538 réponses à ce sujet

[Gatt9]

Has Bioware ever let me down?

Yes.

Mass Effect 2.  Was not an RPG,  was nothing like Mass Effect,  it was a very poor shooter with little internal consistency. 

Judging from what I've read so far today,  I'm guessing they're going to do a Mass Effect 2 to Dragon Age,  which would be a real shame,  that'll finish off Bioware as a studio of note,  leaving us with only Blizzard.

[iLoveDragons]

I remember when everyone got pissed off about Mass Effect 2, and how it would ruin the entire world because there was no inventory and there was too much shooting and not enough dice rolling and ect. ect. How did that one turn out anyway? Bioware has never let me down before, ever. If Dragon Age 2 does for Dragon Age what Mass Effect 2 did for Mass Effect, then I can't wait to play the best RPG of 2011.

[Ecael]

Gatt9 wrote...

Has Bioware ever let me down?

Yes.

Mass Effect 2.  Was not an RPG,  was nothing like Mass Effect,  it was a very poor shooter with little internal consistency. 

Judging from what I've read so far today,  I'm guessing they're going to do a Mass Effect 2 to Dragon Age,  which would be a real shame,  that'll finish off Bioware as a studio of note,  leaving us with only Blizzard.

According to the standards of those on the forums, Blizzard has never made any "real" RPGs.

[KEMKA]

grieferbastard wrote...

That's not speculation, that's exactly what has been shown. It's moving further from the sandbox concept, making your own story with your own character in this living/breathing/dynamic world, and more towards playing a very specific role in a very specific, pre-generated story. A, to B, to get to C. I have no doubt that just like ME2 it will be a great story - that's just not something that interests me.

DA:O could also fit that description though? Regardless of what origin you choose you are always the last grey warden (along with alistair ofcourse!) and have to follow the same routine to stop the blight. Admittedly we do have fewer options as we can only play a human character, but so far we don't know anything about whether we have a fixed background etc. We only know we are a refugee of the blight, they may give us choices as to who we were before being at this point. I have no idea of course, I'm just saying that we don't know for sure yet!

[Glottisthedriver]

I was worried about the changes they made for ME 2 as well, but I thought it turned out awesome, no game is perfect, but ME 2 was a great, great game (except for the Talimancers).



That said Awakening was basically a slap in the face. Being asked to pay above the industry standard price for an expansion ($40 instead of $30) for a product that felt rushed, and would have been pretty meh even if working as intended, would have been disappointing. Releasing said product with numerous game breaking bugs, then waiting until after you have released multiple DLC's to fix them was a massive, massive let down.

[Nitroxit]

yay for Dragon age 2



Remember: "Man invented language to satisfy his deep need to complain."

[Imryll]

Still haven't made it through the NWN official campaign--which I bought on release--so yes. I've also not played through RtO or Awakening, despite having purchased them. I loved DA:O on first playthrough, but it doesn't seem to have worn well for me.

[Warheadz]

Bioware has brought the best gaming experiences i've had in the past 3 years, and i think many of you love their games too (especially since you are here at the forums), so even if something sounds bad right now, lets try to refrain ourselves from insulting a game none of us has seen yet.

Nothing wrong with being concerned about the game but i've seen many people go "****ing great, Bioware, you ruined everything!"

[Valmy]

grieferbastard wrote...
I'm absolutely with you on it being a difference in preference and not some inherent superiority of one game style over another.

The real issue is that BioWare does great stories; amazing stories. A big part of that is doing a great job at creating a living, breathing, engrossing world to set it it. Then they tend to have a lot of classical RPG elements in the game - yet at the end of the day, in order to keep with the story, the environment tends to be pretty restrictive. You have to go from point A to point B to get to C.

The killer is that this attracts game fans like myself, who at heart really want a sandbox game set in a living, breathing, engrossing world and with a great story moving in the background. We are willing to put up with a certain amount of 'A to B to C' and limits on choices to get the story part, but there's a limit to it.

ME/ME2 is a great example of where this bites gamers like me. The sandbox elements and classical RPG elements got cut to make a more cinematic experience. I've played ME2 on a friends system and watched a lot of it on YouTube - which is about as much as it interests me. While it's a great story I have no interest in playing it nor could I justify spending money on it. I can absolutely appreciate where it's a far more cinematic experience than ME - just that it went the opposite direction of what my tastes in games are.

DA2 is going the same direction. That's not speculation, that's exactly what has been shown. It's moving further from the sandbox concept, making your own story with your own character in this living/breathing/dynamic world, and more towards playing a very specific role in a very specific, pre-generated story. A, to B, to get to C. I have no doubt that just like ME2 it will be a great story - that's just not something that interests me.

The truth is that BioWare has always been more about telling a specific story than creating an environment for people to create their own, just that sometimes they make a game that skirts the line enough that it draws in some of us from the other side of the fence - then when they start focusing in on what are, to be fair, their core strengths, the aspects that attract the rest of us get cut.

So DA:O gets put on my shelf next to ME, and the empty space where DA2 won't be put is right next to the empty space where ME2 will never sit. I've dropped around $200 on DA:O, including DLC and other franchise products. I admit I have no real interest in any new DA:O DLC suddenly. It's a bit of a buzz-kill.

So, yeah. People are going to complain. Some rationally, some not. I can understand the business decisions behind it (and the writers) - it just irks a bit to find that a product you enjoy is shifting its market focus a bit and you're not included anymore.

Great post!  Thanks for reflective and thoughful response.

Ok first let me get this out of the way.  I am an old school RPGer.  I started playing CRPGs in the mid 80s with Wizardry Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord and The Bard's Tale and the Ultima series and of course an embarrasing amount of hours playing PnP games.  I recognize that the days of people catering to me and what I think of when I think of RPGs is long past.  I am mostly here now for the story and to be entertained.

I totally get the desire for a living breathing world.  That is total old school Ultima and something I have not really seen a game like that for 15 years.  Well maybe the Elder Scrolls does it SORTA but I never really cared for them that much since you do not have a party.  Solo action based games are not really my thing though I did enjoy Morrowind for awhile.

But Bioware has never provided this.  BG, the first one, was the only game that approached that level and for that reason (despite the essentially silent and non-developed NPCs) my favorite Bioware game.  I found BG2 dissappointing with how limiting it was but have since come to peace with the fact that this is just how it goes.  Dragon Age was not like that at all.  It was just as limiting and constrained exploration wise as any Bioware game.  So yeah I am totally with you that we now tolerate the lack of, or at least illusion of, choice to get to the next plot point.

But I guess here is my question: in  my opinion Bioware never really provided what you are asking for.  I fail to see how ME1, ME2, DA, NWN, JE, KOTOR, and BG2 are different AT ALL in this respect.  They are all exactly the same:  constrained linear environments with lots of disequests.  I have played all of these games and I simply ask that you provide me with this mythical cutting of the sand boxy elements in favor of cinematic experiences.  Especially when it comes to ME2.  ME2 was about as predictably Bioware as you can get and I recognize its shortcomings and glory in its triumphs but fail to see how it is different in those respects than any Bioware game since BG2.  It certainly is almost exactly like ME1 in essentially the way it plays.  The only difference is the entirely actiony vehicle parts were removed and I would have liked the planetary exploration parts if there was anything to discover besides minerals.   ME1 was really a frustrating and boring failure on that part.  Planets to explore oooh interesting...oh wait nothing to discover that was not already marked on my map (ok I think there might have been a couple things to discover...maybe I could count them on one hand)

I have played ME2 and ME1 multiple times so I feel like I know a little bit of what I am talking about.  In no sense at all is ME1 more or less cinematic than ME2.  That is simply untrue.  They both have shooting parts through linear environments with dialog in stations and a ship in between.  They play exactly the same with the exception of the MAKO parts which were, IMO, the worst parts of ME1 and were entirely actiony and not RPG even in pretense.

Now I loved DA with its origin stories and the characters and the plot but in no sense was it a sandbox game in a living breathing world.  It was fighitng through linear environments with dialog in between.  I assure you that DA2 will be just as much of a living breathing world as the first one was.  I was actually pretty disappointed with how constraining DA was since it sorta looked a bit like BG at first...at first...but I have learned to appreciate what it is.

I guess I get that sometimes Bioware makes a game that kind of resembles an old school open world party based game, well ok there is only one game series that was like that and it was called Ultima.

I get that you would like for Bioware games to be like that.  But they never have been they have all been pretty much in Bioware's own specific niche.  I get that they do not make games some of you like.  What I do not get are two things:

1. The shock and anger that Bioware continues to make the same games they have consistently made for 10 years.

2. The bizarre and inaccurate nostalgia that somehow games like ME1 and DA were different and some sort of hardcore RPGs with all these amazing choices and now that awesomeness has somehow been ruined.  Now when I question people about this they tend to admit that yes ME1 was not actually like what they claim they want but it was marginally closer than ME2.  Which is rather bizarre to claim ME1 was one of you favorite games evah but ME2 sucks simply because one was marginally closer to what you wanted but not realy that close at all.

So  what I do understand, and have perfect sympathy with, is the frustration that Bioware does not make more open world kinds of games.  What I do not understand is the sense that they did provide this with titles, where they clearly did not IMO, and the anger at this non-existant thing being cruely torn away.

Modifié par Valmy, 09 juillet 2010 - 04:18 .

[Layn]

iLoveDragons wrote...

I remember when everyone got pissed off about Mass Effect 2, and how it would ruin the entire world because there was no inventory and there was too much shooting and not enough dice rolling and ect. ect. How did that one turn out anyway?

to me? disappointing. all throughout the game i got frustrated at the things they changed to turn the game more into a shooter.
i still liked the game. just not as much as i could have

[Valmy]

Gatt9 wrote...
Mass Effect 2.  Was not an RPG,  was nothing like Mass Effect,  it was a very poor shooter with little internal consistency. 

What a joke.  It was exactly like Mass Effect.  Name one element that was 'nothing like Mass Effect' please.

[Valmy]

Crrash wrote...
to me? disappointing. all throughout the game i got frustrated at the things they changed to turn the game more into a shooter.
i still liked the game. just not as much as i could have

Eh the first game was a broken poorly designed shooter and they made a less broken shooter.

But yeah, I still liked it because it was good for what it was.

[bjdbwea]

iLoveDragons wrote...

I remember when everyone got pissed off about Mass Effect 2, and how it would ruin the entire world because there was no inventory and there was too much shooting and not enough dice rolling and ect. ect. How did that one turn out anyway?

Exactly as predicted, unfortunately. By the way, there was never any concerns about "not enough dice rolling", because ME 1 didn't have that either. It did however have a decent RPG system and most importantly a fantastic story. ME 2 had neither. DA had a good RPG system and a nice story. If DA 2 gets the ME 2 treatment, it might turn out even worse than ME 2.

[Barquiel]

iLoveDragons wrote...

I remember when everyone got pissed off about Mass Effect 2, and how it would ruin the entire world because there was no inventory and there was too much shooting and not enough dice rolling and ect. ect. How did that one turn out anyway?

I was disappointed...

[MassFrost]

Nope, BioWare has yet to let me down and I'm sure Dragon Age 2 will be every bit as amazing as anything else they've put their name on. It's honestly hilarious how many people are in an uproar over DA2 considering.. Y'know, that we don't know anything about it yet. I guess I put too much faith in the people of the BioWare Social Network thinking they could go any length of time without finding something to whine about.

[JamieCOTC]

Turning KOTOR into a F*cking MMO. (Biggest. Gaming. Disappointment. EVER).

Ending of Awakening (w/ the news of a new character in DA2, this makes Awakening the most pathetic end to a character I've ever played).

Conversation system in Awakening. (Hated it. Wanted to kill it ... with fire ... as the saying goes).

No girl on Asari love in ME2 (minor quibble, but still disappointing).

NOT taking up KOTOR2. (Not really their fault, but still disappointing).

Less Story and RPG elements in ME2. (ME2 is a good game and I love it, but it could have been a fantastic game and it isn't).



BW has done a lot of things that I *like* too. That's another post.

[Valmy]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Turning KOTOR into a F*cking MMO. (Biggest. Gaming. Disappointment. EVER).
Ending of Awakening (w/ the news of a new character in DA2, this makes Awakening the most pathetic end to a character I've ever played).
Conversation system in Awakening. (Hated it. Wanted to kill it ... with fire ... as the saying goes).
No girl on Asari love in ME2 (minor quibble, but still disappointing).
NOT taking up KOTOR2. (Not really their fault, but still disappointing).
Less Story and RPG elements in ME2. (ME2 is a good game and I love it, but it could have been a fantastic game and it isn't).

BW has done a lot of things that I *like* too. That's another post.

Yeah the KOTOR story was great and I understood Bioware wanting to move on and do their own IPs...but now turning it into an MMO?!  NOOOOOOOO

Awakenings failed where Bioware games should never fail: character, dialog and plot.  That is what makes Bioware games good and hopefully that was just a blip.

Totally agree on ME2 though I thought the character developement made up for the relatively weak story.  The story was at least tense if a tad undeveloped and uninteresting.  But I thought it was up to snuff with the rest of Bioware's offerings.

[Valmy]

bjdbwea wrote...
a decent RPG system

ME1?!  In what sense?

[bjdbwea]

Valmy wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
a decent RPG system

ME1?!  In what sense?

In every sense. When I say "decent", I mean "decent". Nothing more, nothing less.

This is too funny by the way, it's all unfolding like it did with ME 2. Enjoy the participation from the developers while it lasts, it will stop as soon as the game's released.

[Darth_Trethon]

David Gaider wrote...

kaispan wrote...
I just don't get how people can act so personally offended. Just because it's not what you were expecting/asked Santa for doesn't mean it's going to be bad.

It might mean that, to them, if they really really wanted what they were expecting.

The part where people get personally offended is just them being personally invested. It's a good thing. Well... except for the part where we shot their dog. But in our defense, he looked like a moose, I swear.

At least wait til we have some real information.

That would be appreciated, but the lack of real information on a topic has never stopped a good rant on the internet before. Wild assumptions exist to be disproven, not supported.

Thanks for the kind words, kaispan.

Hahahahaha......best post EVER!!!

The ONLY argument I see from the complainers is always the same one.....they literally hate good games. If it was up to them games would have never evolved since tetris. Great changes all around from DAO to DA2. There wasn't a single announced change that was in any way negative and all of them will only greatly improve the game.

[Clover Rider]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

kaispan wrote...
I just don't get how people can act so personally offended. Just because it's not what you were expecting/asked Santa for doesn't mean it's going to be bad.

It might mean that, to them, if they really really wanted what they were expecting.

The part where people get personally offended is just them being personally invested. It's a good thing. Well... except for the part where we shot their dog. But in our defense, he looked like a moose, I swear.

At least wait til we have some real information.

That would be appreciated, but the lack of real information on a topic has never stopped a good rant on the internet before. Wild assumptions exist to be disproven, not supported.

Thanks for the kind words, kaispan.

Hahahahaha......best post EVER!!!

The ONLY argument I see from the complainers is always the same one.....they literally hate good games. If it was up to them games would have never evolved since tetris. Great changes all around from DAO to DA2. There wasn't a single announced change that was in any way negative and all of them will only greatly improve the game.

Tell that to the Liara fans I bet BioWare will soon tell us she will not be in DA2 .

[Valmy]

bjdbwea wrote...
In every sense. When I say "decent", I mean "decent". Nothing more, nothing less.

The skills were unbalanced.  Some you pretty much had to max out, several did the exact same thing, and you got so many skill points you could pretty much specialize in everything.

And the skills did not even make much of a difference since the gear system was so borked you could pretty much make yourself invincible.

There were no attributes, only skills, and no new gear only marginal upgrades to what you already had.  At least ME2 had new gear, not alot of new gear, but some.

The system in ME2 was simpler but actually was more balanced and better designed IMO.

Modifié par Valmy, 09 juillet 2010 - 05:07 .

[sanadawarrior]

bjdbwea wrote...

Valmy wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
a decent RPG system

ME1?!  In what sense?

In every sense. When I say "decent", I mean "decent". Nothing more, nothing less.

This is too funny by the way, it's all unfolding like it did with ME 2. Enjoy the participation from the developers while it lasts, it will stop as soon as the game's released.

I will enjoy it, also I will be enjoying the game while you are on this or some other forum complaining about it because it isn't this or it isn't that.

[Clover Rider]

Man ME1 fanboy/girls now want to take it out on the Dragon Age fans how sad.