924 réponses à ce sujet

[Chitinous]

As I said then, let Beth have an NPC romance and let the player (as Hawke) play matchmaker rather than paramour!

[Chitinous]

After all, I'd feel every bit as close to the character of a sister and her partner in peril as I would to a partner. Would anyone else not?

[Chuvvy]

Bobad wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Lowenhart wrote...

Wouldnt hold my breath to much on that, from what i heard Mass effect 1 got bashed for having so much nudity, which i believe is why you see it alot less in love scenes in Dragon age: origin and Mass effect 2 compared to mass effect 1.

Mass Effect 1 got bashed because some overzealous moral guardian heard that it was a 'sex simulator' and blogged about it, raising hell. They never played the game, and even admitted it afterward. Everyone jumped on board without even viewing the content. Never-the-less, Bioware has backed down even though the entire premise for the thing was a total fabrication. Probably because all the people that jumped on it in the first place are too vain to admit they were wrong and will make another ruckus if Bioware does another ME1 rendition.

Plenty of games have nudity. GTA TLaD had a guys dick showing for an entire cutscene, God of War always has nudity, RDR had a sex scene where everything was shown. I'm not wanting a sex simulator lest anyone make that assumption, I want games to be respected as an entertainment medium. Even though video games are the biggest profit makers in the entertainment industry everyone sees them as being for kids. The ME sex thing is the perfect example. It's rated M, which is basically R for movies but when an M rated game shows ANIMATED side boob everyone freaks out. An R rated movie has a nude sex scene where you can see REAL breasts no one gives it a second glance. ****ING DOUBLE STANDERS HOW DO THEY WORK? I think when the generation from the 90's gets old enough to have kids and be controling things is when gaming will be respected. Every new big thing goes through this time period where older people get scared because it's new and they don't understand it.

I agree with this, there is a very prevelant mindset in society that always associates games with kids, there's rarely any outcry for games where you can dismember and decapitate, but nudity will surely be the harbinger of societal decline, I know you feel this. 

Which is stupid.

[Riona45]

Pedrak wrote...
True, but I still like that a lot better than the Awakening "I have to find a specific bush or statue or view to click
on before I can have a chat with my pals" system. It made me feel like a tourist guide!

I get that.  I have the feeling options to chat with people will be far more numerous than they were in Awakening, as DA2 at least is a full game.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Shaorie wrote...

Yeah, your last line pretty much sums it up xD

I am not saying I dont feel connected to the other characters, but you have to agree that the romance is a tad more emotionall especially if they are about to die o.o

Mmm...not really, actually.  For me, the friendship with Shale had some of the most emotional punch in the game.  As did the friendship-gone-wrong with Jowan.  I was so furious with Jowan that I couldn't do anything but sit there and splutter when I found his sorry ass at Redcliffe.  *shrug*  Or maybe it's just because I've played an asston of BioWare romances; I'd put the romances on par with the friendships emotionally.

[Riona45]

Chitinous wrote...

After all, I'd feel every bit as close to the character of a sister and her partner in peril as I would to a partner. Would anyone else not?

Why do they have to be in peril?

I'll admit, some of the suggestions I've seen regarding Bethany so far have rubbed me the wrong way (even aside from suggestions of incest).  We know nothing about this character or how mature she is, yet she is infantilized frequently (even though she is both a grown woman and a mage) and some people look forward to treating her like she's a damsel in distress.*  Your suggestions on their own have merit, but they're a bit "poisoned" for me after reading posts involving protecting her from bad choices in lovers (or just bad choices in general).  In short, some people look foward to being something of a parent to Bethany as well as a sibling, and I find it a little unsettling.  My opinion on this will probably be unpopular--so be it.
 


*I really, really hope she isn't used that way in the game.

[Coyote Hunter]

My wife has sat behind me and watched as every BioWare character romance
I've pursued has inevitably come to its horrible fruition.  Not because
she is interested, but rather, because she knows that to wrap up the
chat up and get to the perverted stuff, I've put in a lot of time lying
to virtual women

• "I'm totally interested in your daddy issues, female Jedi who I haven't equipped with armor."
• "OH I SEE YOU NOTICED I'VE BEEN FLIRTING WITH BOTH OF YOU, CHILDHOOD FRIEND AND PRINCESS WHO HAS DADDY ISSUES, SO, THREESOME?"
• "Oh,
  poetic post-racial hottie who has daddy issues, Kaiden's totally not nuke-bait
  right now just because I want to see some sideboob in five hours."
• "I totally respect you as a woman who has daddy issues, not because you were genetically engineered to fit into tight pants."
• "Ooh, shoes!  I LOVE shoes!  Hey, did you hear that Alistair has some really bad daddy issues?"

Of the more explicit romances of late, these have been her opinions:

• Mass
  Effect - Shep and Ash - It was like clunking a naked Barbie and Ken
  doll together and making the moaning noises for both characters.
• Dragon Age - Leliana and the warden - Watching Leliana dry hump a hideous midget while wearing medieval underwear presented a great opportunity for unintentionally hilarious inferrences.
• Dragon Age - Morrigan and Alistair - She was shocked into silence.

Once she knew why they were having sex of how it
effected the story, all the uncanny valley criticisms went out the
window.  She obsessed over it, piecing together pieces of the puzzle,
and what it could mean for the future.  She told me I should have let
Alistair die killing the archdemon, and got angry at me for being so
selfish, and that I probably doomed the world.  She was amazed at how
subtle the build up to this scene had been, and that I wasn't forcing it
with sappy dialogue responses.  It was just something manipulative and
terrible that occurred, like most real casual sex.


And so, that said, I have two requests for romance in Dragon Age 2:

• Have
  a reason for sex other than "hey, I spent like five hours listening to
  your pie hole flap about your daddy issues and we're about to head into
  what is probably our final confrontation with some bad guy, surely
  you're horny by now, yes?"  Give us a reason to care, and don't fall
  into old tropes, even if you want to for a seemingly valid gameplay
  reason.
• ******. 

If you're going to go so far as
to have guys scream while burning to death, get decapitated and explode
in a whirlwind of gore in your game, I've got to ask: why?  Well, the
answer there is obvious.  To get a reaction - to excite or motivate, or
to disgust or cause fear in the player.  That makese sense, but like
myself, a lot of BioWare's fans have grown up playing their games, and the important thing to take away from that statement is that we've grown up. 

If
games really are a story telling vehicle on par with books or movies,
then its probably time somebody went forward and dragged the medium into
the same moral bounds that they exist in.  That means romance and sex that stirs an
emotional response just as much as violence already does.  No more clunking
naked Barbies together, I really want to see something better than that
in Dragon Age 2.

[mllrthyme]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Mmm...not really, actually.  For me, the friendship with Shale had some of the most emotional punch in the game.  As did the friendship-gone-wrong with Jowan.  I was so furious with Jowan that I couldn't do anything but sit there and splutter when I found his sorry ass at Redcliffe.  *shrug*  Or maybe it's just because I've played an asston of BioWare romances; I'd put the romances on par with the friendships emotionally.

I loved Shale, I thought she was hilarious and would take her along just to hear her spout off.  I especially enjoyed the dialogue options when my PC learned she was female.  Jowan was alright as a buddy, and any character that evokes that level of irritation that I felt when I found him at Redcliffe is good writing by me.  The friendship that pulled my heartstrings the most was when I found Tamlen again.  Oh my, I was just shocked into silence for a bit after that scene.

[joriandrake]

Riona45 wrote...

Pedrak wrote...
True, but I still like that a lot better than the Awakening "I have to find a specific bush or statue or view to click
on before I can have a chat with my pals" system. It made me feel like a tourist guide!

I get that.  I have the feeling options to chat with people will be far more numerous than they were in Awakening, as DA2 at least is a full game.

Although discussing the meaning of life with a statue, tree, or lamppost would also be interesting

[Fangirl17]

Tinxa wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks that the bra situation in DAO has nothing to do with Bioware becoming more prudish? I think it was just simpler to make cutscenes that way and the devs didn't have to make separate nude models for them. The characters were just stripped of their current equipement for the cutscene, leaving them in the standard underwear so the bra was visible in some parts of the cutscene... and that's it. It didn't really bother me if the bra was on or off in any case.

Hm,I never thought of it that way...You might be on to something but I guess we'll never know untill a dev gives us the reason.

[AllThatJazz]

joriandrake wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Pedrak wrote...
True, but I still like that a lot better than the Awakening "I have to find a specific bush or statue or view to click
on before I can have a chat with my pals" system. It made me feel like a tourist guide!

I get that.  I have the feeling options to chat with people will be far more numerous than they were in Awakening, as DA2 at least is a full game.

Although discussing the meaning of life with a statue, tree, or lamppost would also be interesting

In Bloodlines you could argue with a stop sign x  There's much to be said for chatting with inanimate objects - for a certain type of character, anyway ...

[AllThatJazz]

mllrthyme wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Mmm...not really, actually.  For me, the friendship with Shale had some of the most emotional punch in the game.  As did the friendship-gone-wrong with Jowan.  I was so furious with Jowan that I couldn't do anything but sit there and splutter when I found his sorry ass at Redcliffe.  *shrug*  Or maybe it's just because I've played an asston of BioWare romances; I'd put the romances on par with the friendships emotionally.

I loved Shale, I thought she was hilarious and would take her along just to hear her spout off.  I especially enjoyed the dialogue options when my PC learned she was female.  Jowan was alright as a buddy, and any character that evokes that level of irritation that I felt when I found him at Redcliffe is good writing by me.  The friendship that pulled my heartstrings the most was when I found Tamlen again.  Oh my, I was just shocked into silence for a bit after that scene.

Yes, the part where she asked me if the crystals made her look too large (can't remember the exact words) was one of those laugh out loud moments. Just a brilliant character. x 

[AllThatJazz]

Riona45 wrote...

Chitinous wrote...

After all, I'd feel every bit as close to the character of a sister and her partner in peril as I would to a partner. Would anyone else not?

Why do they have to be in peril?

I'll admit, some of the suggestions I've seen regarding Bethany so far have rubbed me the wrong way (even aside from suggestions of incest).  We know nothing about this character or how mature she is, yet she is infantilized frequently (even though she is both a grown woman and a mage) and some people look forward to treating her like she's a damsel in distress.*  Your suggestions on their own have merit, but they're a bit "poisoned" for me after reading posts involving protecting her from bad choices in lovers (or just bad choices in general).  In short, some people look foward to being something of a parent to Bethany as well as a sibling, and I find it a little unsettling.  My opinion on this will probably be unpopular--so be it.
 


*I really, really hope she isn't used that way in the game.

I could be completely wrong, but I think that by 'partner in peril', Chitinous is meaning 'partner in crime' sort of thing, rather than someone who necessarily needs rescuing.   I agree with what you said, however - I intensely dislike the damsel in distress thing, whether that distress is physical or emotional. As far as I'm concerned, if characters are grown up enough to be swinging swords or slinging spells, they're adult enough to be making their own decisions and dealing with the consequences! Which isn't to say that I wouldn't race to the rescue (I would!), but with a 'hmph' at an overused narrative device <_<

Modifié par AllThatJazz, 03 août 2010 - 10:42 .

[joriandrake]

AllThatJazz wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Pedrak wrote...
True, but I still like that a lot better than the Awakening "I have to find a specific bush or statue or view to click
on before I can have a chat with my pals" system. It made me feel like a tourist guide!

I get that.  I have the feeling options to chat with people will be far more numerous than they were in Awakening, as DA2 at least is a full game.

Although discussing the meaning of life with a statue, tree, or lamppost would also be interesting

In Bloodlines you could argue with a stop sign x  There's much to be said for chatting with inanimate objects - for a certain type of character, anyway ...

you deserve a cookie for getting my hint, I want to be able to play like a madman Hawke once for the laughs

[AllThatJazz]

I loved playing that game as a Malkavian! And Hawke would have a great reason for being unhinged, what with the events in Lothering and all :-))

[Pedrak]

Well, if you pay attention to her voice, you'll realize that in Awakening you could make Jeanette Voerman, the sexy Malkavian goth chick, join the Grey Wardens...

[AllThatJazz]

Pedrak wrote...

Well, if you pay attention to her voice, you'll realize that in Awakening you could make Jeanette Voerman, the sexy Malkavian goth chick, join the Grey Wardens...

I know, but I hated Velanna! Liked Jeanette/Therese, though (actually, maybe 'liked' is the wrong word )

[Jarlof Seoul]

I just want to find Morrigan...

[bergerrz]

Jarlof Seoul wrote...

I just want to find Morrigan...

agreed, That ending really hurt.

[Chuvvy]

Jarlof Seoul wrote...

I just want to find Morrigan...

As Hawke? So you can reignite the romance you had with her as the warden? That makes no sense. I'm 90% sure I've been over this topic with you before.

[SirOccam]

Coyote Hunter wrote...

My wife has sat behind me and watched as every BioWare character romance
I've pursued has inevitably come to its horrible fruition.  Not because
she is interested, but rather, because she knows that to wrap up the
chat up and get to the perverted stuff, I've put in a lot of time lying
to virtual women

• "I'm totally interested in your daddy issues, female Jedi who I haven't equipped with armor."
• "OH I SEE YOU NOTICED I'VE BEEN FLIRTING WITH BOTH OF YOU, CHILDHOOD FRIEND AND PRINCESS WHO HAS DADDY ISSUES, SO, THREESOME?"
• "Oh,
  poetic post-racial hottie who has daddy issues, Kaiden's totally not nuke-bait
  right now just because I want to see some sideboob in five hours."
• "I totally respect you as a woman who has daddy issues, not because you were genetically engineered to fit into tight pants."
• "Ooh, shoes!  I LOVE shoes!  Hey, did you hear that Alistair has some really bad daddy issues?"

Of the more explicit romances of late, these have been her opinions:

• Mass
  Effect - Shep and Ash - It was like clunking a naked Barbie and Ken
  doll together and making the moaning noises for both characters.
• Dragon Age - Leliana and the warden - Watching Leliana dry hump a hideous midget while wearing medieval underwear presented a great opportunity for unintentionally hilarious inferrences.
• Dragon Age - Morrigan and Alistair - She was shocked into silence.

Once she knew why they were having sex of how it
effected the story, all the uncanny valley criticisms went out the
window.  She obsessed over it, piecing together pieces of the puzzle,
and what it could mean for the future.  She told me I should have let
Alistair die killing the archdemon, and got angry at me for being so
selfish, and that I probably doomed the world.  She was amazed at how
subtle the build up to this scene had been, and that I wasn't forcing it
with sappy dialogue responses.  It was just something manipulative and
terrible that occurred, like most real casual sex.


And so, that said, I have two requests for romance in Dragon Age 2:

• Have
  a reason for sex other than "hey, I spent like five hours listening to
  your pie hole flap about your daddy issues and we're about to head into
  what is probably our final confrontation with some bad guy, surely
  you're horny by now, yes?"  Give us a reason to care, and don't fall
  into old tropes, even if you want to for a seemingly valid gameplay
  reason.
• ******. 

If you're going to go so far as
to have guys scream while burning to death, get decapitated and explode
in a whirlwind of gore in your game, I've got to ask: why?  Well, the
answer there is obvious.  To get a reaction - to excite or motivate, or
to disgust or cause fear in the player.  That makese sense, but like
myself, a lot of BioWare's fans have grown up playing their games, and the important thing to take away from that statement is that we've grown up. 

If
games really are a story telling vehicle on par with books or movies,
then its probably time somebody went forward and dragged the medium into
the same moral bounds that they exist in.  That means romance and sex that stirs an
emotional response just as much as violence already does.  No more clunking
naked Barbies together, I really want to see something better than that
in Dragon Age 2.

What a great post.

As much as I do like the Mass Effect series, the romances are pretty terrible. They're no better than just lining up all the options and going "okay, let's see, I'll have sex with..........you." You just choose who you want, talk a couple times, and there you have it.

In Origins, not only are the romances way more in depth, but sex isn't treated as some kind of trophy to be earned. The DR, as you mentioned, is a perfect example. A lot of people decry Morrigan for being so easy (hey, maybe 'tis really cold in her tent!), but the Dark Ritual throws all of that into doubt. Like your Warden can say, "is this why you've been so...friendly?" Did she totally just use sex to manipulate you? Maybe so! And that's awesome (for the story...not so much for the one being manipulated).

[Riona45]

joriandrake wrote...

Although discussing the meaning of life with a statue, tree, or lamppost would also be interesting

Very true--although, I'm sure the level of interest would partly depend on the PC's mental state at the time.

[Riona45]

AllThatJazz wrote...

In Bloodlines you could argue with a stop sign x  There's much to be said for chatting with inanimate objects - for a certain type of character, anyway ...

I watched a youtube video featuring a Malkavian having a conversation with a guy on TV.

I really need to play that game...

[Riona45]

AllThatJazz wrote...
I could be completely wrong, but I think that by 'partner in peril', Chitinous is meaning 'partner in crime' sort of thing, rather than someone who necessarily needs rescuing.  

That's entirely possible.

I agree with what you said, however - I intensely dislike the damsel in distress thing, whether that distress is physical or emotional. As far as I'm concerned, if characters are grown up enough to be swinging swords or slinging spells, they're adult enough to be making their own decisions and dealing with the consequences! Which isn't to say that I wouldn't race to the rescue (I would!), but with a 'hmph' at an overused narrative device <_<

Hear hear!  There's nothing wrong with helping out a sibling, I just wouldn't want it to become a theme (for example, it's always Bethany in trouble and you have to save her from it).

[Riona45]

In Origins, not only are the romances way more in depth, but sex isn't treated as some kind of trophy to be earned.

Well, aside from the fact that each love interest has a specific achievement attached to them, which you receive after having sex.

That aside, I do concur with your main point.