924 réponses à ce sujet

[mordy_was_here]

elearon1 wrote...

Because it makes for an interesting story and one you don't see much. I think you are seriously obsessing on the wrong thing here.

Right.

Anyways, I understand what you're saying, at least. Complication can drive a story, make it more interesting, et cetera.

[Krytheos]

Mel213 wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

Because it makes for an interesting story and one you don't see much. I think you are seriously obsessing on the wrong thing here.

Right.

Anyways, I understand what you're saying, at least. Complication can drive a story, make it more interesting, et cetera.

To be fair, Dragon Age is tarted as a Dark Fantasy. What he's implying is the dark nature that it could become in time; controversial? Very. But the tone of Dragon Age: O was very much already this, just without EXPLICIT mentions of such things.

The City Elf Origin, for instance; there was a good bit of dark themes there, and even mention of something a LOT of people cannot stand, and is quite taboo normally, especially in games. The only things that we haven't seen that are very much dark, in some things:

Incest, which isn't too dark, but is still disturbing, so this may not ever make it into the game at all, which I wouldn't mind one way or the other, as long as it is tastefully done.
Stalker -- there are harmless one's out there, but even more less harmless one's; if implemented and done -well- and tastefully so as to not appear overtly weird; it was done in the Magi origin with Cullen. It is not-so-subtly hinted that he was always 'heavily' in love with the Female Mage, but frustrated ultimately due to his job as a Templar. Again, tastefully done, could be implemented well.

Jealous lover/adultery -- tastefully done and implemented well, another dark theme that could make for an overall excellent story, especially if someone you romanced caused another to become jealous towards that one, or a jealous romance interest that becomes scary when he/she thinks the relationship he/she has with you may be going on the rocks/suspects you have an affair with someone else. This was almost done in DA: O, since you -could- cheat on Leliana. T'was heartbreaking, too, I recall.

As for the abusive thing; I don't see why it couldn't happen to the PC, but if BioWare does take this route, they'd have to be EXTREMELY cautious about it; however an NPC suffering this they would still have to be cautious, but it would still make for something good, done tastefully (I know I'm using that word too much), and done right, and not made offensive.

This is a dark fantasy; expect a lot of dark themes to be present in the future, is all I'm saying. Trust me when I say that, because a story inspired by George R.R. Martin's A song of Ice and Fire is more than likely going to be fairly dark; perhaps not -as- dark but...still, gritty, dark. 

Edit: This just came to mind; romancing Alistair and making him King. If you're an Elf, there's literally, like, two or three happy endings with him. Only that many; the rest are all pretty damn harsh.

Modifié par Krytheos, 15 juillet 2010 - 01:03 .

[mopotter]

elearon1 wrote...

How about an abusive relationship? It starts off nice enough but the person gets more and more abusive until your other companions start commenting on it and you have to try and get away.

Or a Stalker ... well, I hear Leliana was something of a stalker but since I always romanced her I never noticed. (and the few times I tried romancing someone else I felt so bad about it I dumbed them for her)

The point being there are many more complicated relationship dynamics than "lets talk nice til we fall in love"

Only if I can kill them.  I do hope your being sarcastic.

[elearon1]

>>To be fair, Dragon Age is tarted as a Dark Fantasy. What he's implying is the dark nature that it could become in time; controversial? Very.<<



I'm glad *somebody* gets it. I suspect the vast majority of players on these forums don't have what it takes to play a dark game. (sure these aren't the only ways a game can be dark, but they are sure some of them)

[mopotter]

kaispan wrote...

As far as DA2 goes I would enjoy more complicated tragic horrible endings and emotional confrontations because that really brings the game to life to me, in a punch-you-in-the-gut from the computer screen kind of way.  I had a completely visceral reaction to Alistair's breakup speech (first playthrough I put him on the throne, unhardened ) and right when he started talking I just had this horrible sinking feeling and I could tell what he was going to say-- literally felt like I had just gotten dumped, I was so surprised. And I mean, that sucked... but damn was it cool that it really hit me. I wasn't expecting it at all.

I know that's not to everyone's taste, but I find anything that can affect me that strongly enough to leave me feeling something after (good book/movie/etc) to be infinitely more meaningful than a happily-ever-after.

I want many endings, and I wouldn't mind one that is tragic or just depressing but I also want one that ends with my LI and I riding off into the sunset to do whatever my imagination comes up with, or if we are in our 50's at the end - riding off to the little cottage to spend our last years sitting on the porch shooting at the neighborhood kids ruining our yard.  

I figure they usually have more than one option for the ending, (DA had at least 4 that I can think of off the top of my head).  I don't know if ME spoilers count in a DA discussion, but I'll just say that in ME I had a cry feast in a couple of games because the choice was there and I took it with my love interest after talking with them about the future. The first time it happened it took me 2 or 3 minuets to decide what to do.   I don't have a problem with sad or "unhappy" endings, I just don't want that to be the only ending.    

[Krytheos]

elearon1 wrote...

>>To be fair, Dragon Age is tarted as a Dark Fantasy. What he's implying is the dark nature that it could become in time; controversial? Very.

I'm glad *somebody* gets it. I suspect the vast majority of players on these forums don't have what it takes to play a dark game. (sure these aren't the only ways a game can be dark, but they are sure some of them)

Honestly, as long as the game doesn't force you into situations that are EXTREMELY uncomfortable, and you can AVOID them by all means, then I would be fine with an extremely dark game, though I doubt many would like it to be as dark as A Song of Ice and Fire.

[andar91]

I wonder if we'll be able to get married (since the game spans 10 years).

[SOLID_EVEREST]

I would rather they make a romance that directly affects the plot akin to Morrigan's romance. I see no point in the Leliana, Zevran, and Alistair romance other than them being there...

[Ibaru88]

I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet seeing as I'm only on page 2, but what if they added an interface feature that would make romances more optional? Like say, a small check box in a romancable character's character screen that says "romance" or something, that would have to be checked in order for you to have access to the dialogue options that lead to a romance?... Just a thought...

[kaispan]

mopotter wrote...

I don't know if ME spoilers count in a DA discussion, but I'll just say that in ME I had a cry feast in a couple of games because the choice was there and I took it with my love interest after talking with them about the future. The first time it happened it took me 2 or 3 minuets to decide what to do.   I don't have a problem with sad or "unhappy" endings, I just don't want that to be the only ending.    

Yes I know the part you are talking about in ME! I did the same thing; it's a good thing the super dramatic scene froze and allowed me time to make that agonizing decision.  xD And then I took the heroic option and thought it would work out only to realize it wouldn't. Those kind of options are great, although I probably couldn't have handled another one like that... really make the game replayable.

As do the multiple endings, of course! I love having consequences. Especially in a game that is touted as "dark fantasy"--I don't know if you can use the word 'believable' in that context or if it is a bit of a contradiction, but I think it fits. ^^

So yay! Options for everybody! 

[sporky1]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I would rather they make a romance that directly affects the plot akin to Morrigan's romance. I see no point in the Leliana, Zevran, and Alistair romance other than them being there...

You forget that Alistar's romance does work with the story, as you end up as queen and have to decide between letting him sleep with Morrigan or having one of the two of you die.

Leliana and Zevran don't effect the story too much, but choosin the ritual isn't great for relationships in general.

I do get your point, though. I'm just pointing out that every romance brings some degree of drama

[RPGmom28]

Alistair's romance was very adept at getting me misty eyed. Ye gods, the decisions and the consequences! A man's dreams and fears right there in your gentle hands or your iron fist. The very moulding of his view of the world by the voicing of your opinions. Even in small moments, such as the recovery of the important object from Castle Redcliffe (can't say what, spoiler). People who are comrades in the crushing claws of fate can't help but be affected by each other. Those are the parts of a romance that get me. And don't get me wrong, I loved his profile and the line of his jaw. Great job drawing that. And Steve Valentine's voice- slay me. But physical sex scenes are optional for me.

Modifié par RPGmom28, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:51 .

[Fangirl17]

errant_knight wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

How about an abusive relationship? It starts off nice enough but the person gets more and more abusive until your other companions start commenting on it and you have to try and get away.

Or a Stalker ... well, I hear Leliana was something of a stalker but since I always romanced her I never noticed. (and the few times I tried romancing someone else I felt so bad about it I dumbed them for her)

The point being there are many more complicated relationship dynamics than "lets talk nice til we fall in love"

Dude. You're creeping me out. First you want Hawke to get it on with his sister, and now this.

I know right  He must like drama.

[Fangirl17]

kaispan wrote...


I know that's not to everyone's taste, but I find anything that can affect me that strongly enough to leave me feeling something after (good book/movie/etc) to be infinitely more meaningful than a happily-ever-after.

I completely agree! The ending where Ali sacrificed himself in my place and wouldnt let me die was my favorite ending because it made me feel such a stronger reaction than the happy ending where I married him.

[Altima Darkspells]

Alistair's romance was awesome, I don't know what you're talking about.



Especially if you play as a City Elf who just can't catch a break. Man, the horrible things the game does to you...wish BioWare was even more cruel in that regards.

[Sleepicub09]

 Morrigan or the God Child

[mosaiclobster]

Fangirl17 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

How about an abusive relationship? It starts off nice enough but the person gets more and more abusive until your other companions start commenting on it and you have to try and get away.

Or a Stalker ... well, I hear Leliana was something of a stalker but since I always romanced her I never noticed. (and the few times I tried romancing someone else I felt so bad about it I dumbed them for her)

The point being there are many more complicated relationship dynamics than "lets talk nice til we fall in love"

Dude. You're creeping me out. First you want Hawke to get it on with his sister, and now this.

I know right  He must like drama.

Uhhh seriously. I like dark fantasy too, but it's called fantasy for a reason. It's supposed to afford some kind of escapism. It's fun to hold the fate of an entire village in your hands, or to decapitate darkspawn, because that isn't stuff we'll ever get the opportunity to do in real life. Even the romances, for all their great dialogue, aren't based in our world and our kind of reality.

There is no precendent for stalking or abuse (cripes!) in DA and I'd really like to keep it that way. Those are very real, very prevelant real world problems that a lot of people struggle with. It's not a matter of being too chicken or too sensitive to handle DARK FANTASY OMG. But to talk about stalking like it's just another "relationship dynamic"... seriously? Stalkers are usually mentally ill, and very often pose a real threat to their target's safety. To suggest that these themes need to be include in DA for it to be intense, or whatever, is ridiculous. Let's stick to slaying dragons, bargaining with demons, bedding assassins etc.

[Fangirl17]

mosaiclobster wrote...

Fangirl17 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

elearon1 wrote...

How about an abusive relationship? It starts off nice enough but the person gets more and more abusive until your other companions start commenting on it and you have to try and get away.

Or a Stalker ... well, I hear Leliana was something of a stalker but since I always romanced her I never noticed. (and the few times I tried romancing someone else I felt so bad about it I dumbed them for her)

The point being there are many more complicated relationship dynamics than "lets talk nice til we fall in love"

Dude. You're creeping me out. First you want Hawke to get it on with his sister, and now this.

I know right  He must like drama.

Uhhh seriously. I like dark fantasy too, but it's called fantasy for a reason. It's supposed to afford some kind of escapism. It's fun to hold the fate of an entire village in your hands, or to decapitate darkspawn, because that isn't stuff we'll ever get the opportunity to do in real life. Even the romances, for all their great dialogue, aren't based in our world and our kind of reality.

There is no precendent for stalking or abuse (cripes!) in DA and I'd really like to keep it that way. Those are very real, very prevelant real world problems that a lot of people struggle with. It's not a matter of being too chicken or too sensitive to handle DARK FANTASY OMG. But to talk about stalking like it's just another "relationship dynamic"... seriously? Stalkers are usually mentally ill, and very often pose a real threat to their target's safety. To suggest that these themes need to be include in DA for it to be intense, or whatever, is ridiculous. Let's stick to slaying dragons, bargaining with demons, bedding assassins etc.

A-freaking-men!

Modifié par Fangirl17, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:25 .

[elearon1]

>>though I doubt many would like it to be as dark as A Song of Ice and Fire. <<



Really? I've heard just the opposite, many people lamenting that it isn't darker like the Song of Fire and Ice books Bioware was supposedly taking inspiration from.



>>But to talk about stalking like it's just another "relationship dynamic"... seriously? <<



And new ways to chop off heads and death moves are just combat mechanics ... when talking about a game you have to use terminology that works for a game. You literally commit xenocide in Awakening if you choose one ending over the other - how is that better? The problem is, people become squeamish when the conversation moves from brutal murder to unhappy relationships.

[mosaiclobster]

It's "better" in my opinion because those aren't decisions real people face on a daily basis. Siding with Dalish Elves vs Werewolves or choosing Alistair over Zevran is much, much different than "unhappy relationships". Unhappy relationships that cause emotional and psychological harm for millions of people every year, and yes, often lead to brutal murder. I'm genuinely curious as to why we should let players get into situations like that? People get emotionally invested in these NPCs.



I just don't see the point of letting people roleplay traumatic situations like abuse and stalking when they can just, you know, experience those horrible things in real life. What kind of escapism is that? I don't see how it's comparable to in-game xenocide in this instance.

[Kalfear]

I havent read the thread as that much type on a computer screen would blind me!



Here is what I want from games regarding romance!



1) I want to earn the romance, if it makes sence for the character! Lelianna was great in DA:O the first play through, not to fast and you had to learn about her and make her like you!

Morrigan was perfect as well for being so easy because it suited her character and if anyone truely romanced her you know when she starts to get serious she cuts you off for a time.

There was complexity to the characters!



ME2 how ever was terrible. Jack was the best but all were pretty shallow and it was a whirlwind romance at best!



Honestly, I think what made DA:O so much better was the like/dislike meter and you had to first earn a certain level of ..."Trust (not the perfect word but works)" where as with ME2 you just had to pick the right dialogs. You could be a complete jerk to the character as long as you picked the right dialog that one time basically!



2) Freindship!



Thing that ticked me off more then anything else in ME2 is they wouldnt talk to me if I wasnt their romance partner!

Not every character is going to be you love interest and heck, you might change you mind on who your love interest is (I did in DA:O the first time through) but in ME2 if you change you get a big F YOU from Jack and silent treatment from Tali and Miranda!



3) Conversation



This goes with the freiondship but there has to be more then just the sex to the relationship!

I want to learn about these characters!

I had a tear in my eye in DA:O when Lelianna surprisingly broke out into song. That was so unexpected and awsome. Listening to her tales of suspence as a spy, her talks of the chantery, all the stuff that built up her character.



Again, ME2 after DA:O was so bland and uncreative it just fell short!



You need more then sex to the characters



4) Sex scene



Welp I said this before and ill keep saying it. ME1 had awsome sex scenes. DA:O and ME2 were laughable and ruined the immersion of the moment.



You dont have to have nudity (there are mods that can do that) but make them passionate and intense and meaningful.



Thats my take anyways

[elearon1]

>>I just don't see the point of letting people roleplay traumatic situations<<



For the same reason people watch movies about those topics, or read books in which they feature.



But hell, you're all right and I'm wrong - let us have our happy sappy rainbow and strawberries relationships and avoid anything which might make us think or effect us on an emotional level. Apparently that is what people want.

[Lara Denton]

elearon1 wrote...

>>I just don't see the point of letting people roleplay traumatic situations

For the same reason people watch movies about those topics, or read books in which they feature.

But hell, you're all right and I'm wrong - let us have our happy sappy rainbow and strawberries relationships and avoid anything which might make us think or effect us on an emotional level. Apparently that is what people want.

I said this before, somewhere else, what you're actually asking is for less options? You want to be forced into something? 

To give you an example, you had Leliana, confronting you about the Sacred Ashes and ready to die for her believes. So you're given along the way, the option for a potential disaster, but no, you don't appreciate the option. You'd rather be forced into it, because that's the only way you could be touched on the emotional level, right? 

A video game is an interactive medium, having choices is one of the biggest points to it. You don't have control in a movie or in a book, but that's one a the reasons people like RPGs - choices. 

I do want to have the option for a "happy sappy rainbow and strawberries relationships". 

[mosaiclobster]

Way to completely warp what I'm saying.

Roleplaying adds a completely different element, a whole layer of immersion that a film or book can't really rival. You, apparently, see no middleground between "abuse and stalking" and "rainbows and skipping off into the sunset." Well, I do. And it's inhabited by arguments, political differences, jealousy, etc. I think DA could benefit from rounding out relationships with such elements. If you've had no direct experience with abusive relationships and the like, I'm happy for you. Personally? I've seen too much in real life to consider it an enriching element of roleplaying.

And honestly I see no further point in debating this; Bioware eers on the side of caution when it comes to love scenes, so I can't imagine them jumping headlong into the idea of twisted, tortured relationships. And you seem completely unable to sympathize with my perspective, instead accusing me of being too saccharine.

[elearon1]

I'm not suggesting anyone take away your options - I'm suggesting giving you more options by making these things possible. Just like any of the relationship material, you have to initiate the relationship - you are not forced into any of them. If you want the sappy romance, go for it, but there should be the potential for deeper storylines there for those who want them.