo 3 got 170 million $ on first day of release alone.

Perhaps, but Halo 3 is for all intents and purposes a shooter. I have only compared Dragon Age release to Mass Effect  and Fallout 3. Yes Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 2 where sequels for previous games, but let's not ignore Dragon Age was a spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate. ( one of the most popular RPG series of all time )

The whole thing with Dragon Age having an older audience might just be the fact that a lot of people who got Baldur's Gate about 9 years ago also bought Dragon Age when it came out, and I have seen quite a few Baldur's Gate fans saying that Dragon Age wasn't even remotely close to being as deep as BG.

So in that sense Bioware had a choice: Cater Dragon Age 2 to Baldur's Gate fans, or cater it to fans of the Mass Effect system....they chose the latter for various reasons.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 juillet 2010 - 05:05 .

[Jaulen]

Never played Baulder's Gate on PC....never really played games before DA:O. I'm a segement of the untapped female market. Heck, DA:O is the FIRST video game I have ever played on a PC. Started playing it on the PS#, got addicted to it, and went and bought it for my laptop while I was out in the field and away from the PS3.



Shooter games? Final Fantasy? Halo? Army of Two? nope, no interest in playing (although I do play Civilizations and Wii games) Mainly becuase I have no interest in shooter games, or modern setting games.....



I was interested in the storyline, the companion interactions, being able to start as different characters, and the hype that choices you made in-game changed the world (although I will admit being disappointed there that choices didn't REALLY affect the world until the epi cards).



Haven't played ME at all, don't know if I want to, not interested in the plot. If DA:2 changes the story/character driven with combat immersability of the original game too much, and nothing else comes out like or better than DA:O for being able to get invested in a character you build (heck I CRIED and I don't cry IRL)....well then, I'll probably never buy another PC game again. But then I'm just one person so would have no voice with EA/Bioware.

[sami jo]

@Costin: Yes, I have played them both.  I don't dislike either of them, but there is little to no ability to make Shepard a true OC as you can in DA:O.  There is some ability to choose your own story line. romances etc, but Shepard is still Shepard.  I can play through as Renegade and Paragon and then the majority of my possible choices are pretty much exhausted.  There was little to inspire visions of what might happen outside of the literal gameplay for me, and I would suspect others as well given the sheer volume of "serious" story-driven fanfic for DA:O and the relative lack of it for ME and ME2 given the relative numbers of gamers.  I'm not saying that ME1 and 2 aren't popular games and don't have a significant number of female gamers, nor am I saying that they don't have RPG elements.  But the key of an RPG for me, and for a lot of people who enjoy "classic" RPGs that grew out of table-top D&D-style games, is the ability to create our own character and immerse ourselves in that character and in the characters in our party while exploring an epic story line.  That requires a lot of choices from character creation all the way through the story. 

In ME and now in DA2, we are playing through the story of one character of the writer's creation.  It's "choose your own adventure" not RPG.  That vast array of choices is what makes DA:O such an amazing (and expensive to develop) game even with the myriad bugs, and what makes Awakenings far less appealing for so many.  It wasn't awful, but it has all the bugs of Origins and doesn't have the same ability to pull most people into the story. 

ME is a good series.  It has an interesting story and frankly, it has better programming than DA:O. I understand why they are going this direction.  All I am saying is that they are giving up a market that has the potential to be much larger in favor of short term rewards.  EA is not hurting for money, even in this economy.  The reality is that ME has no more choice than the original KOTOR and doesn't have that much more gameplay.  It just costs more.  This isn't an epic amount of choice.  It is something they accomplished a decade ago and are going back to because it's expensive and risky to do more.  DA:O went further.  TOR looks as if it will go further.

I'm certain that the story of DA2 will be excellent.  The original writers are all there and they are amazing.  I'm sure the cost to develop it will be far less, since clearly the development time is far shorter.  It cannot possibly have the array of choices that make me love DA:O and cannot have the replayability of DA:O.  I have close to a dozen runs through Origins, and no two characters are alike--not even the horde of MDE's I seem to favor playing.  

I did a Paragon female spacer run through ME1.  My husband did a Renegade male.  I watched parts of his playthrough.  After that, it went on a shelf.  I had no desire to play it again.  Same thing happened with ME2.  We actually just borrowed it from my brother-in-law.  I enjoyed it.  I might play it again at some point.  I've certainly gone back to KOTOR.  I know I'm not the "typical" gamer.  I hate most shooters.  I associate RPG with the tabletop games I played when I was my son's age.  That is the experience I am looking for in something labled RPG.  That is what many of the grumpy fans associate with RPG. ME does not deliver that.  A game with a story and some level of choice does not qualify as an RPG for me.

Edited because grammar is a good thing.

Modifié par sami jo, 09 juillet 2010 - 05:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ME1 didn't have a whole lot of choices and the way they were imported into ME2 was mediocre at best, they had no major impact. ME2 had more choices, but it remains to be seen whether they will be relevent in ME3. Chances are, they won't. Sorry, but choices were never ME's strong point for me.

[Costin_Razvan]

Sami: That's your opinion, but it is not the only valid one, remember that.

All I am saying is that they are giving up a market that has the potential to be much larger in favor of short term rewards

And this is where we have to disagree. The kind of market you are proposing if far smaller then the kind of market Mass Effect has for example, always has and always will be.

 ME2 had more choices, but it remains to be seen whether they will be relevent in ME3. Chances are, they won't. Sorry, but choices were never ME's strong point for me.

Name one RPG where your choices have a deep impact in the game itself and not in some epilogue slides.

The fact that many BG fans choose to play Dragon Age: Origins doesn't mean that the majority of people that got Dragon Age: Origins liked the old RPG system. The Mass Effect/Witcher system has proven to draw on far more fans.

Potential means almost next to zero compared to the cold hard fact that making Dragon Age 2 the way the are making it now is what will give them far MORE sales then Dragon Age. What you feel an RPG should be like is in the minority as an opinion, even among Dragon Age: Origins fans.

Companies always want to make a game that will deliver them as much money as possible, not one that will deliver them less but might have the long term benefit of giving them more customers for future games. That's how it is.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 juillet 2010 - 05:59 .

[sami jo]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Sami: That's your opinion, but it is not the only valid one, remember that.

All I am saying is that they are giving up a market that has the potential to be much larger in favor of short term rewards

And this is where we have to disagree. The kind of market you are proposing if far smaller then the kind of market Mass Effect has for example, always has and always will be.

 ME2 had more choices, but it remains to be seen whether they will be relevent in ME3. Chances are, they won't. Sorry, but choices were never ME's strong point for me.

Name one RPG where your choices have a deep impact in the game itself and not in some epilogue slides.

The fact that many BG fans choose to play Dragon Age: Origins doesn't mean that the majority of people that got Dragon Age: Origins liked the old RPG system. The Mass Effect/Witcher system has proven to draw on far more fans.

Potential means almost next to zero compared to the cold hard fact that making Dragon Age 2 the way the are making it now is what will give them far MORE sales then Dragon Age. What you feel an RPG should be like is in the minority as an opinion, even among Dragon Age: Origins fans.

Companies always want to make a game that will deliver them as much money as possible, not one that will deliver them less but might have the long term benefit of giving them more customers for future games. That's how it is.

I never pretended that my opinion was the only valid one.  Nor did I mean to imply that the potential audience for "traditional" RPGs is larger than that for hybrids like ME.  I'm simply saying that the audience for traditional RPGs is potentially much larger than it currently is.  Just look at how many first time RPG players were attracted to DA:O. 

I don't know of many DA:O fans who are screaming for less choice.  Actually, there have been grumpy complaints that there aren't more choices.  I am not making demands.  I am simply saying what I would like to see companies developing, and while the market is clearly not as big as the market for ME or HALO, it is there and good games will increase it.  I hate to see traditional RPGs disappear because they aren't "mainstream" enough.  This is not an itty bitty niche market, it is one that drew in millions of gamers.  I love the trend of improving writing in all games.  I don't hate ME or something.  It's just not the type of game I prefer.  I would prefer a game market with variety.  I don't want nothing but ME clones, or HALO clones or even DA:O clones.  Bioware has traditionally specialized in story-driven RPGs.  That's is their traditional fan base.  I'm sad to see them leaving that behind.  It might make them a bigger game company.  I don't know if that is better or not.  They seem to be redefining themselves. 

I'm glad you like the direction that they are taking the next game.  It doesn't particularly appeal to me, and I am obviously not the only one.  Am I in the minority? I don't know.  I somehow doubt that most of the fans want less choice.  A majority may be thrilled about the VO.  A chunk probably just don't care and won't even get the game if it doesn't get good reviews.  I will probably get it at some point.  I'm a good deal more excited about TOR right now.

[Costin_Razvan]

I doubt Dragon Age attracted so much new RPG players as you make it out to be. A lot of people that played Dragon Age were either Baldur Gate fans or simply people who had played RPGs before. I think the new players are a minority, one that is vocal on the forums true but a minority nonetheless.



For me one of the major selling point of Dragon Age was the ability to play a dwarf as main character rather then having him as a secondary one ( as it goes in most fantasy settings out there ). I am sad to see it go, but I do not hold it against Bioware as I know that the vast majority of people played a Human Character.



Put yourself in Bioware's shoes for a second. If you could make a game that would cost HALF of what Dragon Age did and sell it to MORE people, then wouldn't you? I sure as hell would.



Anyone who expected to see your PC again and your companions, especially after Awakening is sodding naive in my view.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I doubt Dragon Age attracted so much new RPG players as you make it out to be. A lot of people that played Dragon Age were either Baldur Gate fans or simply people who had played RPGs before. I think the new players are a minority, one that is vocal on the forums true but a minority nonetheless.

Which implies that they want classic RPGs and should not be happy with the direction they are taking.

And it's not complete naïveté to expect a continuation of our PCs when the Awakening epilogue heavily hinted at it. Almost explicitly so. If they didn't plan to do it, then they should have quite frankly stfu and said nothing.
 
But it's not a new PC that is bothering me personally. It's what I've seen and heard so far which is unimpressive.

[Giggles_Manically]

I like Macaroni and Cheese.

[Costin_Razvan]

Knight: My point was that it was naive to expect a continuation and be completely and utterly surprised ( as several people are ) that there isn't any.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I like Macaroni and Cheese.

The restaurant we ate in today gave us Chocolat fondue absolutely free.
Middle Eastern hospitality at its finest!

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I like Macaroni and Cheese.

The restaurant we ate in today gave us Chocolat fondue absolutely free.
Middle Eastern hospitality at its finest!

I ate at the Calgary Farmers Market today, so much free food, and drinks too!

Also I am going to stop rageposting and wait now. Besides I am buying Witcher 2 since the trailer was good and people here seemed to have liked 1.