12 réponses à ce sujet

[raz3r]

Easy question, will there be a toolset for the PC version of Dragon Age 2 like Origins? I am worried about the "Mass-Effect-Like" thing, that's why I asked. A Bioware response will be much appreciated.

[David Gaider]

Atakuma wrote...
Oh, I know it's not a guarantee or anything, I was just disputing the idea that mike laidlaw confirmed that it wasn't happening.

Correct. We've said we'll look into it after work on the game is done. If someone wants to be pessimistic and say "oh it'll never happen because they want to sell more DLC" then so be it. Can't argue with pessimism, especially ones laced with conspiracy theories.

[David Gaider]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...
Isn't "we'll see once the game is out" the same thing that was said before DAO?  I know Bethesda said something similar before Fallout 3.

That was indeed the plan for DAO... and had DAO released in March like was originally planned, that is what would have happened. DAO would have been released and a number of months later the toolset would have come out. With the delay in release the toolset came out at the same time as the game.

All we're doing here is not making promises. We don't know what it would take to update the DAO toolset, or even if that's realistic. We'll investigate it further once we have the time. If someone really wants to blame the lack of a firm promise on DLC, then they can go ahead-- but I really think it has much more to do with the fact that this is only something that affects PC users (ie. how much effort will this take vs. how many people will actually use it).

I mean, if you want to get all conspiracy about it, I'd definitely go with "BioWare hates the PC" than slamming on DLC. That'd be much more convincing, I think.

[David Gaider]

slimgrin wrote...
Please go the extra mile Bioware and support pc users by releasing a toolset.

Provided we have the time and ability, of course we will. We're well aware that PC users want a toolset.

[David Gaider]

FieryDove wrote...
I disagree. There is a lot of awesome content out there that still has people playing the game, telling others about the game/extra content etc. It adds lifespan to most any game and increases sales.

I would tend to agree. There's no proof that a toolset impacts DLC sales much if at all. The one major factor that seems to affect DLC sales is the number of people that still have the game installed and are playing it-- if anything, my judgment would be that a toolset increases that number.

Of course, this only affects PC users-- but as we all know they're the center of the universe, so that should really go without saying.

Modifié par David Gaider, 10 décembre 2010 - 10:45 .

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
So taking all of that into account, it's no wonder it's a popular request.   Unless we're aware of the potential development implications of updating the toolset - and we aren't - then it's impossible to see a negative consequences of getting one.

I didn't say there were negative consequences, did I? Just that a PC toolset doesn't affect the console users at all. So long as people asking for it realize this doesn't affect "everyone"-- it affects one out of the three supported platforms, and is decidedly "extra" content that can be solely used by them.

Does this mean we won't do it? Of course not. A "maybe" might indeed mean a "no", but we're not prepared to answer right now either way... and if we really meant "no" don't you think we would simply say so? Or did someone get the impression that we're suddenly afraid of fan backlash, since we've evidently kept everything else that's unpopular here under wraps?

Even if we don't release a toolset update, that doesn't mean DA2 won't be modded. A toolset will certainly go a long way to helping that, though, and adds a lot of longevity for the PC users. Definite value. I would argue against those who believe they're entitled to it, though. I can't imagine what the reaction would be around here if a bunch of console users demanded content and support solely for their use-- why? Because they're console users! Heh. That would be epic, mind you.

At any rate, I only came here to agree with the person who said it hadn't been decided. You don't need to convince me that there's benefit to having a toolset, that's for sure. It's not really a question of us thinking it would go unused.

Modifié par David Gaider, 10 décembre 2010 - 10:58 .

[David Gaider]

tmp7704 wrote...
Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

Yes, we're very sorry that we devoted more resources to the console version than we did with Origins, rather than less. Clearly the PC users should always receive more than console users. Our mistake, and we shall rush to rectify that for you immediately.

[John Epler]

tmp7704 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

so allowing the console version's quality to stand side to side with the pc version without being clearly the inferior version this time around, a support solely for our use? (neutral tone of voice, not agressive)  

Well, wouldn't you consider improvements introduced solely to console version of the game (given it's about removing shortcomings the PC version didn't have) ... exactly that, a support solely for the console users?

That's not supposed to be aggressive comment on my part either btw, i've just found it funny that the "theoretical outrageous scenario" Mr.Gaider brought up already is the reality and hey, oddly enough the sky on the forums isn't falling because of it (much)

I think the difference, though, is that in the current scenario, the PC experience was at X while the console experience was at X - Z. We're spending the resources to remove Z from the equation so both the PC and console experiences are at X. The toolset, on the other hand, is Y, so if you dedicate resources to Y, you're now turning it into PC = X + Y and Console = X.

Having said that, I'm not really getting into this discussion, but that's my (fairly simplistic) view of the difference.

And now, intermission!

[John Epler]

tmp7704 wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I think the difference, though, is that in the current scenario, the PC experience was at X while the console experience was at X - Z. We're spending the resources to remove Z from the equation so both the PC and console experiences are at X. The toolset, on the other hand, is Y, so if you dedicate resources to Y, you're now turning it into PC = X + Y and Console = X.

I suppose it depends on how you look at it -- i.e. i viewed it not as much as removing Z from equation but rather adding the Z to side where it was lacking. So effectively that's C (state of game for consoles) + Z compared to P (state of game for pc) + Y ... i.e. both involve adding something just to one item. Pretty much the same operation as far as math goes.

Anyway like i already tried to explain that wasn't intended as a "zomg BioWare how dare you do anything for the console users, /wriiiiiiists" remark, but given that makes much easier target for snark probably best if i just leave it at that

Math! My one weakness.

But no, I wasn't accusing you of doomsaying. Just clarifying! Or attempting to, anyways.

[John Epler]

Because I just realized how easily I'm going to be misunderstood - I don't mean that you're taking away Z in an actual sense of 'we're removing something from the PC version', but rather in the mathematical sense - as in you're adding Z to the console side of the equation to remove it from the mathematical equation entirely.

[John Epler]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

wouldn't removing a negative be equivalent to adding a positive?

Exactly!

I'm bad at math, and apparently I'm currently bad at English, too. But that's what I meant.

[David Gaider]

Drasanil wrote...
Misleading post is misleading. There's a difference between allocating resources to bring the Console version up to parity with the PC version, which is fair and focussing resources on the consoles versions to the exlucsion of PC considerations. You've reduced the number of talents and such because it's not "feasible" to use more than a few on a console, you've removed the Isometric view so you could focus extra resources on console-centric stuff, not to mention the new art direction.

That's a lot of assumptions, there. You don't think we made these design decisions because we thought they were better? They could only be made to suit the console version of the game?

I refuse to cater to the belief expressed by some that anything done to improve the console version of the game is automatically a net negative for the PC version. If you don't like it, fine. But don't go assuming that considerations for the PC are being "excluded".

It feels like Bioware used to care, now you get snippy with PC gamers when they ask for things like a toolset or regular patches that actually work! I remember the awesome support and community involvement you guys had with NWN. The game got patched up to version 1.69, now we'll be lucky if we get a patch 1.05 and that it actually works, I hope so because right now I'm stuck playing on 1.03 since the 1.04 patch rendered the game unplayable. Do you remember the CEP? I do, I discovered it because you guys were actively advertising it on your site, now days you'd probably write it off as self-entitled PC Gamer hofflenosh, am I right? 

It's not just some wierd PC gamer sense of entitlement, but many PC gamers remember the awesome community and support we recieved from you guys with NWN, hell even NWN2 despite the fact you weren't developping it, and expect better from you guys than some snide comments about "PC Elitists" and "Entitlements/Birthrights".

Sigh. I'm not even going to get into this argument. I already said that we'd consider the toolset. What I object to, and what I responded to, is the implication that we owe PC users some kind of apology or compensation for improving the console experience of the game, or the assumption that the PC version will automatically suffer for it.

Hopefully when you see the PC version or play it, you'll like it. Can't really say more than that.

[David Gaider]

deuce985 wrote...
David, I've read a lot of your posting in PC threads and you seem very annoyed in most of them.

I think you may be reading tone in there, but sometimes I do get annoyed. Especially when gamers treat their preferences like armed camps, where everyone else is the enemy-- and then deny that they're doing so, or suggest it's justified. That's annoying.

I just want you to know, the entire install base doesn't have that elitest attitude, as I'm sure you already know...

Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that people have good reasons for wanting what they want. A toolset update, for instance, would be awesome. I use mods myself (I think Civilization IV and Victoria 2 lived were played far more with mods than without, on my computer). It's when people start suggesting that they're entitled to a toolset because they're PC users that I object. If someone doesn't want to buy the game unless it has one, that's perfectly legitimate-- people could have all sorts of reasons why they will or won't like a game, many far more petty-- but that doesn't stop some people from translating it into the notion they're owed one or that us saying "maybe" is as good as a dismissal or a "slap in the face".

It would be great to see one but I could also see why Bioware wouldn't release one. It fits such a small % of even PC gamers. You may feel neglected if it isn't implemented but you have to see it through Bioware's point of view. They're a business and they have things like deadlines too...

It's not a small percentage, but it is only a portion of the PC users... which itself is a portion of the overall user base. We'll definitely do it if we can. Some of the mods for DAO were really brilliant, and it'd be a shame to force the community to work it out on their own (which they would eventually, I'm sure, to one degree or another).

It wouldn't be like they're breaking a promise, they never said we'd have one, just they'd look into after the game is complete. Which is more than you can say for 95% of PC games today. Most are just console ports and they are left sloppy, patchless. So be thankful Bioware is creating a experience for two audiences...almost nobody does that anymore. I know I appreciate it.

With any luck it won't feel like a port on either end, though evidently some people have already made up their mind on that front.

Thanks Bioware, I know you'll make a great game=]

I certainly hope so.