291 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmy]

Principia76 wrote...
Here ya go:

http://social.biowar...ex/1761467&lf=8

That strikes me as a really unfair characterization of what he said.  He wants you to develope relationships based on those people you actually adventure with.  That strikes me as making more sense in the context of a story.

[Principia76]

Valmy wrote...

Gaider loves his characters from what I can tell.  When did he become the whipping boy anyway?  He always struck me as a really good guy.

The minute he started to complain about doing his ****ing job. Look if he doesn't want to write for RPGs then let someone else do it, but don't punish us because you're lazy.

Valmy wrote...

That strikes me as a really unfair characterization of what he said.  He wants you to develope relationships based on those people you actually adventure with.  That strikes me as making more sense in the context of a story.

Yeah, except I can't find anything about them outside of one liners in the forest when we run across a random piece of dog **** because writing is hard!!! 

Modifié par Principia76, 09 juillet 2010 - 08:39 .

[swirlwind]

Err, but that isn't at all what you said he said:

Principia76 wrote...

Didn't Gaider already come out and basically say he hated going the extra mile and just wanted to write a straightforward story without distractions like companion dialogue.

He said writing lots of dialogue is expensive, which I'm sure it is. He also wrote about the way they plan to develop the dialogue system. None of this has anything to do with not wanting to write dialogue or disliking writing gay characters. 

[Nhadalie]

swirlwind wrote...

Err, but that isn't at all what you said he said:

Principia76 wrote...

Didn't Gaider already come out and basically say he hated going the extra mile and just wanted to write a straightforward story without distractions like companion dialogue.

He said writing lots of dialogue is expensive, which I'm sure it is. He also wrote about the way they plan to develop the dialogue system. None of this has anything to do with not wanting to write dialogue or disliking writing gay characters. 

Not only that, but writing a lot of dialogue is very time consuming. That conversation with an NPC that takes you five minutes or so to read can take someone an hour or more to write and script. (I've been building a NWN1 module, and some of the conversations with lots of conditionals and options have taken me.. Oh.. 4 hours to write and script by myself.)


As great as tons of options are, they're very time consuming, expensive, and sometimes difficult to write.(Particularly when a muse is being silent.)


With that said, any well done romance by them is sure to make me happy. Whether it be a straight or same sex romance. Options are great, but if they can't manage to pack it in there and have it well done.. I'd rather not have it at all.

[Principia76]

Nhadalie wrote...

swirlwind wrote...

Err, but that isn't at all what you said he said:

Principia76 wrote...

Didn't Gaider already come out and basically say he hated going the extra mile and just wanted to write a straightforward story without distractions like companion dialogue.

He said writing lots of dialogue is expensive, which I'm sure it is. He also wrote about the way they plan to develop the dialogue system. None of this has anything to do with not wanting to write dialogue or disliking writing gay characters. 

Not only that, but writing a lot of dialogue is very time consuming. That conversation with an NPC that takes you five minutes or so to read can take someone an hour or more to write and script. (I've been building a NWN1 module, and some of the conversations with lots of conditionals and options have taken me.. Oh.. 4 hours to write and script by myself.)


As great as tons of options are, they're very time consuming, expensive, and sometimes difficult to write.(Particularly when a muse is being silent.)


With that said, any well done romance by them is sure to make me happy. Whether it be a straight or same sex romance. Options are great, but if they can't manage to pack it in there and have it well done.. I'd rather not have it at all.

And this is why gaming, especially PC gaming is dying, because people like you don't want real interactivity or be forced to use your imagination, you just want pretty videos with a few QTEs thrown in to make it "interactive".

[swirlwind]

Principia76 wrote...

And this is why gaming, especially PC gaming is dying, because people like you don't want real interactivity or be forced to use your imagination, you just want pretty videos with a few QTEs thrown in to make it "interactive".

Hey, what's with the hostility? I doubt there's anyone here who wouldn't want to see excellent and expansive dialogue in DA2. 

How about we get back on the topic: what's your view on same sex romances? Awesome, huh?

[Nhadalie]

Principia76 wrote...

And this is why gaming, especially PC gaming is dying, because people like you don't want real interactivity or be forced to use your imagination, you just want pretty videos with a few QTEs thrown in to make it "interactive".

And where did you get the idea that either of us said that?

You try building a module from a toolset from scratch by yourself. See how long those dialogues with the tons of choices take you. Especially if you want each choice to be different. Then have fun trying to script those choices by yourself, so that the choices aren't simply forgotten.


I love having tons of choices. That's part of why I'm building the module for NWN1 myself. Because I have a story in my head that I want to tell, with a bunch of characters with their own stories occurring along side it. And I prefer being able to use my imagination and make up stories for my characters. That's part of why I loved DA:O so much.


But assuming that something like this is easy, and doesn't take much time is silly. Just because it only takes you a few minutes to play through a conversation doesn't mean that it takes that same amount of time to build it.


When you have several different writers working on a large scale project like this together with a deadline, it's not that simple. They don't have complete control over what gets put into the game. I'm sure about half of what they write for the games gets thrown out, or edited, or god knows what. The point is making a game is expensive and time consuming. It takes a lot of team work, and it's difficult to appreciate until you're on your own trying to build a game entirely by yourself. Even if there is an engine or toolset to use to simplify things, it still takes a very long time.(For example, I've spent over a month working on my module daily. I have maybe 40% of the prologue done. At the absolute most. And back on topic, I'm putting same sex and straight romances in the module. And it's going to take forever.)

Modifié par Nhadalie, 09 juillet 2010 - 09:00 .

[swirlwind]

Nhadalie wrote...

And back on topic, I'm putting same sex and straight romances in the module. And it's going to take forever.)

And we love you for it

[Valmy]

Principia76 wrote...
And this is why gaming, especially PC gaming is dying

Gaming is dying?  LOL

[Principia76]

swirlwind wrote...

Principia76 wrote...

And this is why gaming, especially PC gaming is dying, because people like you don't want real interactivity or be forced to use your imagination, you just want pretty videos with a few QTEs thrown in to make it "interactive".

Hey, what's with the hostility? I doubt there's anyone here who wouldn't want to see excellent and expansive dialogue in DA2. 

How about we get back on the topic: what's your view on same sex romances? Awesome, huh?

Real ones are yes, but Bioware doesn't put those into their games. It's either lesbian aliens or bisexual elf ****s. Why couldn't I romance Alistair as a male, is it because two male humans somehow is just beyond the pale for Bioware? Maybe when Bioware gets over their 13yo attitude of "Ewww, two dudes kissing" I'll start liking them again instead of merely tolerating them.

Nhadalie wrote...

Principia76 wrote...

And this is why gaming, especially PC gaming is dying, because people like you don't want real interactivity or be forced to use your imagination, you just want pretty videos with a few QTEs thrown in to make it "interactive".

And where did you get the idea that either of us said that?

You try building a module from a toolset from scratch by yourself. See how long those dialogues with the tons of choices take you. Especially if you want each choice to be different. Then have fun trying to script those choices by yourself, so that the choices aren't simply forgotten.


I love having tons of choices. That's part of why I'm building the module for NWN1 myself. Because I have a story in my head that I want to tell, with a bunch of characters with their own stories occurring along side it. And I prefer being able to use my imagination and make up stories for my characters. That's part of why I loved DA:O so much.


But assuming that something like this is easy, and doesn't take much time is silly. Just because it only takes you a few minutes to play through a conversation doesn't mean that it takes that same amount of time to build it.


When you have several different writers working on a large scale project like this together with a deadline, it's not that simple. They don't have complete control over what gets put into the game. I'm sure about half of what they write for the games gets thrown out, or edited, or god knows what. The point is making a game is expensive and time consuming. It takes a lot of team work, and it's difficult to appreciate until you're on your own trying to build a game entirely by yourself. Even if there is an engine or toolset to use to simplify things, it still takes a very long time.(For example, I've spent over a month working on my module daily. I have maybe 40% of the prologue done. At the absolute most. And back on topic, I'm putting same sex and straight romances in the module. And it's going to take forever.)

You're a single amateur working alone, you owe no one anything and are not being paid for your work, Gaider is. If he can't perform the job he was hired to do because it's too hard for him he should quit and let someone else take a shot at it. I'm sure there are people who would be happy to have a job and can write just as well as he can.

Modifié par Principia76, 09 juillet 2010 - 09:09 .

[Nhadalie]

swirlwind wrote...

Nhadalie wrote...

And back on topic, I'm putting same sex and straight romances in the module. And it's going to take forever.)

And we love you for it

And this is what makes it worthwhile.

Seeing how much some people enjoy your hard work.


One of these days, I'm going to actually work up the time to romance Leli or Zev. In between the never ending hours of modding.

[Principia76]

Valmy wrote...

Principia76 wrote...
And this is why gaming, especially PC gaming is dying

Gaming is dying?  LOL

Traditional gaming is, the future is casual games and "interactive cinematic experiences" apparently.

[Valmy]

Principia76 wrote...
Real ones are yes, but Bioware doesn't put those into their games. It's either lesbian aliens or bisexual elf ****s. Why couldn't I romance Alistair as a male, is it because two male humans somehow is just beyond the pale for Bioware? Maybe when Bioware gets over their 13yo attitude of "Ewww, two dudes kissing" I'll start liking them again instead of merely tolerating them.

Hilarious.  There really is no pleasing some people.

Bioware already has a game where two male humans have a romance.  Sorry to break your misplaced rage.

[Principia76]

Valmy wrote...

Principia76 wrote...
Real ones are yes, but Bioware doesn't put those into their games. It's either lesbian aliens or bisexual elf ****s. Why couldn't I romance Alistair as a male, is it because two male humans somehow is just beyond the pale for Bioware? Maybe when Bioware gets over their 13yo attitude of "Ewww, two dudes kissing" I'll start liking them again instead of merely tolerating them.

Hilarious.  There really is no pleasing some people.

Bioware already has a game where two male humans have a romance.  Sorry to break your misplaced rage.

Where? Jade Empire where you have to hack it just to see them kiss?

[Valmy]

Principia76 wrote...
Traditional gaming is, the future is casual games and "interactive cinematic experiences" apparently.

Ok so good and proper and pure gaming that reaches the glorious heights of yesteryear is dying.

But that has been true since the first game was made.

[Valmy]

Principia76 wrote...
Where? Jade Empire where you have to hack it just to see them kiss?

Yep.

It kind of seems to me that even having gay romances insults you unless it is done exactly as you want it.  That is the only way Bioware can prove...something to you...not sure.

[Principia76]

Valmy wrote...

Principia76 wrote...
Where? Jade Empire where you have to hack it just to see them kiss?

Yep.

It kind of seems to me that even having gay romances insults you unless it is done exactly as you want it.  That is the only way Bioware can prove...something to you...not sure.

All I want is equality. If they show heterosexual couples kissing I want to see homosexual couples kissing not cutting away to black because it's icky. 

[Collider]

I didn't really like Zevran as an M/M option, but yea, a lot of gay men probably liked the romance. I don't really want them to repeat the fruity assassin thing again, but having a gay romance in a mainstream game is pretty big. Most developers probably wouldn't dare with that sort of thing.

[Collider]

Principia76 wrote...

Valmy wrote...

Principia76 wrote...
Where? Jade Empire where you have to hack it just to see them kiss?

Yep.

It kind of seems to me that even having gay romances insults you unless it is done exactly as you want it.  That is the only way Bioware can prove...something to you...not sure.

All I want is equality. If they show heterosexual couples kissing I want to see homosexual couples kissing not cutting away to black because it's icky. 

Jade Empire was released several years ago. In Dragon Age, Zevran's gay romance gets the same amount of skin and sex as the other romances do.

[Nhadalie]

Principia76 wrote...

You're a single amateur working alone, you owe no one anything and are not being paid for your work, Gaider is. If he can't perform the job he was hired to do because it's too hard for him he should quit and let someone else take a shot at it. I'm sure there are people who would be happy to have a job and can write just as well as he can.

It's not a matter of performing the job or not if they won't let him make same sex romances, or if they simply don't have the time to add it in. The only reason why I'm doing all of this is because the same sex romances fit the characters and situations, and because this is a hobby for me. Granted, being paid would be a big incentive. But sometimes you can only get inspired by things so easily.(Most of the time, I'm waiting around for the characters to give me some inspiration of how to portray them.)

Writing nonstop and trying to figure out what exactly to say isn't easy. He probably has to edit everything several times before it actually gets into the game. Then people higher up can decide "Nope, it's not staying in the game." and cut it.

When it comes down to it, it's a business. As much as we love the story lines and everything, the people who write them don't have full control over these things. And I'm sure it's very frustrating to see the people higher up saying no about this wonderful dialogue you wrote that shows so much of the NPC's character.

[swirlwind]

Principia76 wrote...

Real ones are yes, but Bioware doesn't put those into their games. It's either lesbian aliens or bisexual elf ****s. Why couldn't I romance Alistair as a male, is it because two male humans somehow is just beyond the pale for Bioware? Maybe when Bioware gets over their 13yo attitude of "Ewww, two dudes kissing" I'll start liking them again instead of merely tolerating them.

Okay, so you didn't like Leliana or Zevran. Fair enough. I think Zev's romance is the best in the game, but that's my opinion. The reason you couldn't romance Alistair with a male PC is because he doesn't swing that way. Not all people do, which is fine by me. However, Leliana and Zevran's romances were just as full and complete for male and female PCs. Don't you at least think that what they gave us in DA:O is a step in the right direction? 

I'd love to see a gruff warrior-type bisexual romance in DA2. Perhaps that's what's in store for us next?

Modifié par swirlwind, 09 juillet 2010 - 09:23 .

[Principia76]

Collider wrote...

I didn't really like Zevran as an M/M option, but yea, a lot of gay men probably liked the romance. I don't really want them to repeat the fruity assassin thing again, but having a gay romance in a mainstream game is pretty big. Most developers probably wouldn't dare with that sort of thing.

Zevran doesn't count, he uses sex as a weapon or as entertainment and is not gay. I want a real romance between two well defined well rounded gay male characters, not bisexual assassins or space lesbians.

swirlwind wrote...
Okay, so you didn't like Leliana or Zevran. Fair enough. I think Zev's romance is the best in the game, but that's my opinion. The reason you couldn't romance Alistair with a male PC is because he doesn't swing that way. Not all people do, which is fine by me. However, Leliana and Zevran's romances were just as full and complete for male and female PCs. Don't you at least think that what they gave us in DA:O is a step in the right direction? 

I'd love to see a gruff warrior-type bisexual romance in DA2. Perhaps that's what's in store for us next?

Who decided that was written in stone? Why couldn't they just have made him romanceable regardless of gender? Would it really cost that much to redub a couple of lines?

vvv He's not a real person! He could be whatever anyone wants him to be! vvv

Modifié par Principia76, 09 juillet 2010 - 09:30 .

[Collider]

Maybe because Alistair is straight and not bisexual?

[Nhadalie]

Principia76 wrote...

Who decided that was written in stone? Why couldn't they just have made him romanceable regardless of gender? Would it really cost that much to redub a couple of lines?

Alistair grew up in the Chantry, where he has probably never heard of  it being possible for two men to be romantically involved.


Sometimes these things just don't fit the character. It's as simple as that. When someone comes up with a character for a game, or the character shoves their way into your brain..(And sometimes they even demand how you handle things regarding them.) You don't necessarily have much choice beyond figuring out what suits who.


For an example, I waffled about doing same sex romances in my module for awhile. I couldn't figure out what guy could have a gay romance. The issue was that Rildur was in my head telling me that he was only interested in girls. While Vanhia was saying she'd be open to any sort of relationship if they treat her right. Eventually, I decided to make a NPC into a companion, because he had great potential for straight and same sex romances. So that solved that issue.(And unfortunately, the 3rd companion I had planned changed gender depending on your PC's gender. So.. That made things a bit more difficult.)

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Collider wrote...

Maybe because Alistair is straight and not bisexual?

Well thats up to the writers and I think the point attempted to be made is why couldn't they choose the 'normal' guy as a bi romance option instead of indulging stereotypes and going with Zevran. Anyway, I'm rather drunk and don't know if I'm explaining what I mean very well.