243 réponses à ce sujet

[Ortaya Alevli]

As the story goes, a sinner dies and is sent to Hell. There he is welcome by an usher of sorts, who proceeds to showing him around. As they keep walking, the man notices that there are no fiends around to keep watch in Hell, contrary to the popular belief back in the living world.

"Why are there no guards," he asks, "I thought there are supposed to be fiends here to watch over the pits."

"There is no need," the usher replies, "all of the prisoners are human. Each time someone tries to climb up, others never waste a second to pull them back in."

I can think of a few reasons for being concerned about a toolset release for PC, but I simply can't understand the "PC shouldn't get a toolset since console users will get the shaft" argument. If only it were possible to create a toolset for consoles as well. But it's very unbecoming of civilized people to wish for no toolset at all only because it's not technically realistic to release one for consoles, too.

[Dave of Canada]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

WoW has a toolset?

Nope. Any tampering with the game files also gets you banned.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:13 .

[Atakuma]

ninja'd

Modifié par Atakuma, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:14 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
But it's very unbecoming of civilized people to wish for no toolset at all only because it's not technically realistic to release one for consoles, too.

Is anyone that isn't being a Devil's advocate actually arguing this aside from the people who actually have to devote resources to making it happen?

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Only a small percentage of PC games have received a toolset in the history of gaming. However it would be great if the DAO toolset was updated for us sometime after release.

I don't think that's quite right, though the percentage has been gradually decreasing over the last few years.

Yellow Words wrote...



I have a problem with this statement. It's not the same as console players not being untiled to updates. Not if they have to work extra to make the toolset compatible for us average Joes and so on. It's a really nice bonus if a toolset is added but I see no reason why it should be a requirement. 
Mind you this is just my opinion.

Again it's just something that PC users came to expect, it came to be a standard feature, and then with the rise of console gaming, and the inability to support toolsets on consoles, it slowly dwindled away. I'm of the opinion that if somethings good, there's no reason not to do it, as opposed to the argument that there needs to be a reason to do something before you do it.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

WoW has a toolset?

I was referring to mod support, since the varying mods in WoW allow you to fix problems that the dev's don't have time to, or don't want to.

[upsettingshorts]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
 I'm of the opinion that if somethings good, there's no reason not to do it, as opposed to the argument that there needs to be a reason to do something before you do it.

This is a general point and not solely related to the subject of toolsets, but that is a very easy position to take on subjects or issues where you don't actually have to be the one who does it. 

[Ortaya Alevli]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
But it's very unbecoming of civilized people to wish for no toolset at all only because it's not technically realistic to release one for consoles, too.

Is anyone that isn't being a Devil's advocate actually arguing this aside from the people who actually have to devote resources to making it happen?

That's the impression I got from a couple people in this thread, yes.

[Atakuma]

Toolsets have never been a "standard" feature for PC games, that is silly talk.

Modifié par Atakuma, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[tmp7704]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

WoW has a toolset?

It has support for very extensive 3rd party scripting, which allows to do lot of things we can't exactly do in DA -- like completely changing most if not all of the UI.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
 I'm of the opinion that if somethings good, there's no reason not to do it, as opposed to the argument that there needs to be a reason to do something before you do it.

This is a general point and not solely related to the subject of toolsets, but that is a very easy position to take on subjects or issues where you don't actually have to be the one who does it. 

I'm not quite sure I get where you're going with this. At least I think I do, but it's kind of pointless.

Atakuma wrote...

Toolsets have never been a "standard" feature for PC games, that is silly talk.

I can do nothing but disagree.

[Dave of Canada]

Off the top of my head, I can count on one hand the games I know that have toolsets.

[Apollo Starflare]

Being able to mod a game and said game coming with a toolset are not the same thing. Releasing a toolset for the PC version isn't a requirement of Bioware, although it would be a welcome inclusion. You can't just expect such a thing to come with every PC game because some in the past have had it, there are any number of factors that could vary between the games in question which cause one or the other not to be able to support a toolset release for general public consumption. It certainly isn't a 'standard' feature.



I do hope there is a toolset update though, and I'm a console player who can only hope to get a better PC one day.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Off the top of my head, I can count on one hand the games I know that have toolsets.

I posted more than that on the last page, and that's only in recent years.

[Ziggeh]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...
WoW has a toolset?

I was referring to mod support, since the varying mods in WoW allow you to fix problems that the dev's don't have time to, or don't want to.

Fair enough, but I'd say that's a fairly loose definition of the term. Not being a toolkit and all.

[Ziggeh]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I posted more than that on the last page, and that's only in recent years.

K, now list the ones that don't and define the term "standard" and we're all on the same page.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

I posted more than that on the last page, and that's only in recent years.

K, now list the ones that don't and define the term "standard" and we're all on the same page.

That's my point though. Most modern games don't have a toolset, though they would were they released 5-10 years ago.

[YuniSticksitDeep]

Looking   at the new  armor and the fact  you  cannot change the appearance of  your Companions.  (YIKES!!).

PC  users would do  well to wait  for the toolset/modsupport, (I know I am).

I am addicted to NEXUS  MODS SITE (also has Fallout,  Fallout NV,  Oblivion, as well as Dragons Age Origins).

Wooty!

Yuni<3

[Dave of Canada]

Even games 5-10 years ago didn't have toolsets as standard.

[upsettingshorts]

Yeah. The Total War series has had modifiable text files for years and while many things were hardcoded were "mod friendly." They are doing away with that in Shogun 2, but that's different from a developer supplied toolset for fan use - such as the Aurora one, the GECK, etc. That is what this thread is asking for, so when I or anyone else asks for examples of games that provide such software, listing games that do not have toolsets that can still be modded in some way skirts the issue.



I'm not arguing against a toolset. I'm arguing against the idea that a toolset is a birthright. It's closer to a gift, and one we'd all want.

[Ziggeh]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
That's my point though. Most modern games don't have a toolset, though they would were they released 5-10 years ago.

I imagine complexity has as much to do with the reduction as cross platform programming.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:29 .

[Atakuma]

ninja'd again

Modifié par Atakuma, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:29 .

[AmstradHero]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Right you forget about all the mods that fixed bugs and made the game better? The ones that helped make it closer to the game the Devs wanted it to be? Or are you too busy focusing on nudy mods and items.

I'm hesitant to call it this soon, but I'm cautious that he might be a troll. His post seems to reek of it through his mannerisms.

I think not. At what point did you fail to see that I would be keen for a DAO toolset and that fact that I create DAO mods? Perhaps you should make a considered argument rather than jumping to conclusions. Yes, the DAO toolset has enabled bug fixes in the game, but look at the most popular mods here and on Nexus. They aren't bug fix mods. I'm quite aware of the state of DAO modding and what the most popular mods are. It's something that I keep a close eye on because it's close to my heart. Can you claim the same?

slimgrin wrote...
No matter what he owns, he makes a selfish argument.

Not at all. Again, I'd love a DA2 toolset. I'm merely pointing out that demanding one reeks of entitlement.

Toolsets are not standard. They have never been standard. They are a bonus that is included with a very small percentage of games.  They are not the defining element of PC gaming.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:32 .

[-Semper-]

JohnEpler wrote...

I think the difference, though, is that in the current scenario, the PC experience was at X while the console experience was at X - Z. We're spending the resources to add Z to the equation so both the PC and console experiences are at X.

X+(-Z)=X-Z
slightly corrected your formula^^

Modifié par -Semper-, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:30 .

[Maria Caliban]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...
WoW has a toolset?

I was referring to mod support, since the varying mods in WoW allow you to fix problems that the dev's don't have time to, or don't want to.

Fair enough, but I'd say that's a fairly loose definition of the term. Not being a toolkit and all.

It's extensive support of being able to alter parts of the game. I think the general idea is not 'toolset' but 'PC users tinkering with the game.' In DA:O, you do that with a toolset. In other games, you have level editors and such.

-Semper- wrote...

X+(-Z)=X-Z

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:36 .