243 réponses à ce sujet

[John Epler]

tmp7704 wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

I think the difference, though, is that in the current scenario, the PC experience was at X while the console experience was at X - Z. We're spending the resources to remove Z from the equation so both the PC and console experiences are at X. The toolset, on the other hand, is Y, so if you dedicate resources to Y, you're now turning it into PC = X + Y and Console = X.

I suppose it depends on how you look at it -- i.e. i viewed it not as much as removing Z from equation but rather adding the Z to side where it was lacking. So effectively that's C (state of game for consoles) + Z compared to P (state of game for pc) + Y ... i.e. both involve adding something just to one item. Pretty much the same operation as far as math goes.

Anyway like i already tried to explain that wasn't intended as a "zomg BioWare how dare you do anything for the console users, /wriiiiiiists" remark, but given that makes much easier target for snark probably best if i just leave it at that

Math! My one weakness.

But no, I wasn't accusing you of doomsaying. Just clarifying! Or attempting to, anyways.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

JohnEpler wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

so allowing the console version's quality to stand side to side with the pc version without being clearly the inferior version this time around, a support solely for our use? (neutral tone of voice, not agressive)  

Well, wouldn't you consider improvements introduced solely to console version of the game (given it's about removing shortcomings the PC version didn't have) ... exactly that, a support solely for the console users?

That's not supposed to be aggressive comment on my part either btw, i've just found it funny that the "theoretical outrageous scenario" Mr.Gaider brought up already is the reality and hey, oddly enough the sky on the forums isn't falling because of it (much)

I think the difference, though, is that in the current scenario, the PC experience was at X while the console experience was at X - Z. We're spending the resources to remove Z from the equation so both the PC and console experiences are at X. The toolset, on the other hand, is Y, so if you dedicate resources to Y, you're now turning it into PC = X + Y and Console = X.

Having said that, I'm not really getting into this discussion, but that's my (fairly simplistic) view of the difference.

And now, intermission!

I think the problem with that statement, if I'm understanding it correctly, is that you're spending resources to remove something as opposed to adding it. I understand why it's hard to add a Toolset to console users, but I see no reason as to why to remove it from PC users. There's certain things PC players expect from their games that console players don't: Dedicated servers, server browsing, non intrusive DRM, and support for the modding community.

I don't want to get into a console wars argument, but I hope you can see the problem with the reality that PC gaming has had those things chipped away at piece by piece by the large publishers, all while they try to tack on features that end up being inferior like p2p hosting, matchmaking, and exorbitant DLC pricing, (let alone the concept of DLC).

David Gaider wrote...


I would tend to agree. There's no proof that a toolset impacts DLC sales much if at all. The one major factor that seems to affect DLC sales is the number of people that still have the game installed and are playing it-- if anything, my judgment would be that a toolset increases that number.

Of course, this only affects PC users-- but as we all know they're the center of the universe, so that should really go without saying. 

I think PC users feel legitimately victimized by major companies. As I said above, major publishers and developers have consistently been chipping away at established features of PC gaming over the last 5 years, in favor of cheaper, inferior alternatives.

I hope you can understand why we feel that way.

[John Epler]

Because I just realized how easily I'm going to be misunderstood - I don't mean that you're taking away Z in an actual sense of 'we're removing something from the PC version', but rather in the mathematical sense - as in you're adding Z to the console side of the equation to remove it from the mathematical equation entirely.

[nightcobra]

@TonyTheBossDanza123

wouldn't removing a negative be equivalent to adding a positive?

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:41 .

[John Epler]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

wouldn't removing a negative be equivalent to adding a positive?

Exactly!

I'm bad at math, and apparently I'm currently bad at English, too. But that's what I meant.

[Maria Caliban]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I think PC users feel legitimately victimized by major companies.

I feel more victimized by having to always be online while playing AC 2 than I do by a lack of toolset. I think when you bring up feelings of victimization in regards to utterly optional features that aren't part of the game proper, you make PC users concerns look less legitimate.

[slimgrin]

Enough math already.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

@TonyTheBossDanza123

wouldn't removing a negative be equivalent to adding a positive?

My understanding is that
PC=X= (Game+Toolset(Z))
Console=X-Z, as in Game + Toolset - Toolset.

JohnEpler wrote...

Because I just realized how easily I'm going to be misunderstood - I don't mean that you're taking away Z in an actual sense of 'we're removing something from the PC version', but rather in the mathematical sense - as in you're adding Z to the console side of the equation to remove it from the mathematical equation entirely.

Yea I'm confused, but I think my point still stands.

Maria Caliban wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I think PC users feel legitimately victimized by major companies.

I feel more victimized by having to always be online while playing AC 2 than I do by a lack of toolset. I think when you bring up feelings of victimization in regards to utterly optional features that aren't part of the game proper, you make PC users concerns look less legitimate. 

Oh don't get me wrong, that's a whole nother level of them taking advantage of us, but I think it testifies to the slippery slope. But you're right, that's why I mentioned DRM. Intrusive DRM is, indeed, a bigger problem than lack of a toolset.

[SeanMurphy2]

I am a pc gamer. But I have no problems with them dedicating resources to improving the console version. If the console version is arguably substandard. Then it affects the reputation of Bioware and the Dragon Age ip.



The console players still pay their money and with excitement loads up the game hoping to enjoy it. Bioware would want to give them a quality experience.



Regarding the toolset. I don't think it is as time critical as getting the main game finished and as good as possible before release. Maybe they have got some tools people doing some exploratory work on it. But I don't think they can afford to focus too much on it at the moment.

[AmstradHero]

Okay, so as much as I like the idea of a toolset for DA2, what do PC players "lose" as a result of not having one? PC players won't get tweaks to the base game, and they won't get additional playable content in the form of user made mods.

In the first case, this might mean that PC players don't get nude mods, higher res textures, overpowered items and the like.
In the second, they "miss out" on having new adventures within Dragon Age 2. Additional adventure mods are still being made for DAO, and will likely continue to be released for quite some time after DA2 is released.

I was under the impression that the "Glorious PC Master Race" didn't care about "flashy graphics" and "visceral combat" and all the other "console-dumbing-down aspects of DA2" and still wanted to stay with DAO because it was "more of an RPG". Why are they desperate to have the cosmetic addition mods to DA2, or unwilling to stick with DAO for additional adventure content?

PC players aren't entitled to a toolset. If PC players don't get a toolset, it won't be the end of the world, and definitely not a sign that BioWare "have abandoned their roots for the lure of consoles and money". Platform wars are idiocy and make me despair for the gaming industry in general because of how they depict all people who play games as petulant arguing children.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[Ryzaki]

Right you forget about all the mods that fixed bugs and made the game better? The ones that helped make it closer to the game the Devs wanted it to be? Or are you too busy focusing on nudy mods and items.

Even with all the time DAO had there was still horrible bugs (Alistair thinking he's king, dead people speaking, certain decisions not being taken into account, unbeatable quests, missing items, so on and so forth). THe toolset has gone a great deal in fixing such things. So to me it is a very important tool for the game.

That saidit's not a "Oh if there's no toolset the game will be horrible." but the toolset went a long way to vastly improving my enjoyment of origins.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

AmstradHero wrote...

PC players aren't entitled to a toolset. 

I have a definitive problem with this statement. Toolsets are a defining factor of PC gaming, the ability to mod the game, add content, and fix bugs that the devs miss is perhaps the largest attractor to PC gaming over a console, at least in terms of pro's v con's. 

Saying PC gamers aren't entitled to a toolset is akin to saying console players aren't entitled to Updates, or DLC.

Ryzaki wrote...

Right you forget about all the mods that fixed bugs and made the game better? The ones that helped make it closer to the game the Devs wanted it to be? Or are you too busy focusing on nudy mods and items.

I'm hesitant to call it this soon, but I'm cautious that he might be a troll. His post seems to reek of it through his mannerisms.

Modifié par TonyTheBossDanza123, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[slimgrin]

AmstradHero wrote...

PC players aren't entitled to a toolset. If PC players don't get a toolset, it won't be the end of the world, and definitely not a sign that BioWare "have abandoned their roots for the lure of consoles and money". Platform wars are idiocy and make me despair for the gaming industry in general because of how they depict all people who play games as petulant arguing children.

Why would console users care about this? Does it affect them in the very least? No. Your game stays the same.

Now who is acting entitled here?

[Ryzaki]

Uh Amstrad is a PC DAO owner.

[upsettingshorts]

AmstradHero wrote...

Platform wars are idiocy and make me despair for the gaming industry in general because of how they depict all people who play games as petulant arguing children.

Platform fanboys are like homer fans in sports, except worse - since at least in the latter example the teams they support actually engage each other in some form of direct contest.

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I have a definitive problem with this statement. Toolsets are a defining factor of PC gaming, the ability to mod the game, add content, and fix bugs that the devs miss is perhaps the largest attractor to PC gaming over a console, at least in terms of pro's v con's.

How many games have mod tools, SDKs, toolsets, etc - created for and released to the general public? 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:02 .

[tmp7704]

AmstradHero wrote...

Why are they desperate to have the cosmetic addition mods to DA2, or unwilling to stick with DAO for additional adventure content?

Personally i like the idea of Toolset being available so i can tweak things that potentially irk me and as such detract from enjoying the game to the fullest. It doesn't have anything to do with DAO.

[Cutlasskiwi]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I have a definitive problem with this statement. Toolsets are a defining factor of PC gaming, the ability to mod the game, add content, and fix bugs that the devs miss is perhaps the largest attractor to PC gaming over a console, at least in terms of pro's v con's. 

Saying PC gamers aren't entitled to a toolset is akin to saying console players aren't entitled to Updates, or DLC.

I have a problem with this statement. It's not the same as console players not being untiled to updates. Not if they have to work extra to make the toolset compatible for us average Joes and so on. It's a really nice bonus if a toolset is added but I see no reason why it should be a requirement. 
Mind you this is just my opinion.

[Ryzaki]

I just want the toolset in the event of another Alistair thinking he's king even when he's not incident.

[slimgrin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Uh Amstrad is a PC DAO owner.

No matter what he owns, he makes a selfish argument.

[ErichHartmann]

Only a small percentage of PC games have received a toolset in the history of gaming. However it would be great if the DAO toolset was updated for us sometime after release.

[slimgrin]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Platform wars are idiocy and make me despair for the gaming industry in general because of how they depict all people who play games as petulant arguing children.

Platform fanboys are like homer fans in sports, except worse - since at least in the latter example the teams they support actually engage each other in some form of direct contest.

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I have a definitive problem with this statement. Toolsets are a defining factor of PC gaming, the ability to mod the game, add content, and fix bugs that the devs miss is perhaps the largest attractor to PC gaming over a console, at least in terms of pro's v con's.

How many games have mod tools, SDKs, toolsets, etc - created for and released to the general public? 

So now you're arguing against a toolset? Or are you just arguing for the sake of ....arguing ( gasp! I know you've never done that!)

[Ziggeh]

slimgrin wrote...

So now you're arguing against a toolset? Or are you just arguing for the sake of ....arguing ( gasp! I know you've never done that!)

He's arguing against bad arguments, which that one was!

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...

Platform wars are idiocy and make me despair for the gaming industry in general because of how they depict all people who play games as petulant arguing children.

Platform fanboys are like homer fans in sports, except worse - since at least in the latter example the teams they support actually engage each other in some form of direct contest.

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I have a definitive problem with this statement. Toolsets are a defining factor of PC gaming, the ability to mod the game, add content, and fix bugs that the devs miss is perhaps the largest attractor to PC gaming over a console, at least in terms of pro's v con's.

How many games have mod tools, SDKs, toolsets, etc - created for and released to the general public? 

Not enough now a days, but off the top of my head:

Mount and Blade/Warband
TF2
L4D1/2
CSS
Killing Floor
Fallout 3/New Vegas
Stalker I believe has one
BF2
SC1/2
WC3
WoW

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

So now you're arguing against a toolset? Or are you just arguing for the sake of ....arguing ( gasp! I know you've never done that!)

Hmm... that's a deceptively good question.  Can one draw the line between being pedantic and critcizing what one sees as a bad argument in the hopes of eliciting a better one?  More importantly, am I capable of perceiving that line?  My guesses are, in order:  Yes, no.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:13 .

[Ziggeh]

WoW has a toolset?