436 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

Dacen315 wrote...
The dreaded "Mass Effect Wheel" - While this worked great in Mass Effect, doesn't necessarily mean that it will work as well in Dragon Age. 

Why won't they do it better? After all the DA writers are better than the ME writers.

I love how people want the freedom to say things, and then they argue for a dialogue system that puts words into their mouths.

[thegoldfinch]

I can't say I understand some of these complaints about the little wheel.

The dialogue in Bioware games is not 'yours', never was. All of it was written beforehand. Your character is still reading what the devs want them to read, no matter if the lists of dialogue options are in a circle or in a straight line.

Yes, you can take a dialogue option and interpret it to be sarcastic - but that doesn't mean the NPC you're talking to is going to pick up on the fact that you, personally, want it to be sarcastic. The implication of the statement is pre-determined by the developer, and it becomes a game of hunting down the "sugar pie" options from the "meany pants" options so you can gain influence to get your stat bonuses, rather than you role playing a character with a thousand different layers like you could do with pen and paper games. Computers are restrictive in that way.

Adding icons to show the intent nullifies that game of hunting down the intention of statements completely. I quite like it. The dialogue options being formed in a little circle doesn't change anything. It really doesn't.

And it's even better than what Mass Effect had, because sometimes I would choose a simple "No", and Shepshep would start roid raging and throw a jackhammer into someone's frontal lobe. Now at least we clearly know the dev's intention and can avoid situations like that all together.

What I hope for are dialogue options to be purposely, I dunno, smarmy and teasing and rude, instead of just purely SUPER GOOD and SUPER MEAN. Alpha Protocol did have some good ideas and that was basically one of them, as much of a mess as that game was.

Modifié par pixieface, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:01 .

[Malanek]

pixieface wrote...
I can't say I understand some of these complaints about the little wheel.

pixieface wrote...
And it's even better than what Mass Effect had, because sometimes I would choose a simple "No", and Shepshep would start roid raging and throw a jackhammer into someone's frontal lobe. Now at least we clearly know the dev's intention and can avoid situations like that all together.

See, you do understand these complaints. We are comparing it to ME because that's the only thing we can compare it to. I understand it was their "intention" to make the blurbs less ambiguios in ME2. There was still plenty of ambiguity. This isn't going to stop me buying the game. I like the other (few) things I have heard so far. But IMO it is a legitimate concern and a lot of people have feel the same way.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

sage_viper wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

"fight like a spartan" could mean anything from God of War nonsensical Air Combo Combat to 300's shirtless Bro Dawg love fest silly gore combat.

Maybe it's a Halo reference.  Maybe we're getting vehicle combat! 

fereldens are idiots and prefer to use dogs rather than cavalry. No wonder they got assraped by Orlais.

we might get griffon mounts though?

Um, Ferelden destroyed Orlais with horse mounted knights. In fact the cavalry played a pretty important part in lots of battles, including one that split the Orlais force in half and saving the entire Rebel Army.

Also, Griffons are forever gone (which I still don't entirely understand why...) and only Grey Wardens rode them.

I was sarcastically suggesting that maybe they were going to give us a warhog or something and let us just run the darkspawn over.  Hadn't thought about giving us horses, but that does sound like a good idea, now that I think about it...  

[thegoldfinch]

Oh, also. I know some people won't agree with me on this, but the Paragon/Renegade interrupts in ME2 were more fun than they should ever have been allowed to be and I want moar. I hope there is something like that here. I know I would thoroughly enjoy myself if I could renegade punt someone out of a castle. With my beard.

Malanek999 wrote...

pixieface wrote...
I can't say I understand some of these complaints about the little wheel.

pixieface wrote...
And it's even better than what Mass Effect had, because sometimes I would choose a simple "No", and Shepshep would start roid raging and throw a jackhammer into someone's frontal lobe. Now at least we clearly know the dev's intention and can avoid situations like that all together.

See, you do understand these complaints. We are comparing it to ME because that's the only thing we can compare it to. I understand it was their "intention" to make the blurbs less ambiguios in ME2. There was still plenty of ambiguity. This isn't going to stop me buying the game. I like the other (few) things I have heard so far. But IMO it is a legitimate concern and a lot of people have feel the same way.

But... The intention of the dialogue choice will be shown right there for you in the center of the circle, as a little icon.

I don't even - what?

There's no ambiguity with the inclusion of those icons. They wanted to make it clear so you don't roid rage on accident. That's why I don't understand why it's an issue when we've been told that.

You are of course allowed to be concerned about this super neat franchise and I don't mean to be a hater gater, but the logic of the complaint escapes me.

Modifié par pixieface, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:19 .

[Malanek]

pixieface wrote...

Oh, also. I know some people won't agree with me on this, but the Paragon/Renegade interrupts in ME2 were more fun than they should ever have been allowed to be and I want moar. I hope there is something like that here. I know I would thoroughly enjoy myself if I could renegade punt someone out of a building. With my beard.

Malanek999 wrote...

pixieface wrote...
I can't say I understand some of these complaints about the little wheel.

pixieface wrote...
And it's even better than what Mass Effect had, because sometimes I would choose a simple "No", and Shepshep would start roid raging and throw a jackhammer into someone's frontal lobe. Now at least we clearly know the dev's intention and can avoid situations like that all together.

See, you do understand these complaints. We are comparing it to ME because that's the only thing we can compare it to. I understand it was their "intention" to make the blurbs less ambiguios in ME2. There was still plenty of ambiguity. This isn't going to stop me buying the game. I like the other (few) things I have heard so far. But IMO it is a legitimate concern and a lot of people have feel the same way.

But... The intention of the dialogue choice will be shown right there for you in the center of the circle, as a little icon.

I don't even - what?

There's no ambiguity with the inclusion of those icons. They wanted to make it clear so you don't roid rage on accident. That's why I don't understand why it's an issue when we've been told that.

You are of course allowed to be concerned about this super neat franchise and I don't mean to be a hater gater, but the logic of the complaint escapes me.

There is still ambiguity. If you say "No" with say the angry emotion what does that mean? I would not expect Hawke to throw a jackhammer in someones face. And allthough the emotion colours are a decent idea I still don't think they are going to get around the fundamental problem. 20 words, cannot be compressed to 4 words and maintain the same meaning.

[thegoldfinch]

Y'know, I thought about this, but I don't actually recall a moment in DA:O where the PC said something 20 words or over. There were some touching little dialogue moments, like where my Warden confessed some insecurities about being a Grey Warden to Wynne... but still, those options weren't over, I don't know, maybe six words? It's still all essentially quick paraphrasing. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't think I am.

And just a personal opinion here, but the writers of Dragon Age are far more sophisticated and talented than those of the Mass Effect series. Both are good, sure, but the Dragon Age team has proven to me just how utterly competent they are at understanding character and story. If they are actively working to avoid ambiguity by adding those intention icons, then I have reason to believe that they will not make that whole effort a moot point by making the dialogue itself questionable. ... Not that I have any fact or evidence to base this one, but it's just an educated guess from a fan who is probably too loyal for her own good.

[tbsking]

pixieface wrote...

Y'know, I thought about this, but I don't actually recall a moment in DA:O where the PC said something 20 words or over. There were some touching little dialogue moments, like where my Warden confessed some insecurities about being a Grey Warden to Wynne... but still, those options weren't over, I don't know, maybe six words? It's still all essentially quick paraphrasing. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't think I am.
And just a personal opinion here, but the writers of Dragon Age are far more sophisticated and talented than those of the Mass Effect series. Both are good, sure, but the Dragon Age team has proven to me just how utterly competent they are at understanding character and story. If they are actively working to avoid ambiguity by adding those intention icons, then I have reason to believe that they will not make that whole effort a moot point by making the dialogue itself questionable. ... Not that I have any fact or evidence to base this one, but it's just an educated guess from a fan who is probably too loyal for her own good.

But any given dialogue option was the complete dialogue option. It wasn't truncated, nor was there any indication the the Warden said anything other than what was written. Besides, a silent protagonist adds more possiblities for roleplaying.

[Malanek]

pixieface wrote...

Y'know, I thought about this, but I don't actually recall a moment in DA:O where the PC said something 20 words or over.

I doubt there was. That could be another thing they change because the player is no longer forced to read all the options. There are quite a few times in ME and ME2 where Shepard launches into a bit of a speech. Same in the The Witcher with Geralt. It can be good entertainment and is a strength of the system. So long as the player meant it.

[thegoldfinch]

Malanek999 wrote...
I doubt there was. That could be another thing they change because the player is no longer forced to read all the options. There are quite a few times in ME and ME2 where Shepard launches into a bit of a speech. Same in the The Witcher with Geralt. It can be good entertainment and is a strength of the system. So long as the player meant it.

I'm rather excited for that, actually! I'm such a sucker for ballsy, heroic speeches, and quick back and forth exchanges are now possible (yay) where they just weren't before. I feel like it opens up this door for more snappy, fluid banter and teasing between companions now. I feel the lulz, my friend, they are coming for us.

I suppose I just have faith that the team will make intentions clear. More important than that, however, is that the writing is so much stronger in the DA universe than it is in the ME one. While ME was Hollywood fun, it wasn't... smart. I don't know many people who would deny that much. The dialogue was hokey and laughable and just plain unbelievable sometimes. Sheperd was also a very defined, gruff sort of get-the-job-done dude/tte. But from what I hear, Hawke can be many people and many personalities. This gives me a lot of hope that DA2 won't be like the goofy sausage fest that ME2 came off as and therefore the dialogue options won't fail hard.

[mrmike_1949]

pixieface wrote...

Y'know, I thought about this, but I don't actually recall a moment in DA:O where the PC said something 20 words or over. There were some touching little dialogue moments, like where my Warden confessed some insecurities about being a Grey Warden to Wynne... but still, those options weren't over, I don't know, maybe six words? It's still all essentially quick paraphrasing. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't think I am.
And just a personal opinion here, but the writers of Dragon Age are far more sophisticated and talented than those of the Mass Effect series. Both are good, sure, but the Dragon Age team has proven to me just how utterly competent they are at understanding character and story. If they are actively working to avoid ambiguity by adding those intention icons, then I have reason to believe that they will not make that whole effort a moot point by making the dialogue itself questionable. ... Not that I have any fact or evidence to base this one, but it's just an educated guess from a fan who is probably too loyal for her own good.

Mass Effect 1 dialogs contained a LOT more humor than DA:O did, there were a lot of little "one-liners" and sarcastic comments that brought the characters to life. Yeah, they were less serious (pretentious) than the DA:O characters, but still interesting and fun

[Bryy_Miller]

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Dacen315 wrote...
The dreaded "Mass Effect Wheel" - While this worked great in Mass Effect, doesn't necessarily mean that it will work as well in Dragon Age. 

Why won't they do it better? After all the DA writers are better than the ME writers.

I love how people want the freedom to say things, and then they argue for a dialogue system that puts words into their mouths.

The dialog will put words into the PC's mouth no matter what, be it silent or spoken. Not sure what you're driving at.

That's my point.

[tbsking]

But it's far easier to roleplay a silent protagonist. A voiced
protagonist will inevitably have a certain personality to him, and the
dialogue options will inevitably sway to the extremes of the nice/mean
spectrum. While The dialogue system of DAO might force words into my
mouth, I can interpret the manner in which my character says it. A
voiced protagonist will say it their way every single time.

Modifié par tbsking, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:34 .

[Bryy_Miller]

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I have 3 concerns:

1. Fast travel by map, with random enemy encounters and dreadfully long load times. Hated this in the first game. If they bring it back, I will be disappoint. 

This will most likely be back. Dragon Age was never meant to be an open world sandbox game.

I think it's possible to make a hybrid - anything that opens up the gameplay and freedom for the player. Ahh well, I suppose I'm asking for a different type of game, aren't I?

You are right. It will probably be map time and crossed swords whenever I want to go anywhere. 

Well, if they did this, they would either need to change the leveling system completely or just do away with it.

Why? what does game travel have to do with leveling your character?

The Witcher was a hybrid. So was Divinity 2. Both had solid leveling mechanics. You will have to elaborate, I think.

I'm not familiar with either of those games.

[S8G Shadow]

I'm mad at what I'm hearing, quote me if I'm wrong but I heard that they are "dumbing down" the combat system, taking "some" if not all RPG elements out of Dragon Age 2 and almost nothing you did in DA:O matters in Dragon Age 2 except major key events. Kinda reminds me of Mass Effect 2 (Good Story), still kinda mad that they made it a shooter rpg. On top of that, no other races? Just human? I would think it would make the game boring faster after you beat the game because in DA:O you could play some other race and beat that to keep you hooked on it. I dont know anymore, I know EA had some role in it. Before, Bioware could take there time and put that extra effort into making it a good game. Now that EA bought them I know they are rushing them thinking if its got bioware on it then it's going to sell anyway. I wish they would keep all the good RPG games RPG. If this is how they make they're game I dont think I'm gunna rush for it :/

[S8G Shadow]

tbsking wrote...



But it's far easier to roleplay a silent protagonist. A voiced
protagonist will inevitably have a certain personality to him, and the
dialogue options will inevitably sway to the extremes of the nice/mean
spectrum. While The dialogue system of DAO might force words into my
mouth, I can interpret the manner in which my character says it. A
voiced protagonist will say it their way every single time.

I agree

[Bryy_Miller]

No, how does it work in those games. You would either need to make the level cap very, very high, or EXP comes extremely slowly.

[tbsking]

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I have 3 concerns:

1. Fast travel by map, with random enemy encounters and dreadfully long load times. Hated this in the first game. If they bring it back, I will be disappoint. 

This will most likely be back. Dragon Age was never meant to be an open world sandbox game.

I think it's possible to make a hybrid - anything that opens up the gameplay and freedom for the player. Ahh well, I suppose I'm asking for a different type of game, aren't I?

You are right. It will probably be map time and crossed swords whenever I want to go anywhere. 

Well, if they did this, they would either need to change the leveling system completely or just do away with it.

Why? what does game travel have to do with leveling your character?

The Witcher was a hybrid. So was Divinity 2. Both had solid leveling mechanics. You will have to elaborate, I think.

I'm not familiar with either of those games.

That fact still doesn't explain why game travel changes the leveling system. I am puzzled. 

There were no repeating random encounters and enemies didn't respawn so there's set amount of xp in the game. If it were to  be freer they would have to change it.

[SirOccam]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Dacen315 wrote...
The dreaded "Mass Effect Wheel" - While this worked great in Mass Effect, doesn't necessarily mean that it will work as well in Dragon Age. 

Why won't they do it better? After all the DA writers are better than the ME writers.

I love how people want the freedom to say things, and then they argue for a dialogue system that puts words into their mouths.

The dialog will put words into the PC's mouth no matter what, be it silent or spoken. Not sure what you're driving at.

That's my point.

I think what slimgrin is saying is that whether it's this new dialogue wheel or the dialogue list that DA:O had, you're always having words put into your character's mouth. It's not like they let you type your own lines in DA:O. So whether it's arranged in a straight line and with no sound or in a circle with sound, the concept is the same: the writers decide what you can and can't say and how the NPCs react. It's only the presentation that's changing, not the content.

[Bryy_Miller]

That's what I'm saying, too.

[Elhanan]

My greatest anxiety is that DA2 will become a MMO, and I will be forced to play on the Whine List server.... *shakes head in wonder*