243 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I doubt the toolset has a significant impact on sales. From what BioWare has told us, the average player only went through the game once. For NWN, the vast majority of players never touched mods.

I don't think it has much impact directly, but i wouldn't discount the effect mods may have on the world of mouth advertising for the game -- people showing off cool (and/or ridiculous) things they got for their modded game to their friends can make additional customers/players out of people who otherwise wouldn't bother.

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
So taking all of that into account, it's no wonder it's a popular request.   Unless we're aware of the potential development implications of updating the toolset - and we aren't - then it's impossible to see a negative consequences of getting one.

I didn't say there were negative consequences, did I? Just that a PC toolset doesn't affect the console users at all. So long as people asking for it realize this doesn't affect "everyone"-- it affects one out of the three supported platforms, and is decidedly "extra" content that can be solely used by them.

Does this mean we won't do it? Of course not. A "maybe" might indeed mean a "no", but we're not prepared to answer right now either way... and if we really meant "no" don't you think we would simply say so? Or did someone get the impression that we're suddenly afraid of fan backlash, since we've evidently kept everything else that's unpopular here under wraps?

Even if we don't release a toolset update, that doesn't mean DA2 won't be modded. A toolset will certainly go a long way to helping that, though, and adds a lot of longevity for the PC users. Definite value. I would argue against those who believe they're entitled to it, though. I can't imagine what the reaction would be around here if a bunch of console users demanded content and support solely for their use-- why? Because they're console users! Heh. That would be epic, mind you.

At any rate, I only came here to agree with the person who said it hadn't been decided. You don't need to convince me that there's benefit to having a toolset, that's for sure. It's not really a question of us thinking it would go unused.

Modifié par David Gaider, 10 décembre 2010 - 10:58 .

[MerinTB]

MerinTB wrote...
More seriously, I don't think it's a conspiracy for a company to decide that releasing part of what they use to make games and add-ons for the game might be a bad business decision.  While I want the tools released for pretty much any game (community mods are often awesome) I wouldn't actually begrudge a company for deciding it's a bad move fiscally.  Personally I think it'd be, logically,  a financially responsible move to NOT provide virtually endless free content for your customers when you hope to provide your own additional content for a price.

I'd say it was the wrong decision, and that you hope the quality of your additional content will at least be equal to the free community content, and that customers will purchase it for said quality...

My personal beliefs underlined, what I think would be logical for a business to decide is bolded.

You know, thought I'd requote myself in context to clear up that I don't think providing toolsets (or even free content) is a bad business decision.
I think many webcomics are more successful because, with all the content free, they develop followings who gladly buy said content even when it's available for free.  Same with The Guild and Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog.

All I was trying to point out was that David calling said business decisions (not to release a toolset because they wanted to make more money off of DLC) being speculated by forum members as being conspiracy theories... as what could be legitimately taken as sound business practices done out in the open shouldn't fit the definition of a conspiracy.

I think the Aurora toolset is probably a HUGE factor in NWN's popularity and sales.

[upsettingshorts]

*shrug*

I was just describing my sense of the situation.

[phaonica]

The availablility of a toolset, for me, was *the* deciding factor that made me buy and try DA in the first place. I was interested in the game, but without the toolset, I probably wouldn't have given it a chance.

[Maria Caliban]

MerinTB wrote...


I think the Aurora toolset is probably a HUGE factor in NWN's popularity and sales.

Yes, but you could actually make new areas and entire campaigns with with Aurora toolset if you were mildly technically proficient. Instead of hundreds of new quests and campaigns we got with Aurora, the DA toolset got us hundreds of new hairstyles and armor mods. Oh, and nudity/sex scene mods.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

David Gaider wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...
So taking all of that into account, it's no wonder it's a popular request.   Unless we're aware of the potential development implications of updating the toolset - and we aren't - then it's impossible to see a negative consequences of getting one.

I didn't say there were negative consequences, did I? Just that a PC toolset doesn't affect the console users at all. So long as people asking for it realize this doesn't affect "everyone"-- it affects one out of the three supported platforms, and is decidedly "extra" content that can be solely used by them.

Does this mean we won't do it? Of course not. A "maybe" might indeed mean a "no", but we're not prepared to answer right now either way... and if we really meant "no" don't you think we would simply say so? Or did someone get the impression that we're suddenly afraid of fan backlash, since we've evidently kept everything else that's unpopular here under wraps?

Even if we don't release a toolset update, that doesn't mean DA2 won't be modded. A toolset will certainly go a long way to helping that, though, and adds a lot of longevity for the PC users. Definite value. I would argue against those who believe they're entitled to it, though. I can't imagine what the reaction would be around here if a bunch of console users demanded content and support solely for their use-- why? Because they're console users! Heh. That would be epic, mind you.

At any rate, I only came here to agree with the person who said it hadn't been decided. You don't need to convince me that there's benefit to having a toolset, that's for sure. It's not really a question of us thinking it would go unused.

Think of it as a sorry to the pc users who aren't high on the hot rod samurai makeover.

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

 I can't imagine what the reaction would be around here if a bunch of console users demanded content and support solely for their use-- why? Because they're console users! Heh. That would be epic, mind you.

Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

[David Gaider]

tmp7704 wrote...
Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

Yes, we're very sorry that we devoted more resources to the console version than we did with Origins, rather than less. Clearly the PC users should always receive more than console users. Our mistake, and we shall rush to rectify that for you immediately.

[nightcobra]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

 I can't imagine what the reaction would be around here if a bunch of console users demanded content and support solely for their use-- why? Because they're console users! Heh. That would be epic, mind you.

Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

so allowing the console version's quality to stand side to side with the pc version without being clearly the inferior version this time around, a support solely for our use? (neutral tone of voice, not agressive)  

edit: ninja'ed by gaider....who would have thunk?

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:12 .

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, we're very sorry that we devoted more resources to the console version than we did with Origins, rather than less. Clearly the PC users should always receive more than console users. Our mistake, and we shall rush to rectify that for you immediately.

That's a really nice strawman; reminded me of that "surprise me" option in the Pearl with bunch of them dancing around a fish.

[FieryDove]

David Gaider wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

Yes, we're very sorry that we devoted more resources to the console version than we did with Origins, rather than less. Clearly the PC users should always receive more than console users. Our mistake, and we shall rush to rectify that for you immediately.

Ouch, I don't think that's what he meant David...

For the record I would love to see the toolset get updated for awakening/DA2 but I do not require it/demand it/feel entitled to it. Sorry if I have made that impression.

[Maria Caliban]

I don't think you can equate a request for the console experience to be as good as the PC experience with a request for a toolset.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

 I can't imagine what the reaction would be around here if a bunch of console users demanded content and support solely for their use-- why? Because they're console users! Heh. That would be epic, mind you.

Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

so allowing the console version's quality to stand side to side with the pc version without being clearly the inferior version this time around, a support solely for our use? (neutral tone of voice, not agressive)  

edit: ninja'ed by gaider....who would have thunk?

Right because now the PC version will likely be inferior and not play to its full capabilities, or have enough of the classic CPRG feel for it at the expense of making the console versions allow one to push a button and something awesome happens.

[MerinTB]

David Gaider wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

Yes, we're very sorry that we devoted more resources to the console version than we did with Origins, rather than less. Clearly the PC users should always receive more than console users. Our mistake, and we shall rush to rectify that for you immediately.

And again, Mr. Gaider is on a roll.

Is there an anti-toxin to your venom?

[tmp7704]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

so allowing the console version's quality to stand side to side with the pc version without being clearly the inferior version this time around, a support solely for our use? (neutral tone of voice, not agressive)  

Well, wouldn't you consider improvements introduced solely to console version of the game (given it's about removing shortcomings the PC version didn't have) ... exactly that, a support solely for the console users?

That's not supposed to be aggressive comment on my part either btw, i've just found it funny that the "theoretical outrageous scenario" Mr.Gaider brought up already is the reality and hey, oddly enough the sky on the forums isn't falling because of it (much)

[nightcobra]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

 I can't imagine what the reaction would be around here if a bunch of console users demanded content and support solely for their use-- why? Because they're console users! Heh. That would be epic, mind you.

Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

so allowing the console version's quality to stand side to side with the pc version without being clearly the inferior version this time around, a support solely for our use? (neutral tone of voice, not agressive)  

edit: ninja'ed by gaider....who would have thunk?

Right because now the PC version will likely be inferior and not play to its full capabilities, or have enough of the classic CPRG feel for it at the expense of making the console versions allow one to push a button and something awesome happens.

with a keyboard you have lots more buttons to work with so....more awesome things to happen?

[Dave of Canada]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Right because now the PC version will likely be inferior and not play to its full capabilities, or have enough of the classic CPRG feel for it at the expense of making the console versions allow one to push a button and something awesome happens.

Right. Because PC users want to push a button and nothing to happen.

Sweeping generalizations are wonderful, aren't they?

[ENolan]

David Gaider wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Given the developers already dedicated large resources to improve the console version of the game (something they proudly point out in the interviews to date) doesn't that count as "support solely for their use" provided already, and pretty much directly in response to feedback given by these console users?

Yes, we're very sorry that we devoted more resources to the console version than we did with Origins, rather than less. Clearly the PC users should always receive more than console users. Our mistake, and we shall rush to rectify that for you immediately.

Now there's a response anyone can appreciate. I can understand some people's opinions on the changes made but I can't understand what makes some people seem entitled to more service dedicated solely to their interests.






Unless it's unlocked save files, then I can really see why,

[Gill Kaiser]

Some mods, particularly the Dragon Age Redesigned mod, added so much to my game. Modders add value and longevity to your product for free. Modding is part of what makes PC gaming great. I'd be extremely sad to not see that repeated with DA2.

With the new facegen system, I doubt modders will be able to make their own tools to change them very easily.

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't think you can equate a request for the console experience to be as good as the PC experience with a request for a toolset.

I think you can when the comparison is made from angle Mr.Gaider provided -- expense of development resources which benefit only one platform.

[John Epler]

tmp7704 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

so allowing the console version's quality to stand side to side with the pc version without being clearly the inferior version this time around, a support solely for our use? (neutral tone of voice, not agressive)  

Well, wouldn't you consider improvements introduced solely to console version of the game (given it's about removing shortcomings the PC version didn't have) ... exactly that, a support solely for the console users?

That's not supposed to be aggressive comment on my part either btw, i've just found it funny that the "theoretical outrageous scenario" Mr.Gaider brought up already is the reality and hey, oddly enough the sky on the forums isn't falling because of it (much)

I think the difference, though, is that in the current scenario, the PC experience was at X while the console experience was at X - Z. We're spending the resources to remove Z from the equation so both the PC and console experiences are at X. The toolset, on the other hand, is Y, so if you dedicate resources to Y, you're now turning it into PC = X + Y and Console = X.

Having said that, I'm not really getting into this discussion, but that's my (fairly simplistic) view of the difference.

And now, intermission!

[slimgrin]

The Director wrote...

but I can't understand what makes some people seem entitled to more service dedicated solely to their interests.

It has nothing to do with entitlement, but which platform you are playing on.

1. some devs make proper ports to the pc, some don't. Obviously, we'll choose the games that do it right. Crazy, I know.

2. PC is a more versatile platform , and supports many more options. So we're grateful when devs consider that. 

I didn't buy a pc to play games made for the console. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:24 .

[Maria Caliban]

tmp7704 wrote...

Well, wouldn't you consider improvements introduced solely to console version of the game (given it's about removing shortcomings the PC version didn't have) ... exactly that, a support solely for the console users?

That's not supposed to be aggressive comment on my part either btw, i've just found it funny that the "theoretical outrageous scenario" Mr.Gaider brought up already is the reality and hey, oddly enough the sky on the forums isn't falling because of it (much)

You have a point. PC users haven't done a tremendous amount of b*tching about the attention BioWare has given the console version of the game this time around.

[tmp7704]

JohnEpler wrote...

I think the difference, though, is that in the current scenario, the PC experience was at X while the console experience was at X - Z. We're spending the resources to remove Z from the equation so both the PC and console experiences are at X. The toolset, on the other hand, is Y, so if you dedicate resources to Y, you're now turning it into PC = X + Y and Console = X.

I suppose it depends on how you look at it -- i.e. i viewed it not as much as removing Z from equation but rather adding the Z to side where it was lacking. So effectively that's C (state of game for consoles) + Z compared to P (state of game for pc) + Y ... i.e. both involve adding something just to one item. Pretty much the same operation as far as math goes.

Anyway like i already tried to explain that wasn't intended as a "zomg BioWare how dare you do anything for the console users, /wriiiiiiists" remark, but given that makes much easier target for snark probably best if i just leave it at that