(This forum doesn't call itself spoiler-free, but just in case, don't read this post at all if you haven't played DAO.)
elearon1 wrote...
...it makes it more intense, more personal, more profound - elevates the game from a toy to a form of art ... and art should be both ugly as well as pretty.
But there should probably be some kind of tell for people who simply don't want to risk this sort of thing ... like a scene which gives you some insight into the fact that this guy might be abusive, or having to be nice to the stalker three times while she becomes a little more obviously obsessive each time ... just so people don't get accidentally sucked into something that is going to ruin their game.
I don't want to give the wrong idea here - I don't want people forced into anything, or ambushed by anything, that is going to outright ruin their gaming experience ... I simply want something there for people looking for a more intense game.
If you're talking very subtle
emotional abuse, I could see it happening potentially--but physical abuse? That just doesn't work. Why would a hero allow someone to beat them? Well, if it's mild, then that's just a kink. But if they hate it or it's serious and causes real pain and injury, then it doesn't make sense--a champion who had the strength and self-confidence and determination to do great things does
not become somebody's doormat. The protagonist of a Bioware game might be insecure, but they wouldn't make sense as a cowering abuse victim suffering from a bad case of learned helplessness. Check out descriptions of those types and you'll see what I mean.
Victims may possess some or all of the following
characteristics:--
Isolation, a lonely continence or a
feeling of being alone, without support or help.--
They accept
responsibility for the behaviors of others, particularly their abuser.--
Feel
powerless in their own lives.--
Feel embarrassed to admit they are
victims of abuse.--
Victims may feel powerless to change their
situation or protect themselves.--
They feel stuck in the life they
chose.--
A victim may actually feel responsible for their choice to
stay in the relationship.--
Have
low self esteem. Believe they can't survive outside the relationship.Do you really think a grim, battle-stained heroine/hero eating darkspawn guts for breakfast is going to feel isolated and like there's no way out and no support with a sister and other companions at their side? That they'll feel like it's their fault the world is a hard place and blame themselves rather than the horrors of war for others' actions? That they'll feel powerless despite vanquishing foes all day? That they'll be embarrassed to admit what, it being a small camp, others won't be able to help overhearing? That they'll feel stuck, and guilty for being stuck, and believe they can't survive if they kick ONE USELESS FRACKING JERK out of their party? Hell, even if the player doesn't, the rest might do so for the sake of the mission--or if they're somebody like Zevran, they might just kill the bastard and leave him in a ditch! Maybe it's just being a psych student and having known abused individuals that does this to me, but that immediately sounds wrong to me, the idea of the PC being abused and that relationship continuing for longer than about 5 minutes past the first punch.
I'm all for dark. I'm not afraid to say the strawberries are moldy and the rainbows are fleeting. But even if they are, that doesn't mean physical abuse makes
any sense here.
Besides, the major fun of the Witcher, for instance, is being able to make your mark. To make the world a
less ugly place rather than wallowing in the same crap most others get stuck in. The darkness comes from the misery of knowing that you
can't fix
everything. You can't eradicate prostitution or the abuse of others
not in your party like wives and children and poor or disabled men, nor ignorance, nor racism, etc. The best you can do is find a way to step in along the way whenever you can--and when you can, despite not being able to improve the whole world for the better, you can at least beat the crap out of
one jerk husband, at least help
one beggar find a job, at least enlighten
one ignorant racist. That's the kind of thing I like to see. Give me a genuine crapsack world so that I can either revel in it, or be the fracking rainbow myself. Voila.
While I'm absolutely on board for genuine darkness and dysfunction, and I definitely sympathize with the gist of what you're saying, I don't believe it should apply so much to the player character as to the characters around you--but if it does apply to you, then it has to still make sense psychologically... an abusive relationship absolutely doesn't for a character like the protagonist of a Bioware game. At least, no Bioware game I can think of, as you're always a kind of Lady of War (or Lord of War) and you level up, showing progress and initiative.
Besides, I prefer the tortured Cullen types; so stubborn and ashamed, yet so defiant. Imagine if you could see him again after the way the Mage Tower was left. It's just so much more fun to be the vixen than the victim...
or even just the sensible girl who helps unravel a brainwashed, lyrium-drugged person's rigid Chantry-related issues.
DrunkDeadman wrote...
Dunno if suggested, but more
physical interaction with love interests and companions overall would be
great. It bothered me a lot in Origins that except for kisses and sex
scenes, there was barely any physical interaction between the Warden and
the rest of the companions.
I'd love to comfort my LI while s/he is
sad and hug him/her. Or punch one of the companions in the jaw for an
indecent remark. Or playfuly tackle a friend to the ground. Or give a
pat on the back for a job well done. You get my drift.
So, anyone
else feels the same?
I don't think there's anybody who likes romance who doesn't! They might think those things are superfluous, but actually, being able to spontaneously do those things--or have the NPC spontaneously do them back--it feels very natural. That's what real people do. They get a sudden rush of fondness and just reach over and wrap their arms around their lover, or friend, or mother figure (Wynne.) They lock hands, lock eyes, lock lips, bump hips. It makes the game world feel alive when you do that, and maybe see others doing it, too.
the_one_54321 wrote...
You view it as petty. Try to see it from the
other side of the coin. What if someone you were deeply in love with did
something that thoroughly betrayed your feelings?
*sigh* As a psych student, seeing from others' perspectives is something I have almost based my life around, actually--particularly in a case like this. I do not need to
try to see it from the other side. I
saw his side, immediately and instantly, and just as swiftly disagreed with it. Passionately. My Brosca was very level-headed and could set aside her personal feelings, however strong, for the survival of Thedas. That's a pretty easy decision. If the archdemon wins, everybody loses, period, and you don't know what's going to make the difference, so you take everything you can get whether it's shiny or rusty.
The problem is, regardless of his perspective or his
feelings of betrayal, Alistair
was not the one betrayed. That is an objective point of view. Alistair went entirely with his emotions whereas the player character acted like a true Warden because somebody had to. As you yourself said in that post, "he leaves her
as a result of her doing the right thing". That is why Alistair is petty.
Simply put, you don't know even half as much about Duncan as you would need to know to make that kind of claim.
Simply put, you need to refresh your memory about Duncan before you make that kind of statement, because it's pure nonsense. What we know of Duncan is that he is a Warden's Warden. If the subject is useful and at all qualified, the Wardens
take anyone no matter WHAT they have done, full stop, period,
hands DOWN. The Origins taught us that; Duncan explicitly states it. Talent is all that matters, and that's something Loghain has plenty of. So yes, you and I and everyone know twice as much as we need to about Duncan to be able to fairly say, "Duncan would spare Loghain. Because to hell with personal feelings; being a Warden means stopping the Blight, taking
every hand we can get to do so, and not spurning perfectly good candidates." Particularly since, as he and Riordan knew, someone has to die (which both you and Alistair knew was a possibility even before you knew it was a certainty.) And even more so when the person in question was a good man once, had good intentions all along, and is a strong warrior/general who is a hero to the people and will inspire great morale with his redemption. Not to mention the fact that he might not have lived more than five seconds after taking a sip anyway.
I felt pure righteous rage at Loghain for so many reasons the first time I played the game, before realizing in later playthroughs that that viper Howe was the source of much of it--but even on my first playthrough when all was fresh and my view was untainted, that was irrelevant. Thoughtlessly judgmental, I am not. As a teenager, I might have felt the same as Alistair. As an adult, I knew my anger was
irrelevant. Alistair didn't.
Well, frankly, having read your post, I feel like you knee-jerk defended Alistair a bit and didn't really pay attention to the point of mine. I understand, though; Alistair is easy to love despite his flaws. You seemed to think I hadn't thought very hard, but I've actually thought about this well more than a little over the last seven months or so and I know what I think quite well. In fact, all that "He was emotional! He felt betrayed!" stuff is hardly a revelation to anyone who's played the game a single time--his feelings are hardly subtle. It is clear very early on that he loved Duncan as a father, which is the only reason I didn't despise him completely for his actions, because that
is sympathetic and understandable to a degree--but if you listen carefully, someone who says "I won't call him brother! " is not acting solely on grief.
Alistair:
"Joining the Wardens is an honor, not a punishment! Name him a Warden and you cheapen us all! I will not stand next to him as a brother. I won't!"As I said originally, (un-hardened) Alistair behaves like a child--and yes, that's why he's "not the character I wanted him to be." It's the
reputation of the Wardens and his
pride in them that gets his temper going, in part. If it were
only his pain over Duncan talking, he would be pleading or raging on the basis of that. But, again, as I stated, what I really take issue with is not being able to
tell him what he's doing wrong, and through that give him a fair chance to change his mind rather than just storm off because of emotion only to regret it later, for the rest of his sad drunken loser's existence. And for the record, I could hardly bear to see that happen to him despite how betrayed I felt, so it's not as if I didn't care. I held out hope that he would see reason until the bitter end.
To wrap this up, hopefully for good since this is only somewhat on-topic, I think that if I could have pointed out to Alistair that what I was doing was what Duncan would've done--if I'd really prodded him to face that, if I'd been able to be more understanding and show more sympathy but still press him to do the right thing--he might well have changed his mind. It's not as if, deep down, he didn't want to anyway. Proven by the fact that you can get him to back down under a set of very careful circumstances, and then even express grudging respect if you let Loghain die. If only there were a way to get that to happen under other circumstances... but DAO is what it is; you'd take some of the teeth and the balance out of it if you could make the really good arguments, I guess. It just feels a bit cheaper if you're a Brosca with massive cunning and full persuade and Love status with Alistair. It would even feel that way if you yourself could think of much better arguments to stand on than your character could (which is how I did feel, and I don't think I can be the only one who felt that way). But what complaints I have do not come with expectations of change, nor even an actual desire for change, just a desire to express what I hope not to see again--a situation where you can't do your
absolute damnedest to get through to the person you love when they're about to make the biggest mistake of their life.
We'll see what the next game holds.
laradenton wrote...
I completely disagree with you about
Alistair's feelings. We're talking about the same guy who, after
breaking up with the PC, decides to sacrifice himself to save her,
right? And that's done out of some feelings of lust?
You can
also try to see his side of the story, and he probably feels as betrayed
as strongly as your PC does.
I know he can redeem himself if you play it right... and no, I don't think that act is done out of lust. At worst, it's a little bit King Cailan/senselessly idealistic. At best, it's poignant and beautiful. But despite my disillusionment with him I haven't yet been able to bring myself to let him do it. And as much as I'd like to believe it's out of love... I don't know. Maybe he's just following Duncan, or fulfilling his role as the Wardens, or all of the above. I guess I should play through that ending at least twice and see what he says if he loves you vs. if he doesn't.
I know he feels betrayed. It's just that his betrayal, in stark contrast to the PC's, is not warranted. Or at least, it wouldn't be if you could actually explain to him why you're doing what you're doing, although I rather felt he should have understood, being a Warden. The reason I say this is because your actions are based on doing what is right and his are based on personal emotion.
Since The Calling is a death sentence regardless, Alistair puts a light on what
really bothers him with that line about how "Joining the Wardens is an honor, not a punishment! Name him a Warden and you cheapen us all!" Even though Howe was the worst, even though the Human Noble could tell him about Howe if there had been an option for you to talk about your actual past, even though Loghain was once a hero in his own right... he "won't stand next to him as a brother." When you really let yourself think about it, it's an ugly thing. It's beneath Alistair to say and think and act on such ideas.
I can completely understand why you said what you said and I didn't take offense at any of it. I'm not into the idea of a debate, either. But I think part of the point of Alistair is that the wrong qualities in a person, if not addressed and dealt with, can lead even a basically decent and good-hearted person to absolutely appalling actions. Like abandoning everything good about you--your duty, your patriotism, your protective instincts, and even the woman who loves you--for a taste of revenge driven by guilt, and the protection of your pride over being a Warden. I just still wish, and probably always will, that you'd been given even a rare and tricky set of options to talk him into realizing the gravity of the path he's stepping onto is about to crush you both--and most everything you've fought for.
mopotter wrote...
Wynne - I think you are one of the few
who understood my thoughts. You might want to worry about that. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]
Not at all! Maybe this is the crazy train, but if so, I'm plenty happy here on board.
Jimmy Fury wrote...
and @Wynne and the Alistair debate:
I
can see why Alistair would act the way he did. Maker knows my Cousland
would have slit the throat of anyone who dared suggest he spare Howe's
life.
My friend, that is because unlike Loghain, who at least meant well and was once a good man and a hero, Howe is (a) ambitious, (
a sociopath, © useless even to the Wardens, and (d) the dark little voice whispering in Loghain's ear. Intentions matter a lot. Can you see Howe setting aside all his plans like Loghain does? For the greater good?
Sparing Loghain is justifiable; sparing Howe would not be.
That's not emotion-based, it's based on the characteristics of the specific individuals we're talking about. Loghain cares about something other than himself, Howe does not, and that's the difference between a redeemable character and an unredeemable one.
errant_knight wrote...
Heh, I'm purposely ignoring this
(with difficulty) in the name of not having every single thread end up
being 'why Alistair sucks/is awesome' or 'why Loghain sucks is awesome'.
However it may seem, the honest truth is that I have come to love and understand both characters. And also hate them for certain things they've done. But the love really is stronger than the hate, in both cases, and I forgive them for those flaws. They are both very complex characters.
Both of them suck, and both of them are awesome, and both in drastically different ways. They're two of the most vivid characters ever. In case I haven't said it enough times yet, all that really gets to me is that I felt the game didn't let me fight for Alistair the way I wanted to. I wanted to get through to him... I wanted to at least be able to really try. In the end, I just don't feel the PC options were satisfying enough.
Modifié par Wynne, 16 juillet 2010 - 12:49 .
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