33 réponses à ce sujet

[MaVel2iCk]

Mass Effect has made it's transition from RPG to action, will we see the same trend along other franchises? I certainly hope not, I had always assumed DA: O was their fantasy RPG baby amidst their more recent and demure releases: a homage to all that makes an RPG an RPG... The hell with what critics say and trying to hit the whole market, someone is always going to be a twitter (as evidenced by this post), but I think Bioware has some principal to stand in regard to their inception of classic RPGs.

I'm a long a time supporter of Bioware, and a piece of me died when they merged with EA. I was happy for the company and for the people who worked hard to gain such a great financial partner, but I'm beginning to fear that the addenda "EA" splash logo is an anterograde scar signaling a change in Bioware's direction... Less cerebral RPG developer and more Hollywood action script spin-off of otherwise great ideas.

I enjoyed Mass Effect 2, and in many ways it was a cleaner experience than ME: 1 but I have a hard time calling it a RPG. The item range was limited and large environments were switched out for concise zoned areas... Decisions had little real bearing on the game as a whole, other than affecting dialogue at present. For the first time I found myself not really caring about how I made my choices in a Bioware game. This title also makes the first Bioware title that I've not felt compelled to replay or make a new character upon completion.

That's all fine, there's a forum for those complaints. I held onto to DA: O as it was an RPG for a RPG player - vast, deep, complex: an entirely player dependent experience. The moment I finished my first DA: O character I started another and went almost entirely through the story again from a totally different origin. I was glad to see a true next gen RPG, even if the graphics weren't stellar (a total non-issue for an RPG of this magnitude).

From what I've read so far the marketing pitch sounds disconcertingly similar to how ME 2 was pitched, with improved combat and "intense action." Action is great, it sells movies and games but it becomes very monotonous and superficial to a point when that becomes your selling folcrum upon which you wedge your developers.

The talk of a single character origin worries me even more, given the light of the current circumstances. What I fear is an increase in linearity such that the replay value is vitiated and the game becomes a castrated RPG; I feel like ME 2 is a shiny catamite to ME 1 on an RPG level, although ME 1 itself skirted on the action genre.

My fear is Bioware and EA sat down to discuss the "don't likes" about Dragon Age, although is was already a successful game. Inevitably the complaints for those who haven't played it enough are "The mechanics are too complex", "the graphics are lackluster", "the game has a high learning curve."  The fix? One storyline, more obvious choices, polished combat mechanics, less looting, and a visual facelift... 

I'm sure it will have a "deep story", but if the story is cut so deep that I can't climb the walls or affect my end then I scarcely consider the character to be anything more than a bowling ball hitting bumpers so that it can knock down the pins +/- a few total.

Modifié par MaVel2iCk, 08 juillet 2010 - 06:45 .

[Ecael]

As I posted before...

The RPG everyone is nostalgic about hasn't existed ever since they introduced:

• Full voice acting with lip-sync
• Realistic graphics with facial expressions and uncanny valley humans
• Immersive cinematic cutscenes
• In-depth romanceable characters/companions (in both personality and looks)
• Console ports.

The writers will always be limited to how much all those listed above will cost (and how much time it will take) for all the other dev teams to produce.

This started to occur since Knights of the Old Republic was released and will continue as long as people expect everything in that list above.

Don't start whining now over what has already been happening in the last 7 years.

Modifié par Ecael, 08 juillet 2010 - 06:48 .

[Valmy]

Mass Effect was always a RPG/Action hybrid.



I do hope they keep the twitchyness out of DA but hey I am pretty good at twitchyness now so if twtichyness if required I shall bring the twitchyness.

[AlanC9]

 I'm not sure that game ever existed, Ecael. Having just replayed BG2 and halfway through ToB., I'm amazed at how inadequate companion interaction is and how little real roleplaying choice exists.

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 juillet 2010 - 06:49 .

[Ecael]

AlanC9 wrote...

 I'm not sure that game ever existed, Ecael. Having just replayed BG2 and halfway through ToB., I'm amazed at how inadequate companion interaction is and how little real roleplaying choice exists.

Baldur's Gate could be much more open-ended (which it was, despite possible character interaction) because very little was actually voiced. Thus, any changes made to the game would only require a writer to change it, rather than a writer, a cinematic animator and a voice actor to change it.

It was mostly just text. Of course, people wish they were back in those days of massive amounts of text despite railing against things like e-mails in Mass Effect 2.

Congratulations to them for ensuring that everything absolutely has to be voiced, thus increasing linearity.

Modifié par Ecael, 08 juillet 2010 - 06:52 .

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Ecael wrote...

As I posted before...

The RPG everyone is nostalgic about hasn't existed ever since they introduced:
[*].

[*]Except Dragon Age WAS that RPG.  Sure it wasn't EXACTLY the same, but it managed to incorporate those modern elements you speak of while retaining the feel of the classic RPG.  

[MaVel2iCk]

I said nothing of nostalgia or anything of "other" RPGs. I'm talking specifically both about Bioware and about Dragon Age and other established franchises.

I found Dragon Age to be the best RPG I've played in a very long time... They incorporated all of the above very well, and I lost no immersion. I don't mine having a main player voiced.

My point is RPG is about making decisions... A sort of "chose your own adventure" type book (I always died in those).

I fail to see how voice acting, realistic graphics, cinematic, and romance have anything to with removing loot systems and more dendritic and leaded choice webs...

What's more is that the company's listen to their playerbase, to sit back and not provide feedback would be a waste... I just fear the Bioware as a whole doesn't have the developing freedom they once had, but that doesn't mean that everything needs to move towards an action model...

To sit back and just say "deal with it, that's the way it is" is as irresponsible as it is lazy, although that must be the mean we are regressing to if games are trending towards a story line that forces the same type of sentiment on its players.

Modifié par MaVel2iCk, 08 juillet 2010 - 06:56 .

[soteria]

Although I enjoyed the origin stories in DA a lot, and I'm sure I'll miss them in DA2, I don't know why people are acting like their absence is part of a trend toward "ME." BG, BG2, NWN, and KoTOR all only had one beginning. The DnD games all had lots of choices of race, which came with the setting, but your background was imagined or largely told by the game writers. The only difference is that you're restricted to playing as a human, which is no different from KoTOR. I generally prefer playing other races, but making this out as some sort of trend toward casualization ignores history.

[Ecael]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Ecael wrote...

As I posted before...

The RPG everyone is nostalgic about hasn't existed ever since they introduced:
[*].

[*]Except Dragon Age WAS that RPG.  Sure it wasn't EXACTLY the same, but it managed to incorporate those modern elements you speak of while retaining the feel of the classic RPG. 

Here we go again with "elements", "roots", "aspects" and now "feel".

Dragon Age was fairly linear - not as much as Mass Effect 1 or Mass Effect 2, but it was. Not that it automatically means that it's not an RPG, but it still makes those points I posted above valid.

[zazei]

Ecael wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

 I'm not sure that game ever existed, Ecael. Having just replayed BG2 and halfway through ToB., I'm amazed at how inadequate companion interaction is and how little real roleplaying choice exists.

Baldur's Gate could be much more open-ended (which it was, despite possible character interaction) because very little was actually voiced. Thus, any changes made to the game would only require a writer to change it, rather than a writer, a cinematic animator and a voice actor to change it.

It was mostly just text. Of course, people wish they were back in those days of massive amounts of text despite railing against things like e-mails in Mass Effect 2.

Congratulations to them for ensuring that everything absolutely has to be voiced, thus increasing linearity.

Those people that liked the old style and ditched the emails didn't do it because of lack of voice acting but because it was a horrible and honestly very weak way to follow up events from the first game. It was just frustrating to play the game and get a email from my characters mother asking why my character didn't even try to contact her now that she was alive and then not being able to do anything about it. You can't even respond to the emails, something that would also only require text.

Beyond that they could be awfully misleading at times. I spend ages running around the citadel looking for that old doctor from the first game on my first playthrough because one of the first emails I got in the game was from her about Garrus and ended with her asking if I could bring him along for a reunion on the citadel when I had time. Of course Bioware didn't allow us to have time or add in any follow up to those suggestions.

[Ecael]

MaVel2iCk wrote...

I said nothing of nostalgia or anything of "other" RPGs. I'm talking specifically both about Bioware and about Dragon Age and other established franchises.

I found Dragon Age to be the best RPG I've played in a very long time... They incorporated all of the above very well, and I lost no immersion. I don't mine having a main player voiced.

Since you're talking about immersion - how much exploration was in Dragon Age? How many loading screens were there? Forced battles while traveling?

My point is RPG is about making decisions... A sort of "chose your own adventure" type book (I always died in those).

I fail to see how voice acting, realistic graphics, cinematic, and romance have anything to with removing loot systems and more dendritic and leaded choice webs...

The only major decisions in Dragon Age consisted of "Should I help this person, or should I kill them?" Templars/Mages, Elves/Werewolves, Golems/Dwarves only affected what little cutscene you saw at the end and what units you could summon at the boss. Voice acting, graphics and cinematics affect how linear the game can be and are the limiting factors to making decisions and facing consequences.

Also, did the Dragon Age 2 website say they were going to remove loot systems?

What's more is that the company's listen to their playerbase, to sit back and not provide feedback would be a waste... I just fear the Bioware as a whole doesn't have the developing freedom they once had, but that doesn't mean that everything needs to move towards an action model...

To sit back and just say "deal with it, that's the way it is" is as irresponsible as it is lazy, although that must be the mean we are regressing to if games are trending towards a story line that forces the same type of sentiment on its players.

To sit back and just say that Dragon Age and Mass Effect wasn't already trending towards the action-adventure mold is also lazy.

People keep asking for those games again, and that's exactly what they're getting. Try asking for Baldur's Gate instead.

Modifié par Ecael, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:03 .

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Ecael wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Ecael wrote...

As I posted before...

The RPG everyone is nostalgic about hasn't existed ever since they introduced:
[*].

[*]Except Dragon Age WAS that RPG.  Sure it wasn't EXACTLY the same, but it managed to incorporate those modern elements you speak of while retaining the feel of the classic RPG. 

Here we go again with "elements", "roots", "aspects" and now "feel".

Dragon Age was fairly linear - not as much as Mass Effect 1 or Mass Effect 2, but it was. Not that it automatically means that it's not an RPG, but it still makes those points I posted above valid.

[*]I think you're confusing "How people talk about classic RPG's being" and "What people actually liked about classic RPG's".  Dragon Age's main story was relatively linear yes, but you could roleplay within that narrative.  You could make your character, define their personality and act out that character while following the story.  You can't do this in Mass Effect: You have a choice of being Paragon or Renegade.  Any subtler form of role playing is lost completely because of limited response options. (You can't control the way shepard says something, atleast in Dragon Age I can change the tone in my head to fit the character)

[Jestina]

True RPG's don't really exist anymore. Every year it becomes harder and harder to find them.

[MaVel2iCk]

soteria wrote...

Although I enjoyed the origin stories in DA a lot, and I'm sure I'll miss them in DA2, I don't know why people are acting like their absence is part of a trend toward "ME." BG, BG2, NWN, and KoTOR all only had one beginning. The DnD games all had lots of choices of race, which came with the setting, but your background was imagined or largely told by the game writers. The only difference is that you're restricted to playing as a human, which is no different from KoTOR. I generally prefer playing other races, but making this out as some sort of trend toward casualization ignores history.

I agree with you, and were that my only concern I wouldn't have made this post. It's more the way I read the marketing release on the direction of the game, and it sounded similar enough to how they spun ME:2 that it made me question the direction they are taking with this game. As I had said, I felt they would at least hold onto this franchise as their bread and butter RPG that their long time supporters love. This is the type of game that Bioware was built on, and the type of player that fed the first veins into the heart of a great RPG developer.

Bioware has added many of the aforementioned features above (main voice acting,etc), whilst successfully retaining that essence of an RPG. I don't think there isn't room for innovation, and in fact I had hoped Bioware would continue to lead the RPG into the future without changing the genre at it's foundation or otherwise trending towards an already established genre. 

I don't want everything to be the same, and I certainly don't want a DA: O with just a facelift. I just don't want to see the game simplified and the story controlled so much that it's a shell of an RPG more akin to a squad based action game.

Modifié par MaVel2iCk, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:08 .

[allothernamesweretaken]

Ecael wrote...

MaVel2iCk wrote...

I said nothing of nostalgia or anything of "other" RPGs. I'm talking specifically both about Bioware and about Dragon Age and other established franchises.

I found Dragon Age to be the best RPG I've played in a very long time... They incorporated all of the above very well, and I lost no immersion. I don't mine having a main player voiced.

Since you're talking about immersion - how much exploration was in Dragon Age? How many loading screens were there? Forced battles while traveling?

My point is RPG is about making decisions... A sort of "chose your own adventure" type book (I always died in those).

I fail to see how voice acting, realistic graphics, cinematic, and romance have anything to with removing loot systems and more dendritic and leaded choice webs...

The only major decisions in Dragon Age consisted of "Should I help this person, or should I kill them?" Templars/Mages, Elves/Werewolves, Golems/Dwarves only affected what little cutscene you saw at the end and what units you could summon at the boss. Voice acting, graphics and cinematics affect how linear the game can be and are the limiting factors to making decisions and facing consequences.

Also, did the Dragon Age 2 website say they were going to remove loot systems?

What's more is that the company's listen to their playerbase, to sit back and not provide feedback would be a waste... I just fear the Bioware as a whole doesn't have the developing freedom they once had, but that doesn't mean that everything needs to move towards an action model...

To sit back and just say "deal with it, that's the way it is" is as irresponsible as it is lazy, although that must be the mean we are regressing to if games are trending towards a story line that forces the same type of sentiment on its players.

To sit back and just say that Dragon Age and Mass Effect wasn't already trending towards the action-adventure mold is also lazy.

People keep asking for those games again, and that's exactly what they're getting. Try asking for Baldur's Gate instead.

So, what you're saying is "The game wasn't perfect, so why do you want more like it?"

[Ecael]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

I think you're confusing "How people talk about classic RPG's being" and "What people actually liked about classic RPG's".  Dragon Age's main story was relatively linear yes, but you could roleplay within that narrative.  You could make your character, define their personality and act out that character while following the story.  You can't do this in Mass Effect: You have a choice of being Paragon or Renegade.  Any subtler form of role playing is lost completely because of limited response options. (You can't control the way shepard says something, atleast in Dragon Age I can change the tone in my head to fit the character)

Limited response options because the main character in Mass Effect is voiced.

The "feel" of a classic RPG is much better when the player as well as every other character is unvoiced (letting writers produce as much as their imagination allows them). Dragon Age was a half-and-half in regards to voicing characters. Sometimes you could say two different things and get the same exact voiced response from an NPC. So while you're playing your role, they certainly aren't playing theirs to the fullest.

[zazei]

Jestina wrote...

True RPG's don't really exist anymore. Every year it becomes harder and harder to find them.

This is sadly how I feel more or less.
If Mass effect 3 doesn't at least fix some of the problems many of us had with that game and Dragon Age 2 turns down the same road as ME2 went I think I will more or less give up on Bioware. Think they are reaching a point where there games really are not that enjoyable anymore for me. Still have faith in Obsidian and that wierd company that made the Witcher if they ever decide to let us play something more then a macho witcher guy though. ^^

[Vicious]

[quote] Don't start whining now over what has already been happening in the last 7 years. [/quote\\



Won the thread.

[ReinaHW]

What I found annoying with Mass Effect 2 was the dumb idea to have tiny text, for a game which has a lot of it.

I don't like being forced to buy an HD TV just so I can read the mission briefings and codex, I've not been able to complete ME2 since I'm worried about making mistakes since I can't read the highly tiny text, whoever had that idea should have been dragged out and battered to death with kippers.



I hope Bioware's RPG's won't turn into dumbed down, Hollywood like blockbusters made for the small of intellect and short of attention.

There's far too much of that with gaming as it is.

[UberDuber]

Why Bioware wtf did we do that you would ruin Dragon Age like this???

[Ecael]

allothernamesweretaken wrote...

So, what you're saying is "The game wasn't perfect, so why do you want more like it?"

I'm saying to be careful what you wish for.

People tell BioWare that they loved the characters in a specific game, so BioWare adds even more characters in the next game - but for a lot of people, not their favorite character from the last.

BioWare probably thought it was their character development that was being praised, and not the actual characters themselves. They have no loyalty to the characters that they write, but they do have the ability to make more.

Modifié par Ecael, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:12 .

[Lady Grace]

Bioware how could you...you've broken my heart. Without Alistair I can't go on. I would have paid anything to fight be my king's side once again. Now, there is no point

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Ecael wrote...



The only major decisions in Dragon Age consisted of "Should I help this person, or should I kill them?" Templars/Mages, Elves/Werewolves, Golems/Dwarves only affected what little cutscene you saw at the end and what units you could summon at the boss. Voice acting, graphics and cinematics affect how linear the game can be and are the limiting factors to making decisions and facing consequences.

Well gosh when you simplify the decisions like that then sure, but they were far more complex than that.



Do you risk the mages being corrupted and spreading evil influences or do you start anew? Do you use an evil form of magic to save the life of an idiot child or do you just kill him to stop the demon? Do you save the anvil, knowing that it may be abused by whoever you choose as king when it could allow the Dwarves to retake the Deep Roads and the entire Dwarven empire in addition to allowing you to combat the blight more effectively? Do the children of murderers and rapist deserve to suffer the curse of the werewolf because of their ancestor's sins? When they've attacked and killed themselves in retaliation?



The decisions are more complex when you add your own characters perspective. Maybe a Dalish Elf character only wishes to help his kind and doesn't care about the werewolf suffering, maybe a Dwarf character believes in Branka's goal of retaking the Deep Roads even if it means sacrificing many Orzammar lives. You cannot do this in most games.





For example in Mass Effect 1 you have the decision to spare or kill the rachni. The decision between the idealist and the pragmatist. You can't roleplay within this decision? Say you're playing a character who believes the rachni genuinely wish to start anew but can't take the risk? The second you pick the "kill rachni option" your Shepard is now screaming "YOU DESERVE TO DIE ALIEN SCUM" even when their reason for killing the rachni wasn't some xenophobic rage.



So yes while Dragon Age is ultimately linear, it allows you to roleplay. This is why people don't want to see race/origins removed and us given a character name and voiced dialogue: it takes away our ability to roleplay the characters we want, and forces us to make Good/Evil decisions while playing as a defined character.

[Ecael]

zazei wrote...

Jestina wrote...

True RPG's don't really exist anymore. Every year it becomes harder and harder to find them.

This is sadly how I feel more or less.
If Mass effect 3 doesn't at least fix some of the problems many of us had with that game and Dragon Age 2 turns down the same road as ME2 went I think I will more or less give up on Bioware. Think they are reaching a point where there games really are not that enjoyable anymore for me. Still have faith in Obsidian and that wierd company that made the Witcher if they ever decide to let us play something more then a macho witcher guy though. ^^

Obsidian tried releasing an action RPG (Alpha Protocol) and it's barely keeping up with the sales of Dragon Age: Awakening (which is 10% of Dragon Age's Origins sales).

So while you can give up on BioWare, there aren't many alternatives left.

[MaVel2iCk]

Ecael wrote...

MaVel2iCk wrote...

I said nothing of nostalgia or anything of "other" RPGs. I'm talking specifically both about Bioware and about Dragon Age and other established franchises.

I found Dragon Age to be the best RPG I've played in a very long time... They incorporated all of the above very well, and I lost no immersion. I don't mine having a main player voiced.

Since you're talking about immersion - how much exploration was in Dragon Age? How many loading screens were there? Forced battles while traveling?

My point is RPG is about making decisions... A sort of "chose your own adventure" type book (I always died in those).

I fail to see how voice acting, realistic graphics, cinematic, and romance have anything to with removing loot systems and more dendritic and leaded choice webs...

The only major decisions in Dragon Age consisted of "Should I help this person, or should I kill them?" Templars/Mages, Elves/Werewolves, Golems/Dwarves only affected what little cutscene you saw at the end and what units you could summon at the boss. Voice acting, graphics and cinematics affect how linear the game can be and are the limiting factors to making decisions and facing consequences.

Also, did the Dragon Age 2 website say they were going to remove loot systems?

What's more is that the company's listen to their playerbase, to sit back and not provide feedback would be a waste... I just fear the Bioware as a whole doesn't have the developing freedom they once had, but that doesn't mean that everything needs to move towards an action model...

To sit back and just say "deal with it, that's the way it is" is as irresponsible as it is lazy, although that must be the mean we are regressing to if games are trending towards a story line that forces the same type of sentiment on its players.

To sit back and just say that Dragon Age and Mass Effect wasn't already trending towards the action-adventure mold is also lazy.

People keep asking for those games again, and that's exactly what they're getting. Try asking for Baldur's Gate instead.

Now you're the one talking about nostalgia... Which is already discussed, which is why I'm focusing on this game in particular as a starting point. Regardless of how Dragon Age compares to a game that's a decade old in choice, I want to at least preserve what it had in DA: O, if not foment and encourage that direction...

You're arguing with me but you obviously share my desire for increased complexity, although or means and opinions of the details may not be in total agreement. I'd prefer to use DA: O as an example of a great star to taking a step in the right direction, as nothing goes completely from one side to another in one release. I want them to realize their are players who truly enjoyed the direction of DA: O enough to sit here and spend my time voicing my thoughts on their work in recent context.

Perhaps part of the problem is hardcore RPGers argue so much amongst themselves and theory that they feel above posts like this that simply lay it out without a total scientific review and chronology of every point... Where as someone who was annoyed by the combat system will just stop by and say "the combat was hard and confusing to me." It's simply and easy to understand, something that can be fixed, but the cost of fixing it needs to be discussed and players on both sides of the fence polled.

Modifié par MaVel2iCk, 08 juillet 2010 - 07:18 .