538 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

I am actually a DA fan too, and it's sad to see the same thing happen to another great franchise.

[Sirsmirkalot]

The system in ME2 was simpler but actually was more balanced and better designed IMO.

Because :
a) There were so few skills (and most of them were ammo for gods sake) that you ended up with all of them maxed (maybe one was one block short of maxing out) if you liked it or not. Only fools would call that customization.

Enemies scaled too well. Even on insanity.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 09 juillet 2010 - 05:13 .

[sanadawarrior]

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

The system in ME2 was simpler but actually was more balanced and better designed IMO.

Because :
a) There were so few skills (and most of them were ammo for gods sake) that you ended up with all of them maxed (maybe one was one block short of maxing out) if you liked it or not. Only fools would call that customization.

Enemies scaled too well. Even on insanity.

Then you would be a fool for calling ME 1 skills customizable too since you could pretty much max all of those as well.

[harrykim306]

Bioware Let Me Down with that god awfull Mass Effect 2 compared to the first it was unplayabled played though once than uninstalled thats how bad I found it.



Compared to the first it was like some one went in with a knife and butchered it sencless just for the sake of making it appear a wider audience.



Shame on you Bioware I Hope I Cant expect the same treatment for Dragon Age 2.

[Korva]

Neverwinter Nights. Mass Effect. Awakenings. Yep.

But the rest of their games do kick ass. And even if Bioware eventually dies or goes totally "mainstream", they'll always hold a special place in my heart and memory, and on my harddrive, for the Baldur's Gate series alone. One of the big classics, that.

[sanadawarrior]

harrykim306 wrote...

Bioware Let Me Down with that god awfull Mass Effect 2 compared to the first it was unplayabled played though once than uninstalled thats how bad I found it.

Compared to the first it was like some one went in with a knife and butchered it sencless just for the sake of making it appear a wider audience.

Shame on you Bioware I Hope I Cant expect the same treatment for Dragon Age 2.

If it was unplayable how did you manage to play it through once? I don't think that word means what you think it means.

[Sirsmirkalot]

sanadawarrior wrote...

Then you would be a fool for calling ME 1 skills customizable too since you could pretty much max all of those as well.

Last time I checked I made no reference to Mass Effect 1. I merely stated why the system of Mass Effect 2 was bad.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 09 juillet 2010 - 05:24 .

[sanadawarrior]

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

sanadawarrior wrote...

Then you would be a fool for calling ME 1 skills customizable too since you could pretty much max all of those as well.

Last time I checked I made no reference to Mass Effect 1. I merely stated why the system of Mass Effect 2 was bad.

My apologies then.

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Nope, never.

[Darth Drago]

Mass Effect 2 was a huge let down for me. I wont go into details since it would fill a few pages and bore you to death anyways, not like anyone cares anyways. Lets just say they changed to much and focused the game to the general shooter crowd over the actual fans of the game franchise to make a quick buck.

From what I’m seeing about Dragon Age 2 I’m not liking it much already. The charm about DAO was the fact that you could play as a human, dwarf and elf with several origins stories that all tied in to the events in the main game. With the announcement of only being able to play as a human only that just seems like a huge step backwards for any fantasy RPG. So much for replay value.

The little bit with “you must gather the deadliest of allies”, “with an entirely new cinematic experience” and “dynamic new combat mechanics” sounds like Mass Effect 2 to me. And concerns me a lot since I really hated a lot of what they changed from ME1 to make ME2. Will Dragon Age 2 be just as drastically changed from Origins and Awakenings? I don’t want a Mass Effect 2 version of Dragon Age.

“Embark upon an all-new adventure that takes place across an entire decade and shapes itself around every decision you make.” So instead of going after the shooter crowd its Fable? Not a bad thing if its done right. Feeling a bit ill now since ME2 wasn’t done right with the shooter research they claimed they did… Cant wait to hear about all the bugs that will likely plague this game with all those decisions.

The adding a voice to you character though concerns me since its probably the reason why we cant play as other races even if they reused the same voice actors for them. It probably will go in with the “cinematic experience” but at what cost? ME2 had to much “cinematic experience” to be really enjoyable as a game. Depending on how this works I could like it or hate it.

With BioWare/EA’s track record lately with Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age Awakenings including a lot of the downloads for ME2 and DAO and all the technical issues people are still having that are not yet fixed. I’m not really looking forward to this sequel. “Fool me once shame on you (ME2). Fool me twice shame on me (Awakenings).”

I’ll try and keep an open mind and wait until more information comes out but its going to take a lot to get me back as a loyal BioWare supporter again that will blindly buy your products. Sorry.

[grieferbastard]

-k-a-t-e- wrote...
DA:O
could also fit that description though? Regardless of what origin you
choose you are always the last grey warden (along with alistair
ofcourse!) and have to follow the same routine to stop the blight.
Admittedly we do have fewer options as we can only play a human
character, but so far we don't know anything about whether we have a
fixed background etc. We only know we are a refugee of the blight, they
may give us choices as to who we were before being at this point. I have
no idea of course, I'm just saying that we don't know for sure yet!

You know I had this conversation with a friend about this - we actually play the DA tabletop RPG together ( more or less; we bought the initial set from Green Ronin and had to house rule up ourselves 90% of the game as they don't intend to release even what exists in DA:O for at least 2 years but that's another story) about just what the difference is. WHY neither of us has any draw to DA2.

DA:O was always right on the edge of being a story we were being told as opposed to a story we were helping create. If you get down to semantics any game can just about be reduced to 'Go from A to B in order to unlock C'. Yet there is a fundamental difference in how it feels.

Here's an analogy the one of the girls I game with came up with. Suppose your parents get you a Barbie Doll. You can dress her up, change her hair, etc. Yet what you want is a Skipper doll - even if you dress Barbie up like Skipper, she's not really Skipper, is she? She's Barbie dressed as Skipper.

BioWare is refining the DA franchise down around the story - which isn't bad. It's what they do very well. The problem is that for some of us it's not about the script - the story in book form. It's wanting to play in the world, the environment, but make our own story. DA:O allowed that to a degree. Having a static character must inherently equate to a more static story. You might get better dialog around that characters choices but it's still THAT character. Not YOUR character.  The Witcher, I understand, is a great game. I have 0 interest in it however for the same reason.

Valmy wrote...
Great post!  Thanks for reflective and thoughful response.

Ok first let me get this out of the way.  I am an old school RPGer.  I started playing CRPGs in the mid 80s with Wizardry Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord and The Bard's Tale and the Ultima series and of course an embarrasing amount of hours playing PnP games.  I recognize that the days of people catering to me and what I think of when I think of RPGs is long past.  I am mostly here now for the story and to be entertained.

I totally get the desire for a living breathing world.  That is total old school Ultima and something I have not really seen a game like that for 15 years.  Well maybe the Elder Scrolls does it SORTA but I never really cared for them that much since you do not have a party.  Solo action based games are not really my thing though I did enjoy Morrowind for awhile.

But Bioware has never provided this.  BG, the first one, was the only game that approached that level and for that reason (despite the essentially silent and non-developed NPCs) my favorite Bioware game.  I found BG2 dissappointing with how limiting it was but have since come to peace with the fact that this is just how it goes.  Dragon Age was not like that at all.  It was just as limiting and constrained exploration wise as any Bioware game.  So yeah I am totally with you that we now tolerate the lack of, or at least illusion of, choice to get to the next plot point.

But I guess here is my question: in  my opinion Bioware never really provided what you are asking for.  I fail to see how ME1, ME2, DA, NWN, JE, KOTOR, and BG2 are different AT ALL in this respect.  They are all exactly the same:  constrained linear environments with lots of disequests.  I have played all of these games and I simply ask that you provide me with this mythical cutting of the sand boxy elements in favor of cinematic experiences.  Especially when it comes to ME2.  ME2 was about as predictably Bioware as you can get and I recognize its shortcomings and glory in its triumphs but fail to see how it is different in those respects than any Bioware game since BG2.  It certainly is almost exactly like ME1 in essentially the way it plays.  The only difference is the entirely actiony vehicle parts were removed and I would have liked the planetary exploration parts if there was anything to discover besides minerals.   ME1 was really a frustrating and boring failure on that part.  Planets to explore oooh interesting...oh wait nothing to discover that was not already marked on my map (ok I think there might have been a couple things to discover...maybe I could count them on one hand)

I have played ME2 and ME1 multiple times so I feel like I know a little bit of what I am talking about.  In no sense at all is ME1 more or less cinematic than ME2.  That is simply untrue.  They both have shooting parts through linear environments with dialog in stations and a ship in between.  They play exactly the same with the exception of the MAKO parts which were, IMO, the worst parts of ME1 and were entirely actiony and not RPG even in pretense.

Now I loved DA with its origin stories and the characters and the plot but in no sense was it a sandbox game in a living breathing world.  It was fighitng through linear environments with dialog in between.  I assure you that DA2 will be just as much of a living breathing world as the first one was.  I was actually pretty disappointed with how constraining DA was since it sorta looked a bit like BG at first...at first...but I have learned to appreciate what it is.

I guess I get that sometimes Bioware makes a game that kind of resembles an old school open world party based game, well ok there is only one game series that was like that and it was called Ultima.

I get that you would like for Bioware games to be like that.  But they never have been they have all been pretty much in Bioware's own specific niche.  I get that they do not make games some of you like.  What I do not get are two things:

1. The shock and anger that Bioware continues to make the same games they have consistently made for 10 years.

2. The bizarre and inaccurate nostalgia that somehow games like ME1 and DA were different and some sort of hardcore RPGs with all these amazing choices and now that awesomeness has somehow been ruined.  Now when I question people about this they tend to admit that yes ME1 was not actually like what they claim they want but it was marginally closer than ME2.  Which is rather bizarre to claim ME1 was one of you favorite games evah but ME2 sucks simply because one was marginally closer to what you wanted but not realy that close at all.

So  what I do understand, and have perfect sympathy with, is the frustration that Bioware does not make more open world kinds of games.  What I do not understand is the sense that they did provide this with titles, where they clearly did not IMO, and the anger at this non-existant thing being cruely torn away.

See, here's the thing though. KotOR, ME1, NWN and DA:O all had more of a focus on open environment and more variety in just WHO the PC was. Also they shared a common focus on some of the more 'old school RPG' elements of the game. All of them then went and shaved those aspects to create a more cinematic, story-centric game. Which I am not nor have ever said is a bad thing.

I don't disagree about BioWare - this is how they have always handled games and it is, IMO, one of their core strengths. I get why it's something they focus on. I can appreciate where the begining of any story is always going to feel far less structured, especially where the nature of the protagonist is concerned.

This is also why you see this every time BioWare releases a sequel though. It's our own fault, I acknowledge that. There's this hope that THIS time the sequel will focus more on the old-school aspects, world-development and more player control of the environment and story - not less. Besides, DA:O is a great game. I have no complaint about the time and money I've invested on it.

Yet here is some food for thought - to this day there are remakes of almost every single Ultima game. Almost 10 years after release people still play and mod for Morrowind, even Oblivion, 6 years after the fact. Five years from now, mark my words, there will be a fan-made Morrowind remake mod in whatever the coolest new mod-friendly RPG is.

Can you say the same of ME2? ME2 is better cinema, a richer story in a LOT of ways. You can't even begin to compare the dialog in DA:O and, say, Oblivion - even Ultima VII. Yet these worlds, DA, ME, will absolutely wither and die as soon as content stops flowing from BioWare/EA. Why? They are like reading a book or watching a movie. You can enjoy the characters in them and appreciate a lot about it but those connections are with the people and can't really be made with the environment - the game world so to speak. Thus, when the characters stop being animated the emotional attachment starts to fade and gets replaced with a new one.

ME1 and ME2 have better stories than Morrowind or Ultima VII - drastically better. Better gameworlds - more fertile ground for any story to grow and play out. Yet Morrowind and Ultima VII, even 10 and 15 years old the day ME2 hit the shelves, will still be getting remade and replayed long after the ME franchise has faded.

That sucks. I want to give BioWare my money. If I'm going to be playing a game I'd rather be playing in Thedas, or the ME Galaxy. I like how BioWare treats their customers, I like the quality of their products.

I want to be excited about DA2. When ME2 was coming out I was literally half way done buying my preorder of the delux version when I thought 'well, lemme take a peek at a review. Just in case' at which point I saw the changes that had been made and just went...... bleh. I've played it sense, watched youtube videos of it, it's a great story. Just generates 0 interest in me to play as a game.

THAT is the problem. I want to want to play DA2. I want to be excited about it. Unfortunately for me, while I can appreciate and understand why it's going the direction it's going, this format has 0 appeal for me.

Which is my problem, not BioWares. I'm sure it will be a great commercial success. I've got no doubt BioWare will have every reason to be proud of it. Not every game has to be a decade-spanning benchmark for the genre. I guess I'm just still waiting for another game that isn't just 'great', but INCREDIBLE when it comes to RPGs. I'd just rather it not be another 10 years

[Sylvius the Mad]

Has BioWare Let you Down Yet?

Yes.  Mass Effect is junk.

If they're going to continue to call their games rolplaying games, they need to allow roleplaying in them.

We have yet to see if DA2 will.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 09 juillet 2010 - 06:46 .

[Darth Drago]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Has BioWare Let you Down Yet?

Yes.  Mass Effect is junk.

If they're going to continue to call their games rolplaying games, they need to allow roleplaying in them.

We have yet to see if DA2 will.

Bet your just thrilled to tears to hear that the main character in Dragon Age 2 is now voiced…
If i recall correctly you were opposed to the idea.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Darth Drago wrote...

Bet your just thrilled to tears to hear that the main character in Dragon Age 2 is now voiced…

If it's mandatory, I'm livid.

[BomimoDK]

bjdbwea wrote...

I am actually a DA fan too, and it's sad to see the same thing happen to another great franchise.

You guys are really over paranoid. you know basically nothing about this apart from race, last name and origin. get yourselves together. It's a Fantasy RPG! no way in hell they'll diabloize it. won't work.

[joriandrake]

Valmy wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
a decent RPG system

ME1?!  In what sense?

in the sense being more decent than that of ME2

[joriandrake]

*double

Modifié par joriandrake, 09 juillet 2010 - 08:59 .

[joriandrake]

iNixiRir wrote...

JasonPogo wrote...

For Bioware to actually change something they announce about a game from our whining. I mean if you look at any board on here it is all fire and brimstone. Made me think just how bad out ****ing would have to get before they started taking us seriously.

Taking you seriously?! Hahaha, don't make me laugh. You think Bioware actually gives a crap about people like you? Bioware aint stupid; they know damn well how they want their games and these pathetic cries for attention mean nothing for them. In the end, 95% of these people are still gonna buy AND enjoy it.

"Can't be a Dwarf or an Elf? **** Bioware, **** this game, **** change!"
- Ohhh, shiny review! -
- '9.5 - Bioware proves once again that they know what their doing'. -
"Pre-orders limited edition"

people will be more like:

"Can't be a Dwarf or an Elf? **** Bioware, **** this game, **** change!"
-
Ohhh, shiny review! -
- '9.5 - Bioware proves once again that they
know what their doing'. -
"I still don't like what they did with the game, but lets go and torrent it"



in these years complains from fans directly affect the income and existence of developers, because only those who are really satisfied are likely to actually buy a product, everyone else usually turns to piracy


It is sad but it is reality

Isabelle Mortello wrote...

Jestina wrote...

A
lot of EA's peeps got fired, so they can be laughing in the
unemployment line..though I don't think they did enough firing yet.

Why do you people blame EA for BIOWARE'S Decisions.

Power
of "being used to" I guess, and because it iusually is true.

Modifié par joriandrake, 09 juillet 2010 - 10:18 .

[Jaron Oberyn]

What's wrong with how they're approaching DA:2? Change is inevitable people. As games evolve, so do the genres. Bioware has an innovative, uniquely designed RPG genre. The way they handled Mass Effect 1 and 2 was excellent. It's nice to see that we'll be getting a character that is central to the franchise. Not some random grey warden.



-Polite

[Rhjh20]

Meltdowns are part of the pre-game fun!

Modifié par Rhjh20, 09 juillet 2010 - 10:18 .

[kraidy1117]

joriandrake wrote...

Valmy wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...
a decent RPG system

ME1?!  In what sense?

in the sense being more decent than that of ME2

The only good thing about ME was the plot and characters. The gameplay was a mess and unbalanced. Go cry somewhere else that DA2 (which does not even have that much info)is gonig to be like ME2. If it is, then that's ok because ME2 cwas better then ME and a fantastic game.

[kraidy1117]

The games that let me down where ME, Neverwinter nights and Jade Empire.