243 réponses à ce sujet

[MMOwizard]

Well if its for console games in mind, i am glad you found that interview. I might try it but i doubt ill be sticking with DA2 if cut down for consoles. Without the toolset i doubt it will be much worth it. Hack and Slash.

[David Gaider]

Drasanil wrote...
Misleading post is misleading. There's a difference between allocating resources to bring the Console version up to parity with the PC version, which is fair and focussing resources on the consoles versions to the exlucsion of PC considerations. You've reduced the number of talents and such because it's not "feasible" to use more than a few on a console, you've removed the Isometric view so you could focus extra resources on console-centric stuff, not to mention the new art direction.

That's a lot of assumptions, there. You don't think we made these design decisions because we thought they were better? They could only be made to suit the console version of the game?

I refuse to cater to the belief expressed by some that anything done to improve the console version of the game is automatically a net negative for the PC version. If you don't like it, fine. But don't go assuming that considerations for the PC are being "excluded".

It feels like Bioware used to care, now you get snippy with PC gamers when they ask for things like a toolset or regular patches that actually work! I remember the awesome support and community involvement you guys had with NWN. The game got patched up to version 1.69, now we'll be lucky if we get a patch 1.05 and that it actually works, I hope so because right now I'm stuck playing on 1.03 since the 1.04 patch rendered the game unplayable. Do you remember the CEP? I do, I discovered it because you guys were actively advertising it on your site, now days you'd probably write it off as self-entitled PC Gamer hofflenosh, am I right? 

It's not just some wierd PC gamer sense of entitlement, but many PC gamers remember the awesome community and support we recieved from you guys with NWN, hell even NWN2 despite the fact you weren't developping it, and expect better from you guys than some snide comments about "PC Elitists" and "Entitlements/Birthrights".

Sigh. I'm not even going to get into this argument. I already said that we'd consider the toolset. What I object to, and what I responded to, is the implication that we owe PC users some kind of apology or compensation for improving the console experience of the game, or the assumption that the PC version will automatically suffer for it.

Hopefully when you see the PC version or play it, you'll like it. Can't really say more than that.

[Saibh]

Am I the only one who remembers that only NWN had a toolsetkit before Dragon Age...and that was kinda sort the point of NWN? I mean, believe you me, I really, really, really want a toolset. It's why I bought a second copy of DAO after getting the console version. But it's not like this is some long-standing tradition of BioWare's that they've promised since their registration as a corporation.

Modifié par Saibh, 11 décembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

What's the difference between a toolset and a toolkit?

I wish Dragon Age 2 had a toolset as well. One that holds my hand, unlike the DA:O one that backhands me and tells me I'm a bad person.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 décembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[Geeenie]

O.K. I;m for voicing my own oppinion but when it comes to game addons or toolsets or DLC. I' would rather leve all that to the people who Know what there doing weather console or P.C. they know what their doing and to me my oppinion would probly offend some one without meaning too. so I say Lets leave all the development of D.A.2 to the people who develpoed the game

[AmstradHero]

Geeenie wrote...

O.K. I;m for voicing my own oppinion but when it comes to game addons or toolsets or DLC. I' would rather leve all that to the people who Know what there doing weather console or P.C. they know what their doing and to me my oppinion would probly offend some one without meaning too. so I say Lets leave all the development of D.A.2 to the people who develpoed the game

No offense taken, but if you don't mind me asking, why exactly don't you trust modders to give you something that is just as enjoyable as official content? Actually, I pose this to an open question to anyone who doesn't use mods.

Mod content does vary in quality, but do you think that simply because something is a mod it is inferior? Some modders actually belong to professional game development studios, and modders do go on to join big developers or even produce their own games.

I'm curious as to what it is about mods that makes some people ignore them simply because they are not "official content".

Modifié par AmstradHero, 11 décembre 2010 - 01:39 .

[Wulfram]

PC users aren't entitled to a toolset. They are entitled to not buy the game because there isn't a toolset.

Particularly since Bioware don't seem to be so bothered about patching their games nowadays.

[Pzykozis]

Wulfram wrote...

PC users aren't entitled to a toolset. They are entitled to not buy the game because there isn't a toolset.
Particularly since Bioware don't seem to be so bothered about patching their games nowadays.

Really..? That's your arguement? I'm sure in the wider context there are thousands of games that come out with toolsets and people can have their entire hobby based around all those many games that come with toolse-- oh wait.

I can't even begin to understand your logic. The toolset is a free extra that BW puts time into at their own expense for what is lets just say 1/3 of their audience (or potential audience) most lkely less since there are many people that don't pick the toolset up at all and lots that don't even use mods.

Basically the way your statement reads is;

"PC users aren't entitled to a toolset. Instead their sense of entitlement allows them to not buy a game because it doesn't come with a free extra, in this case the toolset"

It's so, so, SO very absurd. Sure you can not buy a game for any reason that's your own choice but... really? To deny a game on the grounds of it lacking something that's not even part of the game nor was it guarenteed or in any other way promised is just...

Also, I'm a PC user.

[Wulfram]

There's no such thing as a free extra. The toolset is a feature, to some people an important one, and one which it makes sense to take into account in your buying decision - though in my case it's more likely to be a question of when and at what price I buy, rather than if.



You're acting like Bioware is entitled to our money. They're not. They need to put out a product that is worth my money. A game with out a toolset is worth less than a game with one.

[deuce985]

David, I've read a lot of your posting in PC threads and you seem very annoyed in most of them.

I just want you to know, the entire install base doesn't have that elitest attitude, as I'm sure you already know...

As for a toolset, I'd love one. But I also realize it is a privilege. It is not going to make or break the experience for me. I'm in personal belief it creates longevity. I can't speak for anyone else, just myself. I played 30 minutes of New Vegas and still haven't pick it up since. Why? Because Fallout 3 has thousands of mods. No matter how complicated a toolset is, the community will support it. Sometimes you get professional devs on the kits.

It would be great to see one but I could also see why Bioware wouldn't release one. It fits such a small % of even PC gamers. You may feel neglected if it isn't implemented but you have to see it through Bioware's point of view. They're a business and they have things like deadlines too...

It wouldn't be like they're breaking a promise, they never said we'd have one, just they'd look into after the game is complete. Which is more than you can say for 95% of PC games today. Most are just console ports and they are left sloppy, patchless. So be thankful Bioware is creating a experience for two audiences...almost nobody does that anymore. I know I appreciate it.

Thanks Bioware, I know you'll make a great game=]

[Pzykozis]

Wulfram wrote...

There's no such thing as a free extra. The toolset is a feature, to some people an important one, and one which it makes sense to take into account in your buying decision - though in my case it's more likely to be a question of when and at what price I buy, rather than if.

You're acting like Bioware is entitled to our money. They're not. They need to put out a product that is worth my money. A game with out a toolset is worth less than a game with one.

No such thing as a free extra? It's a feature?!

Ugh. Ok.

I'm not acting like Bioware is entitled to my money and I'm not sure where you even got that from I'll buy the game if I like the look of the game, I just question your logic which makes no sense to me. Toolsets aren't standard, so a game without a toolset isn't somehow an inferior thing and therefore worth less than a normal game (it isn't really from a logical standpoint a reason to not purchase because the lack of one isn't something that makes it comparitively worse to other games out there) unless you don't buy any other games and only buy games with toolsets but well... , and I would question whether a toolsets existence makes a game better than one without anyway.

But that's an arguement of preferences which has no bearing on this. Still I can't understand your stand point at all.

[LadyKarrakaz]

Wulfram wrote...

PC users aren't entitled to a toolset. They are entitled to not buy the game because there isn't a toolset.
Particularly since Bioware don't seem to be so bothered about patching their games nowadays.

I use mods but I disagree here. The presence of a toolset or not won't influence my decision to buy or not DA2. The toolset is not a criteria to decide if DA2 is a great game or not. And BTW, most players don't use mods and don't care about a toolset, so I think it's a battle you're not going to win.
Sure, I'd prefer a toolset release, but the no toolset thinghy will not prevent me from playing DA2. 

[tmp7704]

AmstradHero wrote...

No offense taken, but if you don't mind me asking, why exactly don't you trust modders to give you something that is just as enjoyable as official content? Actually, I pose this to an open question to anyone who doesn't use mods.

The main thing which makes me hesitant about the custom-made modules is how these modules (by necessity) introduce some new lore into the game world -- this is personal preference but i just like this aspect of the world to be fully "sanctioned" and coherent, so to speak.

The visual mods are less affected by this, and so they're easier to use although i tend to be pretty selective with these too, trying to limit it to what i think fits the rest of world design and/or settings.

[MerinTB]

I think almost anytime anyone says something about "most players" they are talking out of their assets.

Unless they have some kind of well conducted poll or market research, they are basing it on personal anecdotes and hearsay.  And even if it's a well conducted poll or market research, it's still only marginally proof of anything.

You know what you like, probably what friends you know like, maybe some other people you are acquainted with, and possibly pay attention to forums or such to (most likely) confirm your own already established biases.

---

I don't think it's right for people who play games on the PC (whether exclusively or just primarily) to mock or ridicule or denigrate people who play games on the console (whether exclusively or just primarily.)  It's a choice, and not always one for stereotypical reasons.

That said ...

It seems to me (and I fully recognize this could be my own sensitivity to the subject matter or my own confirmation bias being fulfilled) that when someone brings up the PC anything in anyway (whether they are saying "I want to see PC footage" / "I prefer PC games" or they are saying "PC gaming is superior for me" / "console games are dumb") there's an immediate backlash of cries of "elitism" or "entitlement" or "console wars!"
Sometimes the person talking about PC gaming is out of line...
Often they are not...
but - regardless of whether the person was out of line or not, attacking them (or even worse, generalizing in such a way as to seemingly encompass all PC gamers) with dismissive or insulting rhetoric is not justified.

Again, this may be my own position showing and a level of only seeing what upsets me, but I don't think that subjectivity invalidates my point.

Console gamers have a right to want more than a port for DA2.  It is VERY clear that is what they are getting this time around, and that's a good thing.

PC gamers, however, have as much a right to not wanting a sequel to a game that was originally a PC only game, but then got ported to consoles, to end up just being "improved" by the console fixes and instead be improved as a PC game as well.  In essence, almost all the improvements being talked about are largely fixes to make the game play better on the console (not the story telling changes, no, nor the changes to companions approval system or the like necessarily) while some of the features being "removed" are often features that many PC gamers like.

The concerns are valid.  Knowing what you like in your entertainment, and not liking it being changed to things you don't like, is not a sense of entitlement.
A sense of entitlement would be "you HAVE to do this for me... I am OWED it, you are NOT ALLOWED TO NOT GIVE IT TO ME."
And I really don't think most discussions of "the previous game had this, why doesn't the sequel" or "most games like this have feature X, why does this new game not" are anywhere near anykind of sense of entitlement, just concerns about what people want.

In the end, knowing what one wants and doesn't want in a game (PC or console or both) and being allowed to express those wants, doesn't directly lead to getting what one wants nor should it even lead to the expectations that one getting to express said sentiments will mean that one will have their opinions given any real weight.

But insulting someone because they have a preference and express it, even if they do so poorly, is no license for you to respond in a rude, belittling, snide way.

----

*deep breath*

fully expecting deaf ears and all that, and some more "clever snark" from people who feel they are "entitled" (<--- that's sarcastic mocking of myself for using the term there) to using snark and rude dismissive terms because somehow the people they are addressing "deserve it" (<--- no one deserves it - someone is breaking forum rules, they get warned and banned...)

[Brockololly]

MerinTB wrote...
PC gamers, however, have as much a right to not wanting a sequel to a game that was originally a PC only game, but then got ported to consoles, to end up just being "improved" by the console fixes and instead be improved as a PC game as well.  In essence, almost all the improvements being talked about are largely fixes to make the game play better on the console (not the story telling changes, no, nor the changes to companions approval system or the like necessarily) while some of the features being "removed" are often features that many PC gamers like

^This.

I'm absolutely 100% fine with the consoles getting a better quality game for the consoles than DAO. Truly, thats great for the consoles. What I'm wondering right now is how is DA2 going to be a better PC game than Origins was? As much as I loved Origins it wasn't perfect on PC- it could definitely have been better. But I've yet to hear anything on how DA2 is going to be a better PC experience than DAO, only how things like the Tactical Camera aren't going to be there, or rather how its technically going to be there, but essentially as a scaled back version of Origins' camera.

Especially given how the PC version has gone up in price, I 'd like to know how the PC version is going to be a better PC game than Origins. The lack of toolset on launch and a proper iso view are things I'd view as drawbacks. Given how mediocre ME2's PC version was and how in general multiplatform games end up developing console-itis on the PC, I don't think its crazy to have concerns with the PC version of DA2 or any sense of entitlement to want or expect the PC version of DA2 to be a better more robust PC game than Origins. I want to see how DA2 on PC is taking advantage of the PC as a platform.

The toolset definitely added tons of value to the game for me- and I can say without a doubt that the reason I've bought some of the DLC and am still playing Origins is due to mods and the toolset- whether thats making a custom face morph in the toolset or downloading smaller appearance based mods (white teeth, no helmets!) or skill based (improved shapeshifting!) or dialogue / restored content fixes (Morrigan Restoration Patch!) or actual player created modules (Emissary! Dark Times!).

[tmp7704]

Brockololly wrote...

But I've yet to hear anything on how DA2 is going to be a better PC experience than DAO, only how things like the Tactical Camera aren't going to be there, or rather how its technically going to be there, but essentially as a scaled back version of Origins' camera.

I think the improved reaction to player's orders is supposed to be big part of it. Also, the "distinct classes", "unique companion appearances" and other changes in this direction. And the voiced PC, of course.

(that comes across rather snarky given my personal preferences but it's meant to be genuine guess)

Modifié par tmp7704, 11 décembre 2010 - 07:16 .

[slimgrin]

Still, a toolset is a gift not a requirement.

And consoles have the larger market Brock, we just have to get used to it. Their version got the shaft last time so I suspect the emphasis is on reassuring them right now.

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 décembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[ladydesire]

Drasanil wrote...


It feels like Bioware used to care, now you get snippy with PC gamers when they ask for things like a toolset or regular patches that actually work! I remember the awesome support and community involvement you guys had with NWN. The game got patched up to version 1.69, now we'll be lucky if we get a patch 1.05 and that it actually works, I hope so because right now I'm stuck playing on 1.03 since the 1.04 patch rendered the game unplayable. 

You do realize that they were developing DAO (at least some aspects of it) while working on the NWN1.69 patch, right? And that they very well could be planning to work on one or more final patches for DAO once the major work for DA2 is done, since most of the people that would be working on both the toolset and game patches are working on DA2? 

[Brockololly]

tmp7704 wrote...
I think the improved reaction to player's orders is supposed to be big part of it. Also, the "distinct classes", "unique companion appearances" and other changes in this direction. And the voiced PC, of course.

(that comes across rather snarky given my personal preferences but it's meant to be genuine guess)

Sure, but thats largely stuff thats on all the platforms. Maybe the more responsiveness makes combat better on the PC, but I'm more wondering if there will be DX 11 support or higher res textures or more graphics options, or just features/ "stuff" that truly utilizes the hardware of a PC as opposed to having the PC SKU handcuffed to the design and limitations of the console version.

I know design parity has been brought up in previews and stuff when referring to the improvements to the console version but to me, that seems to contradict the notion that they're building DA2 as a game which makes themost of each platform, especially the PC as compared to the consoles.

Origins on PC felt like a game designed from the ground up for the PC- I'm truly wondering if DA2 will "feel" like that or if it'll be more like ME2 on PC where it clearly felt like a console game ported over to the PC, despite being developed at the same time apparently.

slimgrin wrote...
And consoles have the larger market Brock, we just have to get used to it.  Their version got the shaft last time so I suspect the emphasis is on  reassuring them right now.

Sure, and thats fine to refine the console experience given that fact. I just don't want to see the PC version stagnate because the attention is focused on the consoles. It would be very disheartening for DA2 on the PC to end up "feeling" like a console game after Origins was so well done for the PC.

And even if consoles have a larger market, you add in the new, higher PC price and what Zeschuk commented on here:

GZ: It's interesting. At the end of the day, if sales are close [across platforms], you'll always make more money on PC, because there are no platform fees. And certainly with PC, there's more flexibility of post-release content and directly engaging the consumer -- like with our community site, as compared to Xbox Live or PlayStation Store.

So you add in the fact that they're making more per PC copy anyway, add in the $60 price with no licensing fee, plus how they'd make more per digital sale on the PC (either through EA store directly or even not having to print disks if sold through Steam) and it would be irksome to me if DA2 ends up feeling like a console game on the PC when, should sales be good, they'd likely be making more per copy than the console version, yet the "attention" is being given to the consoles while the PC version has features which add value, like the toolset or iso view,  chipped away.

Modifié par Brockololly, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[MerinTB]

Brockololly wrote...
So you add in the fact that they're making more per PC copy anyway, add in the $60 price with no licensing fee, plus how they'd make more per digital sale on the PC (either through EA store directly or even not having to print disks if sold through Steam) and it would be irksome to me if DA2 ends up feeling like a console game on the PC when, should sales be good, they'd likely be making more per copy than the console version, yet the "attention" is being given to the consoles while the PC version has features which add value, like the toolset or iso view,  chipped away.

To be fair...

and I'm usually right with you, Brockololly, you know that...
(and I think I mostly agree with your sentiment)

I can see how this kind of complaint can set people's teeth to grinding.  It feels like a bit of grasping at straws to me, and you are somewhat missing the bigger point -

The PS3 isn't as big a market as the 360 (I'd argue the PS3, alone, isn't as big a market as the PC gaming market (especially if you don't exclude stuff like Farmville, Minesweeper and definitely WoW) but they still are moving to put their games on it (even though DA:O didn't do very well, relatively, on the PS3) and those are still additional sales and probably more than enough to make up for the cost of making the game work on the PS3.

The PC sales don't have to be equal to or more than the console sales, nor equal to or more than even the PS3 sales... but they are ADDITIONAL sales, an ADDITIONAL audience... and keeping that audience happy (not at the direct expense of a larger audience, no, but working hard to not do the reverse either (a little Mills and "tyranny of the majority" philosophy here)) is a good plan.

I'm sure BioWare is doing just that.  I have little concern that they aren't fully believing that they are still being very considerate of their PC market.

The problem comes from appearances - as much as appearances can be wrong, everytime a dev or a marketing person or a game site reviewer mocks, belittles, dismisses or even just casually brushes aside the concerns of "hardcore" gamers or PC gamers or whomever expresses concerns, said concerned people will have an emotional response that will hit HARDER than any logic ever will.

Emotions win over logics.  If politics has proven nothing else, it's that facts do not matter to people blinded by idealism and emotion.  (<--- I do NOT say that without the understanding of the seeming hypocrisy of ME trying to put this forth to others)

If there's really anything I think BioWare is really doing wrong with DA2, it's not feature cuts or trying to reassure console gamers -
it's not getting the company's messaging across well that PC gamers / old school cRPG fans should still find much in the game to like.
Saying it in the forums isn't as important as getting that message out in interviews - and while they seem to have started to "address" the concerns during interviews (to the point that almost every preview now starts with "hardcore (RPG fans/DA:O fans/PC gamers) may (bristle/balk/whine) at (changes/faster action/whatever), but...") and yet half the time those admissions are followed by what feels like defensive spin to gloss over such concerns.

IF, as I have often seen said, "these sort of concerns happen before every game release"... you'd think by now they'd have developed a better strategy for dealing with it.

Unless that new strategy is the "show very little gameplay footage until a couple weeks before release" - at which point I'm entering snark-ville and need to check myself.

----

Trying to swing this back OT...

A toolset is no more a "freebie" or a "bonus" to many games than multi-player or skirmish or extra maps or character creators are in other games.  An RPG like DA2 isn't "required" to have a tool set released - not all RPGs do, after all, and many BioWare games didn't (most) - but DA2 is a sequel to DA:O, and games in series that have toolsets tend to continue having them, so it's not an unfair assessment to say that it's being "cut" from DA:O to DA2 -
even though, as I think David Gaider mentioned recently in this thread and others have said elsewhere, the toolset would have been a later release for DA:O had DA:O's PC release not been bumped back to match the console release.

Personally, it's not a make or break thing to me at all.  I was really excited when the Aurora toolset came out - and then barely fiddled with it.  I did play much more with the old Unlimited Adventures SSI Gold Box Engine tools and the Bard's Tale Construction Set back in the day - but that's also probably because I loved playing those games, and I really didn't enjoy playing NWN.
I think for the game as a whole, for the PC market, the tool set is an incredible important part for longevity of the IP.   I'm sure BioWare people think somewhat the same about that and are surely carefully weighing their pro's and con's about whether to not release one.

But of all the things that concern me about DA2... a lack of a toolset is a "meh" for me.

[Drasanil]

David Gaider wrote...
That's a lot of assumptions, there. You don't think we made these design decisions because we thought they were better? They could only be made to suit the console version of the game?

Yes it is an assumption, but then again it is a fairly reasonable assumption based on the information you guys have provided us since DA2 has been announced. Every change you’ve announced so far has moved the game away from the more classic CRPG feel to something that looks like it was designed to play on a console and appeal to the console market. I’m saying this without making a value judgement, but DA 2 looks and is marketed like a console game as opposed to DAO which looked and was marketed as a more classic CRPG.

So being concerned that you guys are essentially ignoring the PC’s strength as a platform is a valid concern, especially given that every answer we’ve received from the Devs on the subject have been things along the lines of: “You’ll see”, “You’re Assuming”, “Maybe it is because we think it’s better” and so on and so forth. In essence, deliberately vague denials without substance tend to not exactly be reassuring.

I refuse to cater to the belief expressed by some that anything done to improve the console version of the game is automatically a net negative for the PC version. If you don't like it, fine. But don't go assuming that considerations for the PC are being "excluded".

Doing things to improve the console version is fine, console gamers shouldn’t receive a second rate game, but the opposite is true as well, PC gamers shouldn’t receive a second rate game either. As stated above right now it looks like most of the efforts that went into improving the console experience come as a net loss to the PC one, like no isometric view and cartoonish textures.

Sigh. I'm not even going to get into this argument. I already said that we'd consider the toolset. What I object to, and what I responded to, is the implication that we owe PC users some kind of apology or compensation for improving the console experience of the game, or the assumption that the PC version will automatically suffer for it.

You’re right and you don’t owe us an apology or a toolset. However, the belief that the PC version will suffer as a result of the improvements your trying to make for the console versions has been indirectly, and most likely unintentionally, fostered by your entire approach to marketing and the changes you’ve announced so far, moving away from the CRPG feel of DAO to something “Actiony” with “AWESOME BUTTON”, and the devs’ deliberately vague reassurances aren’t exactly reassuring.   

Hopefully when you see the PC version or play it, you'll like it. Can't really say more than that.

Same here, and that’s also why PC Gamers believe you’re neglecting the PC version; you can’t say more. all the announcements so far have played to the console’s strength as a gaming platform and you haven’t been able to provide us with anything that actually plays to PC’s strength.... see what I’m getting at?

tmp7704 wrote...
I think the improved reaction to player's orders is supposed to be big part of it. Also, the "distinct classes", "unique companion appearances" and other changes in this direction. And the voiced PC, of course.

I’ve never had issue with reactions time or what not, so I never understood that “problem”. As for the other changes, well they have less to do with the PC/Console divide and are more along the lines of stylistic changes. Whether you like them or not, I personally don’t, has more to do with what you’re looking for in a game as opposed to what platform you’re playing it on.

The only possible exception would be the Voiced Protagonist, many CRPGers are used to having Silent PCs any ways and view the introduction of full VO as something inhibits choices and role-playing, see no race/background options, in order to “spoon-feed” the game to the Mass Effect market.

(that comes across rather snarky given my personal preferences but it's meant to be genuine guess)

I don’t think you’re being snarky, but it seems like you don’t understand the underlying issue of why many PC gamers feel left out when it comes to DA2.

ladydesire wrote...
You do realize that they were developing DAO (at least some aspects of it) while working on the NWN1.69 patch, right? And that they very well could be planning to work on one or more final patches for DAO once the major work for DA2 is done, since most of the people that would be working on both the toolset and game patches are working on DA2? 

My point was the support for NWN was great and it’s clearly not the case for DAO; what’s yours? Are you saying that not patching DAO properly is alright because they decided to start working on DA2? Don’t you think it’s generally a good idea to properly patch the first game before releasing a sequel? If not what assurances do we have that they’ll bother patching the second one properly? Or the one after that?

[FieryDove]

Drasanil wrote...

My point was the support for NWN was great and it’s clearly not the case for DAO; what’s yours? Are you saying that not patching DAO properly is alright because they decided to start working on DA2? Don’t you think it’s generally a good idea to properly patch the first game before releasing a sequel? If not what assurances do we have that they’ll bother patching the second one properly? Or the one after that?

They will patch the game as much as they can. Remember these games are not PC only anymore. EA still has clout they should bop both MS/Sony on the head and say no patching/update restrictions and...no extra gigantic fees. Updates make the games better, customers are happy and everyone wins.

It would be nice if modders who did bug fixes could get the work passed over to the consoles. But we are back where we started, MS/Sony roadblocks. The only answer is...create a new console that is made by someone not so....strict and everyone jump ship. Or MS/Sony allow good support to happen without making developers/publishers go broke/pull hair out.

[ladydesire]

FieryDove wrote...

Drasanil wrote...

My point was the support for NWN was great and it’s clearly not the case for DAO; what’s yours? Are you saying that not patching DAO properly is alright because they decided to start working on DA2? Don’t you think it’s generally a good idea to properly patch the first game before releasing a sequel? If not what assurances do we have that they’ll bother patching the second one properly? Or the one after that?

They will patch the game as much as they can. Remember these games are not PC only anymore. EA still has clout they should bop both MS/Sony on the head and say no patching/update restrictions and...no extra gigantic fees. Updates make the games better, customers are happy and everyone wins.

Agreed.

It would be nice if modders who did bug fixes could get the work passed over to the consoles. But we are back where we started, MS/Sony roadblocks. The only answer is...create a new console that is made by someone not so....strict and everyone jump ship. Or MS/Sony allow good support to happen without making developers/publishers go broke/pull hair out.

Sony does (or did, at least for Epic's Unreal Tournament 3) allow mods, so the big hangup seems to be with Microsoft; of course, given that for at least one of the consoles, there is a memory restriction that doesn't exist on PC, making mods available could cause more problems than it fixes.

[SmokePants]

Sadly, the Golden Age of game modding has long since eroded. It's not the developers' fault. Games are just different now. Graphics used to be fairly simple and accessible. Voice acting was confined and you could get by with simple text bubbles. There were no real cinematics to speak of, just having characters standing there was the norm. It's so complicated now. Creating tools for a modern game engine is far more work today than it ever was and the number of people that would be able to use it is almost zero.