180 réponses à ce sujet

[Jestina]

Yes, just write everything for me. I'll just sit here and mindlessly push buttons.

[Batman90]

Comparing a JRPG where there is no choices, no character creation

Who said a video game needs to have plenty of choices and/or character creation in order to be good? I think it's stupid if you only limit yourself to one type of game without enjoying a huge variety of titles.

and more often than not is some generic male teen who looks very femanine,

It's no better than a game featuring some generic, grizzled macho man space marine or some ****. Western-developed videogames are just as bad as JRPG-developed games in terms of character development.

and should have been a female character in that case,

Why? Whoever said that male characters having feminine traits is a bad thing (Or the other way around, for that matter)?

That's very conservative "pro-gender role" thinking. 

and a story so generic that a four year old could probably write something better to a game where the player's actions could affect the storythe player can choose gender, race and basically have a reasonable say on their character is like comparing rotted meat to fresh meat and saying what's more edible.

 
Again, WRPG story-telling is no better. The vast majority of WRPG story-telling consists of "lolorcs" fighting "lolknights" speaking in "lolye olde English" in a LotR rip-off of a setting with no strong themes or morals to the story. To say that one genre of "RPG" is worse than the other in terms of story-telling is to speak out of fanboyism/fangirlism.

JRPG's are still very much in a time where choice was non-existent and the player did as they were told to do while WRPG's can cater for choice, not always, but at times they do.

And WRPGs are still stuck in a time where everything is a Tolkien rip-off and the choices are limited to superficial "I'm a saint or I'm pure evil" morality, and the story-line consists of disconnected modules that don't form a well-made cohesive whole.

I prefer WRPG's to JRPG's any day now, I'm tired of the usual 'male teen must save world'universe' nonsense.

Again, fanboyism/girlism. I'm tired of the whole "ye olde English-speaker must save the world from orcs and goblins" nonsense. The fact of the matter is that both RPG genres are stagnant.

Especially the sub-genre hasn't progressed to the point of character creation, gender choice and general choices.

Again, lacking in character creation or choice isn't a bad thing, and they aren't needed for good games. You may not be interested in games that don't allow you to do those things, and that's fine, but that is your subjective (And I'd argue close-minded, seeing as the vast majority of video games do not have character customization or a vast quantity of choices) taste, and it does not reflect the objective quality of the videogames.

Modifié par Batman90, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:13 .

[the_one_54321]

ReinaHW wrote...
Comparing a JRPG where there is no choices, no character creation and more often than not is some generic male teen who looks very femanine, and should have been a female character in that case, and a story so generic that a four year old could probably write something better to a game where the player's actions could affect the story, the player can choose gender, race and basically have a reasonable say on their character is like comparing rotted meat to fresh meat and saying what's more edible.

Wow. That was all meaningless.
Seriously, the very last thing any BioWare fan should complain about is cliche of any type.
You're talking about stylistic differences and it's matter of purely "it's just not my thing." That much I could respect with no trouble. But the stereotypical complaints about JRPGs, as listed above, are a bunch of garbage. There are literally charts that catagorize the repetition and cliche that are rempant in games like BioWares.

The camparison to FFXII was entirely about the subtlety of choices available and the physical structure of the game map. The world. And how real and interactive that world felt. Drop the hate and address the things that are actually being talked about. While you're at it, dropping the man bashing would be nice too. No one here is making any sexist comments about women.

[Batman90]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The camparison to FFXII was entirely about the subtlety of choices available and the physical structure of the game map. The world. And how real and interactive that world felt. Drop the hate and address the things that are actually being talked about. While you're at it, dropping the man bashing would be nice too. No one here is making any sexist comments about women.

Exactly. It sounds as if that poster completely missed the point, and that if she actually played the game, she would know what I'm talking about.

The fact of the matter is that FFXII was filled with large, varied environments with plenty of exploration and plenty of optional content. BioWare should follow the FFXII level design example instead of the "disconnected module" style of DA:O (Which was still a great game, though).

Modifié par Batman90, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:19 .

[Jestina]

Final Fantasy went downhill around V or VI. I played some of XII and that was atrocious. That series went totally down the toilet.

[the_one_54321]

Wow. I love how you add all kinds of definition to your statements and make your opinion clear and easy to grasp instead of just throwing out a claim with no details or relation to the topic at hand.



/Sarcasm

[Batman90]

Jestina wrote...

Final Fantasy went downhill around V or VI. I played some of XII and that was atrocious. That series went totally down the toilet.

I disagree, because it didn't. FFV, FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, and FFXII all have the same amount (Or, hell, even more) of optional content as FFI-FFIV, the same well-designed battle systems (And improved; the ATB systems in VII, VIII, and IX are more fine-toned and have greater depth than the ATB system used in IV-VI), and the story-telling (Save for FFXII, but my praise for the game lies not in its story-telling, but in its gameplay and level design) has been of a consistent (Or even better, as I'd argue FFVII and FFIX have some of the best writing and themes of the series, whereas I through IV were more along the lines of stereotypical-RPG "knights n' dragons" junk) quality (The funny thing is that while "umg feminine teens" is a commonly-stated stereotype of the FF series, really, there aren't any games where this applies. FFVII feature Cloud, who was neither a teenager nor was he feminine (He had far more of a "punk" aesthetic), FFVIII featuerd a teenager who was not feminine in design, and FFIX was so completely different (In terms of style and atmosphere) that the same complaint can't really apply. FFXII had Vaan, sure, but he was hardly a main character and (I assume) was stuck in to the game only to appeal to Japanese audiences). FFXIII wasn't particularly good, but I'm not praising that game. So yeah, you really don't know what you're talking about.

Also, tell me, how much of FFXII did you play? And are you saying it's atrocious due to its plot or due to its gameplay (And the combat system is actually comparable to DA:O) and level design? Because, ultimately, this doesn't have to do with the quality of the Final Fantasy series, but what FFXII did right in terms of level design/story progression.

Modifié par Batman90, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:41 .

[ReinaHW]

I've played many JRPG's since the 90s, with my first being the very generic Shining In The Darkness on the Mega Drive/Genesis.

The Suikoden games I enjoyed a lot, though the main character was pretty boring, the story was excellent. The FF games I lost interest in pretty fast, the only one I enjoyed being FF8, the rest just had me bored to tears.



It was Star Ocean 3 and FF 12 which pretty much killed JRPG's for me because it was becoming too much of the same in terms of character personalities with little to no say, especially so in the FF games where I found myself wishing that they would at least have hired writers who can do for characters than someone who's still very much in their teens, or at least looked that way.

And the story had me yawning after a while since I had read such stories before when I was a kid.



I've grown up beyond JRPG's and generic male characters, at 31 I hope to see new ideas to an industry which is stuck in a rut with a lot of the same things and very few new ideas.

[Batman90]

ReinaHW wrote...

I've played many JRPG's since the 90s, with my first being the very generic Shining In The Darkness on the Mega Drive/Genesis.
The Suikoden games I enjoyed a lot, though the main character was pretty boring, the story was excellent.

 
We get it, the vast majority of JRPGs are generic. The point is, however, is that the vast majority of WRPGs are just as generic. Will you at least agree to this?

The FF games I lost interest in pretty fast, the only one I enjoyed being FF8, the rest just had me bored to tears.

I enjoyed FFVIII too, but I find it strange that the rest "bored you to tears" when FFVIII had a higher quantity of cliches than, say, FFVII (For its time, as what is considered cliche now, such as spikey-haired protagonists with huge swords, probably wasn't considered cliche back then. That's how cliches are formed--people keep copying other works--and that's why LotR can't be criticized for being cliche, but your average WRPG can), or FFIX, or FFVI. In addition to it being a bit more tedious in terms of gameplay than most of the other games in the series.

It was Star Ocean 3 and FF 12 which pretty much killed JRPG's for me because it was becoming too much of the same in terms of character personalities with little to no say, especially so in the FF games where I found myself wishing that they would at least have hired writers who can do for characters than someone who's still very much in their teens, or at least looked that way.

This doesn't have to do with the gameplay and story progression (The way the story progresses, not the story itself) of FFXII itself (Which is what we're talking about), and again, the story-telling in WRPGs are just as bad and usually feel as if they're written by some 12 year old who basically cut-and-pasted a bunch of high fantasy novels together and called it "original."

And the story had me yawning after a while since I had read such stories before when I was a kid.

Again.WRPGS are just as bad.

I've grown up beyond JRPG's and generic male characters, at 31 I hope to see new ideas to an industry which is stuck in a rut with a lot of the same things and very few new ideas.

Then you've also grown up beyond WRPGs and their generic characters, I assume. I'd like to see more Samus Arans (Strong female protagonists) too, but being able to create your own character isn't the only solution. I think it would be more powerful if the main character was female and it wasn't a "create your own character" kind of game. A new female icon, to stand by the sides of Samus Aran (Female iconic character in video games) and Wonder Woman (Female iconic character in comic books).

Modifié par Batman90, 08 juillet 2010 - 08:01 .

[element eater]

Paromlin wrote...

Because it's not a book or tv film, it's an rpg.

exactly nuff said

[Gambient]

I agree wholeheartedly with who said that Final Fantasy is bad. Final Fantasy is horrible now. JRPG's > WRPG's.

Modifié par Gambient, 08 juillet 2010 - 08:58 .

[Batman90]

Gambient wrote...

I agree wholeheartedly with who said that Final Fantasy is bad. Final Fantasy is horrible now. JRPG's > WRPG's.

Well, first off, why do you think that, given what I've stated in response to the person who said FF is bad? Secondly, did you even read the post that brought up FF in the first place (Which was about subtle options/choices and "multi-path" level design, not about how WRPGs should be like JRPGs, which is what the person who claimed FF is bad ignorantly assumed the post was about)? Also, those two bolded statements don't correspond well. Sure, some JRPG fans dislike FF, but still. Sense does not make.

Modifié par Batman90, 08 juillet 2010 - 09:16 .

[the_one_54321]

Wow, what a waste of a reply. This isn't about one being better than the other. Not at all.

[Batman90]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Wow, what a waste of a reply. This isn't about one being better than the other. Not at all.

Most people aren't going to take the time to consider that. The moment someone mentions a genre they're not a fan of, they'll go in to rage mode, responding in an angry fury without taking the post in to context. And then the rest of the sheeple who also dislike the genre (Or game, or whatever subject) will follow and post how much they agree, all while ignoring the context/message of the original post that brought up the subject they so very dislike, which is exactly what is happening here. So far, there has been one person who responded to my original idea (Who stated that he didn't like JRPGs) who actually addressed my point instead of just using it as an opportunity to stupidly bash on JRPGs. The rest, however, ignored the actual message and posted replies that were little more than "OOGA OOGA FF SUX." 

Modifié par Batman90, 08 juillet 2010 - 09:27 .

[Valmy]

snakepunk wrote...

Less options = less depth = more people playing = profit.

Well I like having options but generally when there are fewer of them it allows the developers to make the options more meaningful and give them more depth not less.  I mean if you could choose between 500 races, your choice would probably have zero impact on the game.  But with three choices of race in DAO the choice actually meant more.  That is what I am getting at.

So by limiting my options I hope they make up for it by making the options I do have be profoundly meaningful in the context of the game.

[Gena Mafer]

the_one_54321 wrote...

You know, good writers write their best when they are allowed some freedom to write what they wish. "Options" are like a choke chain on them that cuts them off when their creativity takes them anywhere that is solid or concrete.

"Choices and Consequences" once meant something. It's just hype nowadays. Someone in PR thinks it makes more sales.

And you know what's going to happen? Sometime in the future, some developer somewhere is going to pop up and say : "Are you fed up with fake and pseudo-choices in your RPGs?  Well, we're working hard on giving you the best linear game that we can; no resources were wasted in creating a game with false 'branching paths' or in giving you the illusion of choice."

And even though he will be full of it too, I kind of agree with that guy: a longer, more solid and better-told 'linear' story is much better than one that's half the length but features some ultimately modest deviations that depend on the players choices.

No matter what they say, the fact is that games are too expensive, and it's all too much about the bottom line nowadays for any game to have real choices-- nobody is going to put what would be like, say, three games into a single box,  and especially when they are so greedy that they currently  take half-sized games and chop them in multiple pieces and try to sell those.

Modifié par Gena Mafer, 08 juillet 2010 - 09:29 .

[the_one_54321]

Gena Mafer wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
You know, good writers write their best when they are allowed some freedom to write what they wish. "Options" are like a choke chain on them that cuts them off when their creativity takes them anywhere that is solid or concrete.

"Choices and Consequences" once meant something. It's just hype nowadays. Someone in PR thinks it makes more sales.

And you know what's going to happen? Sometime in the future, some developer somewhere is going to pop up and say : "Are you fed up with fake and pseudo-choices in your RPGs?  Well, we're working hard on giving you the best linear game that we can; no resources were wasted in creating a game with false 'branching paths' or in giving you the illusion of choice."

And even though he will be full of it too, I kind of agree with that guy: a longer, more solid and better-told 'linear' story is much better than one that's half the length but features some ultimately modest deviations that depend on the players choices.

Games are too expensive, and it's all too much about the bottom line nowadays for any game to have real choices-- nobody is going to put what would be like, say, three games into a single box,  and especially when they are so greedy that they currently  take half-sized games and chop them in multiple pieces and try to sell those.

That is so cynical, it makes me sad to mostly agree with it.

[ReinaHW]

Batman90 wrote...

snipped to avoid quote train

Until new ideas appear, or at least better writers with new ideas, then all RPG's are likely to be generic.  After a long while of 'being the chosen one' in games, it would be nice to see a different aspect done on the player character.

The issue with many female characters who aren't created by the player, not all but most, is that they tend to be made into some kind of male fantasy with a bust size so over sized that they would just have to turn and kill someone with a slight turn.
In real life such a woman with a slim body would have back problems after a while, the benefit of creating a female character is that the player can be more realistic, if they at least have the patience to try for that.  In Second Life the number of male fantasy female avatars can be horrible to see, if avatars complained then I think the ones in SL would be complaining while making their creators sorry for being born.

JRPG's are like the books read as a kid, they were fun back then, but over time you begin to notice that some things arent changing and as an adult you notice just how lacking they are.
JRPG's are much like a story for a four year old - Young male teen who's barely a decade out of nappies saving the world from a great evil/God/general loser with a grudge using weapons bigger than themselves, usually, with an expertise which would never happen in real life without decades of training and practice to use such large weapons.
Along with the usual love interest of a young girl a little younger or the same age as them who's usually helpless and needs saving from everything ranging from a tiny monster to their own bad hairstyles.

Such things were cute when I was young, but they don't interest me anymore.  WRPG's are still fairly generic, but at least I can create my character to my liking, well as long as the game allows for gender choice and character creation, and will sometimes have a stronger story than 'teen is chosen one'.
But gaming in general is largely generic due to the catering of those who find anything that isn't 'kick ball in net/have big gun and kill many/man save universe/world/man kill many because man rules all' and the other done to death plot lines to be far too complex and complicated for them to grasp.

Modifié par ReinaHW, 08 juillet 2010 - 09:50 .

[mopotter]

ReinaHW wrote...

Comparing a JRPG where there is no choices, no character creation and more often than not is some generic male teen who looks very femanine, and should have been a female character in that case, and a story so generic that a four year old could probably write something better to a game where the player's actions could affect the story, the player can choose gender, race and basically have a reasonable say on their character is like comparing rotted meat to fresh meat and saying what's more edible.

JRPG's are still very much in a time where choice was non-existent and the player did as they were told to do while WRPG's can cater for choice, not always, but at times they do.
I prefer WRPG's to JRPG's any day now, I'm tired of the usual 'male teen must save world'universe' nonsense. Especially the sub-genre hasn't progressed to the point of character creation, gender choice and general choices.

Until JRPG's progress the backwards notion of 'must have more CGI and prettier visuals', I doubt I'll be returning to them.

I've played some JRPG's and it wasn't that they were always teenagers, though that did get tiresome, it was they were adults who looked 11 that bothered me.   Xenosaga was the worst for me.  I enjoyed the game, but Jr an adult male who looked 12, creped me out.  

 I enjoyed a lot of the old games like Shining Force and Suikoden, some of the FF ones, but as you mentioned there were very few choices and I would pick a BioWare game over any other any day.   I was ecstatic the first time I played BG and got to pick a female for the lead character.  And when KOTOR came out and the female character didn't look like a playboy bunny, it was amazing.    After you play the best it's hard to go back.  

[Batman90]

ReinaHW wrote...

The issue with many female characters who aren't created by the player, not all but most, is that they tend to be made into some kind of male fantasy with a bust size so over sized that they would just have to turn and kill someone with a slight turn.

Yes, but in most "create your own character" video games all you get to customize is the face and skin tone. It isn't often that you get to change a character's body proportions (Mainly due to the complexities in creating so many different character models; of course, this is often used as an excuse for NPCs as well, which is why we never have any really fat or old, hunched over NPCs in Mass Effect, for example), so most of the time you're stuck with the bust size your character is given, making your point irrelevant.

In Second Life the number of male fantasy female avatars can be horrible to see, if avatars complained then I think the ones in SL would be complaining while making their creators sorry for being born.

So you're now saying that being able to create your own character is a bad thing because it will result in even more "male fantasy" female avatars?

On a side note, I don't really think you should judge people who make these "fantasy avatars." Ultimately, we're animals, and as animals, we feel sexual urges; shouldn't males be able to create huge-breasted bimbo avatars as long as females are able to create over-muscled, fine-jawed hunks?

JRPG's are much like a story for a four year old - Young male teen who's barely a decade out of nappies saving the world from a great evil/God/general loser with a grudge using weapons bigger than themselves, usually, with an expertise which would never happen in real life without decades of training and practice to use such large weapons.

Well, first off, that doesn't sound like a story for a four year old. I'd imagine a four year old wanting to read story books with Sesame Street characters or something.

Secondly, WRPGs are no different; ultimately, it's about a lone hero (Or a band of plucky adventurers) taking on the "dark lord" (And/or THOSE GODDAMN ORKS) and bringing peace to the land. It isn't any more sophisticated, at all.

Finally, that's a grotesque stereotype. FFVII, for example, has far more complex themes than most WRPGs (Which are usually straightforward "good versus evil" adventures), touching on eco-terrorism, the effects of letting unregulated oil (Which "Mako" pretty much represents) companies run rampant, genetic engineering, reincarnation, and whatnot. Certainly not your average "four year old's" themes. FFIX is another great example, which is pretty much all about existential crises--what it means to be alive, self-discovery, would you rather live an incredibly long life with no emotions or a short emotional life, do artificial constructs have "souls"--and there are plenty of other games with, at the very least, mature presentation, such as the Persona series.

Along with the usual love interest of a young girl a little younger or the same age as them who's usually helpless and needs saving from everything ranging from a tiny monster to their own bad hairstyles.

Sorry, but almost all games of all genres do that; it isn't exclusive (Or more common) in JRPGs. Of course, again, it sounds like you're grossly stereotyping the genre; FFV has that pirate lady, FFVI has a strong female protagonist (Two of them, in fact; Terra (Who is more or less the lead character) and Celes), FFVII has strong female love interests (Tifa, who although does look desirable, isn't stupid and can kick anyone's ass, and Aerith, who has a strong personality, although she doesn't dress like it), FFIX (Garnet), FFX (Yuna may dress conservatively, but she's on a sacrificial mission and never cries or complains about it at all), FFXII (Ashe, who is more or less the main character (Vaan doesn't count)), and FFXIII (Lightning, who is a hardened soldier). There's also Valkyria Chronicles and Xenosaga (Although I highly dislike Xenosaga); hell, JRPGs are better at strong female characters than most other genres, so I'm getting the impression that you haven't really played many of them (Or hardly paid attention to them).

will sometimes have a stronger story than 'teen is chosen one'.

Most of the time they don't, however. Most of the time they're "GO SLAY THE DARK LORD AND BRINGETH PEACE TO THE LAND," which isn't any more sophisticated than "YOU'RE THE CHOSEN ONE!!!!!111one11"

Modifié par Batman90, 08 juillet 2010 - 10:59 .

[mopotter]

Jestina wrote...

Final Fantasy went downhill around V or VI. I played some of XII and that was atrocious. That series went totally down the toilet.

Was that the one you got to play dress up.  oh, I'll put on my healer costume and you can be the shooter and she can be the sword fighter.  Wait lets change clothing and I'll be the shooter.  -- yes I actually played it.  

[Batman90]

mopotter wrote...

Jestina wrote...

Final Fantasy went downhill around V or VI. I played some of XII and that was atrocious. That series went totally down the toilet.

Was that the one you got to play dress up.  oh, I'll put on my healer costume and you can be the shooter and she can be the sword fighter.  Wait lets change clothing and I'll be the shooter.  -- yes I actually played it.  

That was Final Fantasy X-2, which never happened. The words "Final Fantasy X-2" shall not be spoken again.

[zahra]

Referring to the OPs first post:



RPG is about three things, immersion, immersion, immersion. Perhaps writers could come up with a much more "amazing" storyline and character dialog if they didn't have to deal with pesky things like player choices, but if I want to be told an amazing story I watch a movie/read a book. Those two mediums serve the purpose better methinks.

[McHoger]

I wonder how big the uproar would have been if they had fixed Hawke as a male character.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Have a peek at TVTropes. There are NO NEW PLOT IDEAS. Not in JRPGs, not in WRPGs.



Tropes, like plot rails, are not a bad thing. JRPGs recycle tropes. WRPGs recycle tropes, Shooters recycle tropes. Even something like Portal, widely hailed as innovative and fresh, recycled tropes. If tropes didn't consistently work as literary devices, we wouldn't recycle them.



The key is trope implementation. BioWare does a consistently good job of redressing its tropes, and implementing them in a sensical manner. Granted, some of their tropes get tired (CARTH SYNDROME I'M LOOKING AT YOU), but they're pretty good at keeping them engaging and fresh. As for whether JRPGs do the same...eh. I think your mileage may vary on that. They don't do it for me at all, but to each their own.