105 réponses à ce sujet

[Jebel Krong]

Christmas Ape wrote...

Because Mass Effect ended on a high note, then they kicked you in the junk and took your hat. Everybody came into Act 2 feeling buoyant, settled into their seats, and got jarred by a sudden key change.

You end the game with a hell of a reputation, you almost single-handedly dragged humanity into the galactic spotlight, and you and your ship full of BFFs have been through absolute hell, proved yourselves to each other, and averted the end of civilization. You're a legend.

Then BAM! Mass Effect 2. Say goodbye to all of that, but your obituary is beautiful - if premature. Your new allies aren't Space United Nations, they're Space Ultranationalists, and it's only your reputation that keeps you from being a wanted criminal - you must have a reason. You're tossed under the bus of political expediency by the Powers That Be with an implicit "don't call us, we'll call you". Your team is scattered to the four winds, and the intervening two years have changed them. You'll need new people; new people willing to die.

Sudden key change, major to minor.

You're not on detached and illustrious service with humanity's military, you're running errands for their dirty secret. The story picks up speed, shoving a problem in your face a few times instead of having it wait for you, and shifts focus from the investigation to the investigators. You're staring down a suicide mission and sharpening your team for it - it's as much about them as it is about you or the enemy.

Sudden key change, major to minor.

Most importantly, however, is that this time nobody expects to come back. Mass Effect had a sense through almost the entirety of it (at least until 4 plot worlds are done), especially in conversation with your squad, that victory was inevitable. Just a matter of time before you find the enemy and bring him down. Mass Effect 2 is entirely in opposition to this; you're going to have to throw yourself into unknown hell to even take your shot, let alone go home.

Sudden key change. Jarring. Effective if you get swept up in the new movement, something you sit bitterly chewing on the whole night if you don't.


Everything else is complaining a game straddling two genres didn't slavishly devote itself to the cruft of one of its parent genres but instead tightened its focus on the other, being unable to tell one metallic endoskeleton from another, wanting the middle act of a trilogy to explain everything, or being unfamiliar with the more horrific theoretical transhuman outcomes.
But I think a lot of it is, in fact, "But...but...I won Mass Effect! I'm the hero! BAD THINGS DON'T HAPPEN TO ME!"

awesome post 

[Pocketgb]

Indeed, that is an awesome post. Bioware put it lightly when they said that ME2 would be akin to the Empire Strikes Back: things get rather intensely dark and foreboding this time around.

[Tazzmission]

Pocketgb wrote...

Indeed, that is an awesome post. Bioware put it lightly when they said that ME2 would be akin to the Empire Strikes Back: things get rather intensely dark and foreboding this time around.

dude the empire strikes back comment couldve been refered to the whole gaining loyalty.... i think people expected the game itself to be like esb but keep in mind the charachters in esb themselves were darker

[Kyzzo]

Granted I do not follow all the threads in the forums. However, as far as I can see, the majority of the people who have expressed dissatisfaction with parts or the entirety of ME2 (And I happen to be one of them) has not actually said that they "hated" the game. Hate is an extreme emotion and I think that that word is used way too casually.

It is quite natural and understandable, albeit irrational, for people to ignore, gloss over or try to justify less than desirable/satisfactory traits/attributes of something or someone they really love, and become fervently defensive  when it/he/she is criticised by somebody else. By the same token, people in general are known to see the whole entity in a lot more favorable light if they approve of a single salient attribute of its, or in a much less favorable light if they disapprove of a single salient attribute. Moreover, people generally are not very likely to change their ideas, opinions and convictions -especially if they previously have expressed them publicly, e.g. in a forum- even if they are presented with otherwise compelling and persuasive counter arguments. In fact, the "otherwise compelling and persuasive counter arguments" might even cause people to become even more sure of their position. Since every single one of us is prone to these and other failings of our minds and to letting our emotions cloud our judgement, combined with the fact that we are safely and anonimously tucked away behind our monitors, we end up at each other's throats hurling insults, such as retarded, moron, sploshuns kid, cantankerous old-fashioned RPG geezer, and hyperbole such as the use of the word "hate".

Personally, I find ME 2 one of the most entertaining games I've ever played (Sorry but Manic Miner and Jet Set Willie will always be my all-time favorites). At the moment, I'm on my 14th playthrough and still do not even skip dialogues. That does not mean I'm wholly satisfied with everything that the game offers. As I have stated some time ago, ME 2, in my opinion, is outstanding as a transitory escapist entertainment. I also think that some parts of it are not satisfactory enough.

"Play refers to the possibility space created by processes themselves...In a procedural representation like a videogame, the possibility space refers to the myriad configurations the player might construct to see the ways the processes inscribed in the system work. This is really what we do when we play videogames: we explore the possibility space its rules afford by manipulating the game’s controls" - Ian Bogost. I try to evaluate the games I play in terms of their overall [procedural] rhetoric and the spaces of possibility allowed by the procedures/processes within that rhetoric.

Story and narrative are usually large parts of the [procedural] rhetoric of Bioware's games. Therefore, one would think that they would be particularly meticulous in creating a coherent and persuasive narrative. However, it appears as if Bioware had deliberately tried not to give ME 2 a strong narrative but instead to create an elaborate and embellished rendition of Pacman. Essentially, there is not much difference between our beloved Pacman gobbling up dots, orbs or whatever they are while avoiding monsters and Shepard, while avoiding some enemies, collecting some so-called characters, who are completely disconnected from and indifferent to the people around them, whom they are supposed to work with, and the events they are a part of unless it's an event in which they have to be directly involved; i.e. their recruitment and loyalty missions. In other words, the giant possibility space the theme of ME 2 offers for a really strong and deep narrative is reduced to one in which the player collects some...well, collectibles which happen to be capable of talking every now and then but are otherwise glorified dummies with a binary switch that determines whether or not they are loyal to Shepard and Shepard only. In defense of the narrative, though, I do think some of the individual stories are, in their own right, actually quite good. It's just that they fail to form a satisfactory whole. I could go into some other procedures (rhetorical devices) and the possibility spaces they offer, such as powers and equipment upgrades, but given that many people here can't even stand the sight of a "wall of text" let alone read it, I'll refrain.

Let me state it once again. I love ME 2 and look forward to playing the third game. That does not mean I'm blinded to its weaknesses. There are many things and many people in my life that are flawed but I still love very much, and I have no problem with hearing somebody criticize them as long as they do it in a civil manner. So there's no reason for the ME 2 "lovers" to think that if one criticizes some parts of the game or even all of it, that means one "hates" and is "bashing" it, and to feel so insulted personally.

[Christmas Ape]

Kyzzo wrote...

First off, I want to say it's a fairly thorough and considered approach to the question. However...

[...] some so-called characters, who are completely disconnected from and indifferent to the people around them, whom they are supposed to work with, and the events they are a part of unless it's an event in which they have to be directly involved; i.e. their recruitment and loyalty missions.

This also describes ME1's squad precisely. I cannot recall, save the load screen chatter and conversation in the Wards when you only have 2 squadmates, any time your squad actually talks to each other (don't be fooled by the debrief, everybody talks to Shepard). Three of them spend the entire game in the same room and never communicate unless you put them on an elevator.

[TaHol]

When I played ME1 first time I was in awe. It was so good! But I have finished it only 3 times (2 games to make a char for import, no big enjoyment there), and the awe came from the story and nothing else. I hated Mako and riding it, I hated the inventory, minigame and whole omni-gel-hassle. I disliked Citadel. No matter how great the story is, I know it now and I have no reason to go back, I did not enjoy the actual game play at all.



I have finished ME2 now 10 times, and counting. I love the game play. I like most of my companions, and I'm happy I can just ignore those I don't like. I'm happy I don't have to use hours destroying useless crap from huge messy inventory full of useless crap (like armor-upgrade nro. 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 x10). I don't have to ride Hammerhead if I don't want to. Overlord is only quest where it is needed, and not much if you skip collecting those...whatever datapacks. I like merchants in ME2, you buy what they have and thats it. In ME1 I was so frustrated when all mercs sold the same stuff I did not need, and never anything good. Only purpose for them was to sell them the useless crap you did not omni-gel and you get money and I never found anything worth bying after getting spectre-gear.



What I've seen many who are happy with ME2 are blaimed to be shooter-fans etc. I, for example, have no shooter-background. For me the ultimate game is Gothic 2 (I still hope that when I die, I wake up in Khorinis). Seems like many here have played lots of Bioware-games, and are used to them. ME2 is too different from what they expected after ME1. I had no expectations. When I started ME2 first time, I was in a bit of a shock for it being so different, but when I got it going it really sucked me in like ME1 never did.

[Siansonea]

Who has time to read all these responses? Geez. Haters gotta hate, it's what they do. Some people really enjoy hating. Even I enjoy hating Tali a bit, so I get it. I'm not going to write wall-of-text diatribes about her though. I got better things to do. Like play the game.

[Christmas Ape]

Incidentally and for the record, that wall-o-text quoted at the top of this page here?

I like the hell out of Mass Effect 2. It's a nice gut-punch after the biggest badass alive ending that was Mass Effect. Reminds you that organic civilization is, in the eyes of the universe, a blip. A statistical anomaly.



But now this anomaly is pissed.

[NICKjnp]

Siansonea II wrote...

Who has time to read all these responses? Geez. Haters gotta hate, it's what they do. Some people really enjoy hating. Even I enjoy hating Tali a bit, so I get it. I'm not going to write wall-of-text diatribes about her though. I got better things to do. Like play the game.

I don't really care for reading the things the haters write... but I do enjoy seeing them be put in their place by the people who like the game.

[Siansonea]

slimgrin wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Who has time to read all these responses? Geez. Haters gotta hate, it's what they do. Some people really enjoy hating. Even I enjoy hating Tali a bit, so I get it. I'm not going to write wall-of-text diatribes about her though. I got better things to do. Like play the game.

Some are hating. Some are posting reasoned responses.

There you go. Easy, quick to read, no walls of text here

I can always count on you, Slim.

[WilliamShatner]

Ecael wrote...

Did that in ME.

BioWare gave you Mass Effect again, yet people argue that it's so different because it's the same?

People are completely unaware of what they want these days...

Not once did I write or write anything to suggest that I wanted Mass Effect again. 

I wanted Mass Effect to be used as a foundation to be built upon and have the story, characters and relationships deepened and developed as all good sequels do.  Not for it to be smashed down and rebuilt.

As for ME2 being Mass Effect again, not quite.  A dumbed down, comic book, classless, vulgar version of Mass Effect, yes.

[WilliamShatner]

theelementslayer wrote...

Its like it was meant to be a sequel, who  wudda thought. hmm let me go through a different seqel I know and see if they follow the trend.

Call of Duty MW1
-Found baddies
-shot baddies
-saved the world from nueclear destruction

MW2
-Found baddies
-shot baddies
-Saved the United states from destruction

Its like a sequel is meant to be kinda like the other, weird....

MW2 is you example of a good sequel?

Eitherway, MW2 is not based on story.  Mass Effect is.  The games have two different objectives.

[WilliamShatner]

1490 wrote...


Would it really be fun to start ME 2 at level 60 from ME 1 with all your tier X items?  Personally, I got tired of playing with "cheat codes" by the time I was 9: what's the point of playing a game if you are already advanced to the max and invincible to begin with?  Starting the characters back out at low level is necessary.  The same goes for taking away Shepard's support from ME1  What fun would it be if the Council said "Oh sure Shepard, we got your back: we'll send our entire fleet to go kill the Collector Base right now!" End of game, 1 hour in: real fun.

This could have easily been addressed had the game been a direct follow up to Mass Effect.  The council would want to help you but can't because they don't have the resources due to the attack on the citadel.  Same result, no recon, uses the previous games events.  Done.

Furthermore, I really don't understand why the people who hate this game "so much" have taken the time to create a login and post about how they hate the game.  I'm pretty sure anyone here who enjoys the game and isn't a complete moron isn't going to suddenly decide they don't want to play it anymore because someone convinced them on the forum.  Of course I think criticism is completely-appropriate: it's good to analyze the pros and cons of anything rather than pretend it's perfect, and that is the basis of many valuable debates.  But to go on the forums and proclaim "I hate ME2, the plot sucks," or  pitching whatever generalized, ill-supported claim is stupid and pointless.  If you hate the game so f***ing much because it doesn't stack up to your A+ expectations, sell the game, buy another game you like more, and quit wasting your time on the ME forums b*tching about a game you don't even play anymore.

Because people CARE about the series?  Mass Effect is my favourite game.  I wouldn't be here typing away if I didn't care about the series.  Just because I am heart-brokenly disappointed with how ME2 turned out doesn't mean I'm not anymore or that I shouldn't post here any less than someone who loved the how it turned out.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 09 juillet 2010 - 04:40 .

[Christmas Ape]

I wanted Mass Effect to be used as a foundation to be built upon and have the story, characters and relationships deepened and developed as all good sequels do. Not for it to be smashed down and rebuilt.

Behold, the coming of the [REDACTED]. You took a piece off the board at the Citadel. Well done, Shepard. Their move.

Checkmate.

But perhaps the Devil can help.



If you don't like the shape of the story, that's your right. But dismissing it out of hand ignores the fact that it is space opera of a kind with the original, but a darker and more intimate second act.

[WilliamShatner]

Christmas Ape wrote...

I wanted Mass Effect to be used as a foundation to be built upon and have the story, characters and relationships deepened and developed as all good sequels do. Not for it to be smashed down and rebuilt.

Behold, the coming of the [REDACTED]. You took a piece off the board at the Citadel. Well done, Shepard. Their move.
Checkmate.
But perhaps the Devil can help.

If you don't like the shape of the story, that's your right. But dismissing it out of hand ignores the fact that it is space opera of a kind with the original, but a darker and more intimate second act.

Five years ago I got annoyed of the overuse of the word "darker" being used as a buzzword, as if it automatically makes something better.  And that hasn't changed bub.

As for intimate.  Again no.  Nothing in ME2 felt as intimate as my conversations with my teammates on the Normandy in Mass Effect.  ME2 felt cold and sterile in comparsion.  In terms of character I felt far closer to Shepard in Mass Effect than ME2.  Despite dying and being resurrection she has all the emotional weight of a fortune cookie in ME2.  A pastiche of her now iconic status.  No longer a real human character that you can identify with or project your emotions onto.  The crew members, comic book character (which is kind of insulting towards some comics), build on a gimmick, each with one cliched problem to solve.

[The Unfallen]

It's probably a bunch of Halo fanboys all butthurt over the defeat of their critically acclaimed fail game, because Mass Effect 2 currently holds a rating of 94 (PC) and 96 (Xbox 360) on Metacritic as well as one of 94.24% (PC) and 95.74% (Xbox 360) on GameRankings, making it the third highest-rated Xbox 360 game to date, fourth of all-time on PC, and overall 18th of all-time.

[Some Geth]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Christmas Ape wrote...

I wanted Mass Effect to be used as a foundation to be built upon and have the story, characters and relationships deepened and developed as all good sequels do. Not for it to be smashed down and rebuilt.

Behold, the coming of the [REDACTED]. You took a piece off the board at the Citadel. Well done, Shepard. Their move.
Checkmate.
But perhaps the Devil can help.

If you don't like the shape of the story, that's your right. But dismissing it out of hand ignores the fact that it is space opera of a kind with the original, but a darker and more intimate second act.

Five years ago I got annoyed of the overuse of the word "darker" being used as a buzzword, as if it automatically makes something better.  And that hasn't changed bub.

As for intimate.  Again no.  Nothing in ME2 felt as intimate as my conversations with my teammates on the Normandy in Mass Effect.  ME2 felt cold and sterile in comparsion.  In terms of character I felt far closer to Shepard in Mass Effect than ME2.  Despite dying and being resurrection she has all the emotional weight of a fortune cookie in ME2.  A pastiche of her now iconic status.  No longer a real human character that you can identify with or project your emotions onto.  The crew members, comic book character (which is kind of insulting towards some comics), build on a gimmick, each with one cliched problem to solve.

Wow you are a sad life here  .

[theelementslayer]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Ecael wrote...

Did that in ME.

BioWare gave you Mass Effect again, yet people argue that it's so different because it's the same?

People are completely unaware of what they want these days...

Not once did I write or write anything to suggest that I wanted Mass Effect again. 

I wanted Mass Effect to be used as a foundation to be built upon and have the story, characters and relationships deepened and developed as all good sequels do.  Not for it to be smashed down and rebuilt.

As for ME2 being Mass Effect again, not quite.  A dumbed down, comic book, classless, vulgar version of Mass Effect, yes.

It was built upon the other story, but instead of everything working out for shepard it fell apart, the council not believing her, the collector attack, the relationships. Just because it wasn't all yay we are happy doesnt mean it wasn't built upon. Alot can happen in 2 years and it did, relationships change, people change, the galaxy doesnt want to frighten everyone.

Also I think it was quite the opposite of a dumbed down version. In ME1 it was very much a good vs evil. You vs Saren, You vs. Geth, You vs. Reapers. Black and white. In the second it was alot darker and alot greyer. Sure we didnt like the Illusive Man (well most people, I respected him) but was he ever wrong. No. Did he give you all that was needed to finish the mission. Yes. Did he respect your choice for ditching him. Yes. He was a grey character. Alot of bad but in the end alot of good. Another grey character, the collector general. I felt bad for him at the end, hell the collectors might be an alright race but he was being controlled by the reapers, and only let go when his whole of people were dead. In the end of ME1, everything was good, everyone survived bar one, the galaxy was saved and everyone loved Shepard. In ME2 it shows you that yup, your only a mortal who is facing a machine that hasnt been defeated in 50 thousand years.

[Jebel Krong]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Five years ago I got annoyed of the overuse of the word "darker" being used as a buzzword, as if it automatically makes something better.  And that hasn't changed bub.

As for intimate.  Again no.  Nothing in ME2 felt as intimate as my conversations with my teammates on the Normandy in Mass Effect.  ME2 felt cold and sterile in comparsion.  In terms of character I felt far closer to Shepard in Mass Effect than ME2.  Despite dying and being resurrection she has all the emotional weight of a fortune cookie in ME2.  A pastiche of her now iconic status.  No longer a real human character that you can identify with or project your emotions onto.  The crew members, comic book character (which is kind of insulting towards some comics), build on a gimmick, each with one cliched problem to solve.

poppycock.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 09 juillet 2010 - 05:14 .

[Christmas Ape]

WilliamShatner wrote...
Five years ago I got annoyed of the overuse of the word "darker" being used as a buzzword, as if it automatically makes something better.  And that hasn't changed bub.

In your urge to dislike you mistake fact for preference. I didn't say the fact that it's a darker second act - pretty fvcking common in space opera trilogy - to say that it was better. I said it because it was true.

As for intimate.  Again no.  Nothing in ME2 felt as intimate as my conversations with my teammates on the Normandy in Mass Effect.  ME2 felt cold and sterile in comparsion.  In terms of character I felt far closer to Shepard in Mass Effect than ME2.

You use this word "felt" like it's an argument to be taken with weight for the population at large. Why is that?

Despite dying and being resurrection she has all the emotional weight of a fortune cookie in ME2.  A pastiche of her now iconic status.  No longer a real human character that you can identify with or project your emotions onto.  The crew members, comic book character (which is kind of insulting towards some comics), build on a gimmick, each with one cliched problem to solve.

Yes, I'd forgotten about the riveting Shakespearean drama that was ME1. Shepard pours out her heart in a few stiff animations and some good voice acting. I wept when each of my alien crew members each had one problem they needed me to solve, and were absolutely not space opera archetypes to the bone but fully realized people, and I had to weigh the lives of the typecast love interests in the balance.

I think your bias is showing.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 09 juillet 2010 - 05:14 .

[The Unfallen]

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

It's probably a bunch of Halo fanboys all butthurt over the defeat of their critically acclaimed fail game, because Mass Effect 2 currently holds a rating of 94 (PC) and 96 (Xbox 360) on Metacritic as well as one of 94.24% (PC) and 95.74% (Xbox 360) on GameRankings, making it the third highest-rated Xbox 360 game to date, fourth of all-time on PC, and overall 18th of all-time.

[WilliamShatner]

I fully admit to be biased. Next!

[The Unfallen]

Seriously. Mass Effect had a way better ending (even if it was a bit predictable), the explosion or EMP blast from the Collector Base was way more epic than Mass Effect's ending. Not to mention the characters were better. Paragon Shepard was better. Renegade Shepard was better. To me Harbinger was more sinister and intimidating than Sovereign, and more Iconic. And no more annoying-ass Saren. Mass Effect 2 for the win.