156 réponses à ce sujet

[Karlojey]

Pedrak wrote...

Remember how long those games were? The lack of full VA was definitely a factor.

A lot of us that played (or are still playing) this are in our late 20s while some might be in their 30s. Not a lot of us has the same amount of time when we were in high school and college to burn through more than 50+ hours of game time. We have jobs, relationships and other curricular activities to attend to now that playing video games can only be squeezed into a 1-3 hour period during weekends (sometimes none).

So having VA may have shortened the game a bit (ME2 can be finished in about 25-30 hours in Insanity, including sidequests) but it delivers the goods much faster that even for those of us that don't have a lot of playing time, can still enjoy it.  

tl;dr - VA may have shortened the game a bit but it did quicken the pace too.

Modifié par Karlojey, 03 septembre 2010 - 01:04 .

[Aradace]

It's only a "shorter" game though if you skip lines of dialog and/or cutscenes. I STILL get at least 30+ hours everytime I run through ME2. (Well, a little less than 30 hours now due to the mining patch lol.) Now, by today's standards, that's a decent length for an RPG. Expecting games (RPGs in particular) to go back to the 60+ hours of gameplay that some of us (myself included) love so much is a little naive. The solace I take in a "shorter" game is replay value...And by "replay value" I mean having the option of a New Game Plus. Truth be told, that would be the ONLY thing that would deter me from buying DA2 and just renting it is if there isnt the OPTION (I have to emphasize this because some players dont realize that just because a NG+ is added, they have the OPTION to NOT use it and start over from scratch if they so choose.) to start a NG+



Which, unfortunately for me in that regard, may delay my purchasing of DA2 as a whole if they dont release that info in any kind of article or whatnot before release date. If that means I have to miss out on "Pre-Order" bonuses because I want to confirm this first, then so be it

[Lord Gremlin]

Karlojey wrote...

Pedrak wrote...

Remember how long those games were? The lack of full VA was definitely a factor.

A lot of us that played (or are still playing) this are in our late 20s while some might be in their 30s. Not a lot of us has the same amount of time when we were in high school and college to burn through more than 50+ hours of game time. We have jobs, relationships and other curricular activities to attend to now that playing video games can only be squeezed into a 1-3 hour period during weekends (sometimes none).

So having VA may have shortened the game a bit (ME2 can be finished in about 25-30 hours in Insanity, including sidequests) but it delivers the goods much faster that even for those of us that don't have a lot of playing time, can still enjoy it.  

tl;dr - VA may have shortened the game a bit but it did quicken the pace too.

That's why I've started playing DAO in the first time on vacation. Normally I wouldn't have enough time - and after a week long pause you no longer remember where that black vial was. However I don't think it's a problem - I mean, nothing wrong with long games. Also, when I've completed the game once I can replay it in small portions and still enjoy it.

[KLUME777]

Aradace wrote...

It's only a "shorter" game though if you skip lines of dialog and/or cutscenes. I STILL get at least 30+ hours everytime I run through ME2. (Well, a little less than 30 hours now due to the mining patch lol.) Now, by today's standards, that's a decent length for an RPG. Expecting games (RPGs in particular) to go back to the 60+ hours of gameplay that some of us (myself included) love so much is a little naive. The solace I take in a "shorter" game is replay value...And by "replay value" I mean having the option of a New Game Plus. Truth be told, that would be the ONLY thing that would deter me from buying DA2 and just renting it is if there isnt the OPTION (I have to emphasize this because some players dont realize that just because a NG+ is added, they have the OPTION to NOT use it and start over from scratch if they so choose.) to start a NG+

Which, unfortunately for me in that regard, may delay my purchasing of DA2 as a whole if they dont release that info in any kind of article or whatnot before release date. If that means I have to miss out on "Pre-Order" bonuses because I want to confirm this first, then so be it

30 hours decent length for RPG!?!?   Are you serious!  My normal length playthrough of DAO goes to about 90hrs+, same goes with KotOR. Fallout 3 is easily over 130 hours. Oblivion - 200hrs.

Dont even get me started with Demons souls......

30 hours is shorter than a GTA game.

[Pedrak]

Interesting article ("Voice vs Choice") about voice acting in RPGs:

http://www.escapistm...Voice-vs-Choice

I don't agree with everything (for example I don't skip voiced dialogues, even by minor NPCs, at least in my first playthrough) but he makes some very valid points.

Modifié par Pedrak, 03 septembre 2010 - 01:25 .

[Karlojey]

Pedrak wrote...
 
...the problem is that full VA costs (a lot of) time and money and therefore -->less dialogue options/roleplay choices AND --> shorter games.

We're looking at giving voice to 2 characters (1 for male Hawke and 1 for female Hawke). Are they really saving that much money by making the PC mute considering they already paid for the voice actor/actress of NPCs?

Personally, less dialogue options/roleplay choices is not always equal to a bad role playing experience. As long as the story is good, the having VA should be worth it. Also, current RPGs aren't exactly short; 25 to 30 hours of gameplay is a lot for a majority of us that can only allot a few hours (few being 1-3 hours) to play games. Old school RPGs (and even DA:O if you're a completionist) that took 50-60+ hours to finish is a stretch nowadays unless of course you're a.) a student, b.) unemployed, c.) the boss or d.) a freelancer. A typical blue collar worker/corporate drone will welcome short (20-30 hours of gameplay short) but immersive RPGs.  

[Karlojey]

KLUME777 wrote...

30 hours decent length for RPG!?!?   Are you serious!  My normal length playthrough of DAO goes to about 90hrs+, same goes with KotOR. Fallout 3 is easily over 130 hours. Oblivion - 200hrs.

Dont even get me started with Demons souls......

30 hours is shorter than a GTA game.

Well good for you. Looks like you have more time to burn on games than the rest of us =)

[Aradace]

KLUME777 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

It's only a "shorter" game though if you skip lines of dialog and/or cutscenes. I STILL get at least 30+ hours everytime I run through ME2. (Well, a little less than 30 hours now due to the mining patch lol.) Now, by today's standards, that's a decent length for an RPG. Expecting games (RPGs in particular) to go back to the 60+ hours of gameplay that some of us (myself included) love so much is a little naive. The solace I take in a "shorter" game is replay value...And by "replay value" I mean having the option of a New Game Plus. Truth be told, that would be the ONLY thing that would deter me from buying DA2 and just renting it is if there isnt the OPTION (I have to emphasize this because some players dont realize that just because a NG+ is added, they have the OPTION to NOT use it and start over from scratch if they so choose.) to start a NG+

Which, unfortunately for me in that regard, may delay my purchasing of DA2 as a whole if they dont release that info in any kind of article or whatnot before release date. If that means I have to miss out on "Pre-Order" bonuses because I want to confirm this first, then so be it

30 hours decent length for RPG!?!?   Are you serious!  My normal length playthrough of DAO goes to about 90hrs+, same goes with KotOR. Fallout 3 is easily over 130 hours. Oblivion - 200hrs.

Dont even get me started with Demons souls......

30 hours is shorter than a GTA game.

How in the 9 hells do you get that much out of Fallout 3? lol....Ive explored every nook and cranny every single bit of DLC and STILL only got 80 hours.  Im not talking about running around and looking at the scenery.....Or playing the minigames for hours on end.....or stopping and staring at that cool looking waterfall for half an hour and admiring the work.....No, Im talking about doing everything that needs doing (side quests included) and then getting to the end of the game.  Doing EVERYTHING in DA:O I only got 60+. 

Beside the point, I also said by "today's standards"...Look at most RPGs (MOST rpgs) on the current market (made within the past 5 years or so).  A NORMAL playthrough runs around 30-40 hours...Less if you speed through, MORE if you are the type to just stop and "enjoy the scenery and admire the work put into the game".  And heaven forbid, if you're getting that many hours out of a game because you are WALKING everywhere....As in, using the "walk" function and not the "run" function.  While I admire folks who can dedicate themselves that much to the "RP" aspect of a game where they "Walk" where appropriate and "Run" where appropriate, I myself cannot.  So in truth, if those are factors anywhere in the equation, they cant justifiably be added into your end game hours IMO.

30 hours is SoP by today's standards of RPGs.  Unless you are RP'ing every....single.....aspect....of the game of course then you will probably get more endgame time than most.  Again, I applaud anyone who can do that but you cant justifiably add that into an "average" time....

[Aradace]

Now before anyone comes off with their list of RPGs that ARE over 30 hours....Here's my list of (within the past 5-6 years or so) RPGs that ARENT: (and I have played ALL of these btw.)

1.) .//hack: Infection
2.).//hack: Mutation
3.).//hack: Outbreak
4.) .//hack: Quarentine (but all of the COMBINED other three in the series DOES net more than 30 hours easily, but STILL doent count)

5.) .//hack G.U. Series (5, 6, AND 7 and same rules apply as the other .//hack games before)
8.) Atlier Iris 1
9.) Atlier Iris 2
10.) Altier Iris 3
11.) Baulder's Gate: Dark Alliance
12.) Baulder's Gate: Dark Alliance 2
13.) Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter
14.) Champions of Norrath
15.) Champions of Norrath: Return to Arms
16.) Digital Devil Saga
17.) Grandia II
18.) Grandia III
19.) Kingdom Hearts
20.) Kingdom Hearts II
21.) Legend of Legaia 2
22.) Lord of the Rings: The Third Age
23.) Magna Carta
24.) Magna Carta 2
25.) MS Saga
26.) Suikoden 3 (Only one in the series that wasnt)
27.) The Bard's Tale
28.) Wild Arms 4
29.) Wild Arms 5
30.) Wild Arms: Alter Code F
31.) Alpha Protocol
32.) Infinite Undiscovery
33.) White Knight Chronicles

And that's just within the past 6 years (a couple were 7 years but I think my point stands)

[Hollingdale]

Karlojey wrote...

Pedrak wrote...
 
...the problem is that full VA costs (a lot of) time and money and therefore -->less dialogue options/roleplay choices AND --> shorter games.

We're looking at giving voice to 2 characters (1 for male Hawke and 1 for female Hawke). Are they really saving that much money by making the PC mute considering they already paid for the voice actor/actress of NPCs?

Personally, less dialogue options/roleplay choices is not always equal to a bad role playing experience. As long as the story is good, the having VA should be worth it. Also, current RPGs aren't exactly short; 25 to 30 hours of gameplay is a lot for a majority of us that can only allot a few hours (few being 1-3 hours) to play games. Old school RPGs (and even DA:O if you're a completionist) that took 50-60+ hours to finish is a stretch nowadays unless of course you're a.) a student, b.) unemployed, c.) the boss or d.) a freelancer. A typical blue collar worker/corporate drone will welcome short (20-30 hours of gameplay short) but immersive RPGs.  

Yes they really are saving that much money by making the PC mute.

Having a voiced PC requires a dialogue wheel kind of system and a presupposed personality for the PC in order for the voice acting not to be awkward thus roleplaying is much more limited than with a mute PC. Furthermore a voiced PC adds an element of realism which in turn (just like with the requirement of a presupposed personality for the PC) requires filmlike cutscenes in order to avoid awkwardness, and theese filmlike cutscenes cost a lot. Nonetheless they are a must have, you can't have a voiced PC who talks without acting.

By having a voiced PC or not is really what determines whether or not a game will be a longer classical rpg with strong roleplaying features or a shorter intense movielike one with limited roleplaying.

[shortie_nt]

I personally don't mind if the PC has a voice or not, in fact I think I slightly prefer it, as long as the VA is good and suits the character I'll be happy - that and that he/she has a British/English accent preferably played by a British/English VA too.



As long as it doesn't turn the PC into another interrogation enthusiast like Shepard it'll be fine, I think the only interaction Shepard ever has is to ask a bloody question.

[rabbitchannel]

Using the dialogue wheel in ME1&2, my Shep said exactly what i expected her to say. There were no unexpected actions. I can easily tell, anyway, the strength of the response between a "no" with a normal font and one colored red.



At this point my only concern is that the voice acting will remind me too much of my Sheps. :/

[rabbitchannel]

Wait, I thought Jennifer Hale was doing LadyHawke? Not up to speed as I've been trying to keep myself in the dark. Also, can't edit on my iPad(muahaha).

[cesia256]

Absolutely agree with OP: a voiced protagonist is limiting no matter how good the VA (and I'm sure whoever Bioware cast is superb). Take that opening conversation with Cailan at Ostagar. Most of my characters responded to the welcome with 'Thank you, your Majesty' (the other options feeling a bit extreme that early in the conversation). The difference is that depending on their origin/personality that phrase was said politely, through gritted teeth, sarcastically, bored, or timidly. While I'm sure Bioware have stretched the dialogue options considerably beyond what they used for ME, there's no way they could offer that number of 'tone' options for every single line of dialogue.



Issues of tone aside, there's the quality of the voice itself: I enjoyed ME1&2 (as femShep: I liked the male voice but NOT the delivery), and think Hale's voice suited a soldier, but as someone else pointed out on the thread, Hawke is supposed to be a (largely) blank slate. Sadly, even with threatening, diplomatic, and sarcastic options, every playthrough and personality style will use the same (probably baritone) register. (I can't imagine they'll let you choose different 'styles' of voice at the initial character creation scene as in DAO: the poor VA and sound engineers would still be stuck in the recording studio come March 2011!)



I'm curious: does anyone think that the preference for a voiced/unvoiced protagonist could be related to people's preference of books over films or vice versa? I love both but probably read more than I watch TV/go to the cinema. And I generally 'hear' characters when I read a book, which my sister considers freakish.... (I'm not suggesting that one is morally or intellectually superior to the other: just idle curiosity!)

[tashatush]

I agree-- I feel that a PC without a voice allows players to be more involved with the individuality of their character. While there are set origins and events in place, the lack of a voice enables players to fill in their creative blanks in regards to the personality of the warden. When I played Origins, it almost felt like I was reading a book, because I formed a voice in my head that I felt fit with her choices and attitude.



For the record, I don't mind the use of voice actors. That's just my two cents on the matter. (:

[Fishy]

Me it's completly the opposite.When i play the main protagonist of Assasin creed i can *become* him .I get into his shoes .Just like when i play Nico Bellic or Shepard . I can *become*  them somewhat .


When i play my character in DA. it's harder for me to become him.He just stare around void or any emotion has the true hero of the game talk(Morrigan/Allistair /Loghain).He just feel like a filler into a premade story.

[saruman31]

Lol. How do you people get so much playtime out of these games? ME2 takes me about 17 hours every time and DAO about 32.

A mute protagonist adds immersion for me but i cant say that i didn't liked ME and to a lesser extent ME2. 

Modifié par saruman31, 05 septembre 2010 - 06:38 .

[WingsandRings]

I find the DAO way of doing it less immersive for a reason most people don't mention. Because they're not voiced, even if the camera is on your PC, there's never a facial expression change. It would be weird to have a change in facial expression even though nothing is coming out of the PCs mouth, but it's also weird to say something, for example, really rude, but your PC just maintains that blank stare. I like that when the PC is voiced, it forces facial expressions.It makes the PC come to life in a big way.

(IOW, I agree with Suprez)

[Heimdall]

Where's everyone getting the idea that Hawke is premade?

The Warden had a preset background and surname, though to DA:O's credit you got a choice of 6.  It was still set

Is it just the voice?

[caridounette]

 I think there will be moments when having a voice will make it more immersive and others when it will be problematic.

I had great moments in DA where choosing the tone of the dialog myself gave the game a great twist. From the top of my head i can remember when my dwarf answered to Leliana ' Oh the Maker is on my side then ? Welcome abord !" when he first met her. At what point she happily gest on your team. Now of course my dwarf was absoluty ironcal in that ( oh great an other loony for my bandwagon ). But an other Warden could have chosen the same dialog at face value.

On the other hand, the dumb emotionless face when intimidating bandits, being cheered at at the proving or discussing with your LI was quite disturbing.

[AlanC9]

saruman31 wrote...

Lol. How do you people get so much playtime out of these games? ME2 takes me about 17 hours every time and DAO about 32. 

Do you go through the dialogues or just escape out of them? Do you do any non-critical dialogues?

[saruman31]

AlanC9 wrote...

saruman31 wrote...

Lol. How do you people get so much playtime out of these games? ME2 takes me about 17 hours every time and DAO about 32. 

Do you go through the dialogues or just escape out of them? Do you do any non-critical dialogues?

I don`t do side quests. I always talk intensively with my companions thou.

[BP20125810]

dragon Age had ,any different options all leading to similar answers. I told Wynne I was a dwarf when she asked me about the fade. She gave me the same answer as my human rogue. Its pretty misleading.

[leggywillow]

This may have been resolved already, but didn't David Gaider confirm in the Q&A yesterday (or the day before, I can't remember) that there would still be around 6 lines of dialogue to choose from, just like in Origins?

I'm happy about voice acting for Hawke.  To me, having a non-voiced protagonist in a cast of voiced characters "limits" your ability to role-play just as much as a voiced one.  Why?  Because the character the PC is interacting with will still react to your statement as if you said it in a particular tone, if that makes any sense.

One complaint is that ME dialogue had that element of surprise.  You never know whether Shepard is going to be snarky or whether he's going to haul off and punch someone.  But I had the same amount (if not more) of "Oh no I didn't mean to say that!" and reloads with DA dialogue.  Sure, my character didn't say it out loud and I could envision her saying a particular sentence with a joking smile but Alistair would still react as if I meant it in a mean way.

Specific example (SPOILERS):
After making Alistair the king and making my human noble female the queen, we had the discussion about children.  Alistair says "It  may not be possible for us to have an heir."  One of the responses was "Having *your* heir maybe."  I took this to be a light teasing option that my character would say to break the tension.  However, I got disapproval points.  Even if she didn't have a voice, my character obviously didn't say it in the way I did in my head.

That's not the only example, but it's the best one I can think of right now.  So while not having a voiced PC may give the impression of more role-playing freedom, I feel like it's almost equally limited since the writers still obviously have a tone in mind for the PC and a reaction in mind for others.  Actually expressing that tone via a voice actor doesn't seem like a bad thing to me.