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[errant_knight]

Dick Delaware wrote...

errant_knight wrote...
Yes, the writing is the one part of the game about which I have complete confidence.

I'm not so sure. Personally, I've always felt the writing in BioWare games to be grossly overrated. It's OK, but the only reason people think it's so great is because standards in the video game industry are abysmal. In the RPG genre, if we're talking just writing, Obsidian, Troika, and Black Isle have done a better job in this regard.

Dragon Age is significantly better in this regard than most other BioWare games, but some improvements really need to be made. First, I think that the characters, while they have their well-written moments (Alistair at the Landsmeet) they sometimes succumb to pouring their emotions on the player right from the get-go. I think Alistair in particular suffers from this, and I found his goofy immaturity and lack of willingness to take responsibility didn't really mesh at all with him taking his duty of being a Grey Warden seriously. I liked the fact that he was naive (in fact, considering he's in an organization that's done a lot of shady things in the past, it's a nice contrast) but I found his childishness kind of annoying and out of place - dude, you drank a vial of darkspawn blood and have killed the bastards before, how could you possibly be afraid of leading? I thought it was just a convenient excuse to have the PC in charge.

I know that the writers are supposed to make the characters stand out from one another, but I'd like them to be a bit more down-to-earth and adult. My biggest complaint is that sometimes they'd act like whiny kids instead of real people with realistic motivations. Don't get me wrong, sometimes the motivations would make perfect sense - Alistair wants Loghain dead and will never be willing to have him as a Grey Warden because in his idealism, he sees being a Grey Warden as an honour, and won't tolerate standing with Loghain, no matter how practical it might be. I think it's irrational and I'd much rather have Loghain with us, but that's real passion. It's serious, it allows you to take Alistair seriously and is way more engaging than hearing him and Morrigan bicker like twelve year olds.

Look, I like companions. They add a lot - all I'm saying is I want more moments like that, with clear and well thought-out motivations, rather than having an angst battalion tailing me the whole game.

Second, the main plot itself and the whole darkspawn concept is just really bland. You're just  on a quest to kill the Dragon that's leading the orcs - not really that imaginative.

Well, I think we just disagree about characterization, in general. I won't respond directly except to say that I completely disagree with your analysis of Alistair, because we all know what happens if we go there. I think that the other companies that you mentioned make good games, but I've never felt as strong an emotional connection to other characters as I have with Dragon Age. Going back to their games now feels quite lonely and alienating. Which is fine in some games. There are plots where you should feel alienated and alone. But for me, DA:O really set the bar for immersion and replayability, and much of that was the strength of connection with the characters and the emotion it evoked.

[Dick Delaware]

Saibh wrote...
Hmm...all I'll say, is that I think you're missing the point. On the first and second point. Real people don't fit archetypes that easily. Real people surprise you. Alistair having a strong sense of duty while whining and acting like a child sometimes make absolute sense in regards to his character. And as for the second, the main storyline--go on a quest to destroy an ancient evil--is cliche, yes, but I always felt that the point of DA  was to build on old cliches, add things to them and make them real, instead of the tired-out old Tolkien cliches everyone's done again and again. If you don't feel that from what you've seen, I doubt I can convince you, yanno?

It's not so much the whining. It's that he has a strong sense of duty, but is afraid of responsibility. He plans on killing the Archdemon no matter what and will not be swayed, and he says as much when you talk to him, but the fact that he's also completely unwilling to lead in order to make that happen is what doesn't make sense to me.

And Alistair did surprise me at times. Like I said, the Landsmeet was one of those occasions. I wish there was more - hell, I know a lot of people hated him at that moment, but I felt like I was going to off Loghain just because of how fiery and serious Alistair was at that moment. Before when he talked about his rough childhood or his sister, I'd be like "yeah, yeah, whatever, everything's going to be alright" like I did with Carth, but I wasn't really invested. But when he started screaming for me to kill him, he had my rapt attention, because at that moment, the character was demanding to be taken seriously. Yeah, he's this naive, shy guy, but then all of a sudden he becomes pissed off and serious, and it's believable.

It did build on some cliches, true. I liked the lore surrounding the dwarves, I liked that they were totally ruthless around one another instead of merry. But I don't think building on cliches is enough, you have to do interesting things on your own. The qunari, for instance, are very different from your standard fantasy races and aren't related to any standard fantasy cliches, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they're probably the most interesting part of the game's lore. I'd love to see a Dragon Age game set in the Par Vollen jungles.

The game setting might have a few interesting twists on your standard fantasy setting (and let me just say, the game IS standard fantasy, not dark fantasy as it's often marketed as) but it still uses them as a crutch a little too often. Compare the setting of Ferelden to that of other, more avant-garde fantasy RPG with places like Rashemen or Planescape, or hell, Morrowind. The difference is pretty staggering.

[Saibh]

Dick Delaware wrote...

It's not so much the whining. It's that he has a strong sense of duty, but is afraid of responsibility. He plans on killing the Archdemon no matter what and will not be swayed, and he says as much when you talk to him, but the fact that he's also completely unwilling to lead in order to make that happen is what doesn't make sense to me.

And Alistair did surprise me at times. Like I said, the Landsmeet was one of those occasions. I wish there was more - hell, I know a lot of people hated him at that moment, but I felt like I was going to off Loghain just because of how fiery and serious Alistair was at that moment. Before when he talked about his rough childhood or his sister, I'd be like "yeah, yeah, whatever, everything's going to be alright" like I did with Carth, but I wasn't really invested. But when he started screaming for me to kill him, he had my rapt attention, because at that moment, the character was demanding to be taken seriously. Yeah, he's this naive, shy guy, but then all of a sudden he becomes pissed off and serious, and it's believable.

But this made sense. To me, we're explained that Eamon and the templars bost instilled in him this sense that nothing is more important than the responsibilites set out for you: but he was never given a choice about any of these responsibilities. He explains why he doesn't want to be king, because he thinks he's a poor leader, and doesn't want to be responsible for anyone, but since Ferelden needs a king that is not Loghain, Alistair must do it. He doesn't want to, he has to. Haven't you everb heard of the "reluctant hero"?

Just because he feels he must do something doesn't mean he wants to. This is a real life thing I'm surprised you've never encountered. A sense of obligation does not denote any sort of appetite for it.

Dick Delaware wrote...

It did build on some cliches, true. I liked the lore surrounding the dwarves, I liked that they were totally ruthless around one another instead of merry. But I don't think building on cliches is enough, you have to do interesting things on your own. The qunari, for instance, are very different from your standard fantasy races and aren't related to any standard fantasy cliches, and I don't think it's a coincidence that they're probably the most interesting part of the game's lore. I'd love to see a Dragon Age game set in the Par Vollen jungles.

The game setting might have a few interesting twists on your standard fantasy setting (and let me just say, the game IS standard fantasy, not dark fantasy as it's often marketed as) but it still uses them as a crutch a little too often. Compare the setting of Ferelden to that of other, more avant-garde fantasy RPG with places like Rashemen or Planescape, or hell, Morrowind. The difference is pretty staggering.

Well, there's where we're different. For me, it's enough. For you, it's not. And I agree, it's a standard RPG, not a dark fantasy. I don't believe dark fantasy means more sex and violence, and I don't believe the dark elements were really that dark.

Modifié par Saibh, 17 juillet 2010 - 07:01 .

[Addai]

errant_knight wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I believe so. The cook tells the moral tale of the Dog to a female Cousland; not the males.

She tells Hohaku's story to a mCousland as well as female.

Anyway, I guess the strengths of DAO in regards to interactions that recognized you as a female Warden is credit to the writers and hopefully that credit will carry over to any new games.  I for one have few qualms about the abilities of the writers.  I'm just not sure the story they're going to tell is being presented in a form I would want to play as an RPG.  it sounds like something I'd rather watch in a movie or read in a novel.

Yes, the writing is the one part of the game about which I have complete confidence.

And yet I feel that we're absolutely justified in complaining about the changes, because from Origins to Awakening I saw a very noticeable clamp on the ability of the writers to wow me.  I was so intrigued with the new NPCs, but there was no way to get into their heads.  It was quite frustrating, actually.  I couldn't even talk to them.  I had to wait for them to maaaaybe, once in a while, have something to say to me.  Or had to look for some random object in the landscape and hope that someone had something interesting to say about it.  Which one of the NPCs might comment, who knew, and I didn't have any choice over the matter.

Then there is the fact that the Architect's story was so truncated that it made it very confusing and in the end a letdown compared to what I was expecting from having read The Calling.

[Addai]

Dick Delaware wrote...

Look, I like companions. They add a lot - all I'm saying is I want more moments like that, with clear and well thought-out motivations, rather than having an angst battalion tailing me the whole game.

Second, the main plot itself and the whole darkspawn concept is just really bland. You're just  on a quest to kill the Dragon that's leading the orcs - not really that imaginative. A plot involving people, or demons, or anything you can reason with and understand would be better. Pretty much anything but darkspawn is OK.

This is the DA2 board and not the DAO so I'll just comment briefly, but I see the story in Origins pretty differently than you do.  The Blight plot was pretty straightforward, but add to it the political angle and the figure of Loghain, and I think that made it more sophisticated.  And finally, Alistair's character was a major, pleasant surprise to me and probably why I kept playing the game at all.  A male lead who was not the pixelated version of your typical action-hero clone, while simultaneously fitting the comfortable expectations you have of a knight in shining armor...  all I can say is bravo.

And let me add that if Alistair even makes a brief appearance in DA2, Bioware has got my 60 bucks regardless of all my other objections. 

[Dick Delaware]

Addai67 wrote...
This is the DA2 board and not the DAO so I'll just comment briefly, but I see the story in Origins pretty differently than you do.  The Blight plot was pretty straightforward, but add to it the political angle and the figure of Loghain, and I think that made it more sophisticated.  And finally, Alistair's character was a major, pleasant surprise to me and probably why I kept playing the game at all.  A male lead who was not the pixelated version of your typical action-hero clone, while simultaneously fitting the comfortable expectations you have of a knight in shining armor...  all I can say is bravo.

And let me add that if Alistair even makes a brief appearance in DA2, Bioware has got my 60 bucks regardless of all my other objections. 

I understand what you're getting at, and there's some validity to what you're saying. You're saying DA:O is sort of like something like a Romero zombie flick - the movies aren't about zombies, it's about how people respond to crisis. Likewise, Dragon Age isn't about darkspawn, it's about the political problems that occur because of poor decision making and paranoia, such as with Loghain.

Okay, there's some truth to that. But there are times where you're led to believe that there's something more to the darkspawn because of the Chantry's views and the whole Deep Roads section with the Broodmothers. Unfortunately, the game doesn't really go beyond this and as a result I feel that they become overshadowed by the far more interesting demons and qunari, who DO seem like they have interesting motivations and are way different from what you'd expect. 

Likewise, the political plot with Loghain, I think it lacks context. Loghain hates Orlesians, and you're aware that there was a hard-fought war from their tyrannical oppression (stuff like rape, torture and subjugation was commonplace) so Loghain's paranoia seems like it comes from nowhere. I'm aware that a lot of this was expounded upon in books and probably Return to Ostagar, but I never really got a sense of what that war was like and what it cost during the game. You never hear anything about the war from Leliana, Alistair, any nobility, veterans, etc. which is a shame because it may have been in interesting way to put Loghain's actions in a different light. Also, it would have made Ferelden a more interesting place, because then you'd have something to define them by.

But in the game, you never get a good sense of why he hates Orlesians other than a rabid paranoia for no good reason. In fact, I can't remember hearing any information in-game about the war in Orlais other than from Loghain. Some context here would have made that political subplot hit much harder, IMO.

[Dick Delaware]

Saibh wrote...
But this made sense. To me, we're explained that Eamon and the templars bost instilled in him this sense that nothing is more important than the responsibilites set out for you: but he was never given a choice about any of these responsibilities. He explains why he doesn't want to be king, because he thinks he's a poor leader, and doesn't want to be responsible for anyone, but since Ferelden needs a king that is not Loghain, Alistair must do it. He doesn't want to, he has to. Haven't you everb heard of the "reluctant hero"?

Just because he feels he must do something doesn't mean he wants to. This is a real life thing I'm surprised you've never encountered. A sense of obligation does not denote any sort of appetite for it.

That's a good point. During the Circle Tower and the meeting with the Desire Demon who's seduced the Templar, and of course Cullen, you get the sense that Templars hate their lives. Alistair was close to becoming one, so he hates responsibility in general, as a result.

Alright, you've got me.

Saibh wrote...
Well, there's where we're different. For me, it's enough. For you, it's not. And I agree, it's a standard RPG, not a dark fantasy. I don't believe dark fantasy means more sex and violence, and I don't believe the dark elements were really that dark.

Setting is super important for me when it comes to an RPG. One of the unique parts of a  video game is interactivity, so if you can explore a really bizarre, fantastical place that makes you really feel like a stranger in a strange land, it really plays to the strengths of that media.

With Dragon Age, I came in, and I sorta knew what to expect. There were well-done cliches, but cliches nontheless. You've got humans, dwarves, and elves uniting to fight an ancient threat - there's not much that really catches you by surprise. Well, the bit with Connor was pretty cool and you had some INCREDIBLY unexpected choices in game (how often can you kill a kid in games today?! I thought that died with Fallout 2) but other than the awesome Redcliffe - Sacred Ashes questline, there weren't any huge curveballs being thrown.

You know Loghain is going to betray Cailan, you know that there will be a kindly lord of the realm to help you on your journey, and you know that the game is going to end with a dead Archdemon. It's a damn fun ride, but you've been there before.

[Addai]

Dick Delaware wrote...

You know Loghain is going to betray Cailan, you know that there will be a kindly lord of the realm to help you on your journey, and you know that the game is going to end with a dead Archdemon. It's a damn fun ride, but you've been there before.

I pretty much had Loghain figured as the villain, but others I've seen comment said that his betrayal took them by surprise.  Honestly I think this had more to do with his animation than the writing.  He had scary raccoon eyes.  If he looked as good as certain mods make him look, I might have been shocked.

My first pt was as a female city elf.  That origin story was a major "woah!"  Anora turning on me in the Landsmeet was another big "holy crap" moment.

All in all, I felt the characters were really rich and spot-on, especially in context of the romances.  I don't have much gaming experience so it was a matter of coming in with low expectations, but the quality of storytelling was a big surprise to me.

[xxblade890]

Hey Mary will Dragon age 2 include more controlling cool finishing kills (such as cutting heads off)

[javierabegazo]

Seeing as the OP of this thread made an error of making a statement without any research, this thread is outdated and thus to be locked.



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