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Ser Jory: Martyr or Victim?


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#1
exorzist

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An examination of a contentious early scene.

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Actions have consequences – this is a theme that Bioware tries to hammer home continually throughout Dragon Age.

Even months after the game’s release, and with Dragon Age 2 on the horizon, few aspects of the game – save, perhaps, the choice between templars and mages – inspire as much debate as Duncan’s decision to kill Ser Jory during the Joining ritual after the game. Some players immediately identify with the harsh reality of being a Warden; others hate the Wardens for killing an innocent, frightened man. With the right dialogue choices, one can even make an enemy of Alistair ...

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#2
MyKingdomCold

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neither

I vote for wuss

#3
Dark Lilith

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excellent read and very thought provoking too.

#4
MyKingdomCold

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But a more serious reply from me, I guess, would be how is he a martyr? which cause did he die for? If he's a martyr, wouldn't all the others would died from the Joining be martyrs too? Wouldn't Daveth be a martyr?



I don't think how Jory died would become public knowledge. So most people would assume he died during the ritual itself.

#5
Melca36

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Jory said as he was prepared to fight Duncan....



"There is no glory in this."



The Wardens were not who they are for glory.



He deserved to die.




#6
Wedger

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Jory was there just to show us how cold blooded Warden's are. And secretive, don't forget secretive.

#7
Sarah1281

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[*] When the party first battles darkspawn, Jory

Then it goes to the next point. What does Jory do?

#8
ejoslin

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Is martyr the correct word? It seemed the only principle he was fighting for there was his fear of the darkspawn. He'd rather die than drink their blood, but I'm not sure if that could be considered martyrdom. That said, it was a good article.

#9
AntiChri5

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He was an idiot, and one best forgotten.

#10
Liliandra Nadiar

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Jory seemed (to me) to be more attracted to the prestige of being a Warden and just happened to have the right qualities in a fight that Duncan (or who ever recruited him) thought would be useful.



He wasn't ready or willing to actually die for the Wardens cause. Unfortunate, but Duncan told everyone that the Joining could kill them before they went to the site. He said he was ready.

#11
JergenKajaton

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The Grey Wardens have the Right of Conscription, and there is no going back. By refusing the joining, Jory essentially became a deserter, and died a deserter's death.

I thought it was interesting that the proud and noble Redcliffe knight resisted the joining, while the shady, thievish fellow from Denerim bravely and proudly embraced it.

Keep in mind that Dragon Age doesn't just contain moral complexity, it's about moral complexity. Much like the real world, nothing is ever black and white in Thedas. I suspect it's no accident that our favorite darkspawn-slaying order is called the GREY Wardens.

#12
nos_astra

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Melca36 wrote...
Jory said as he was prepared to fight Duncan....

"There is no glory in this."

The Wardens were not who they are for glory.

He deserved to die.


How does someone deserve to die for making wrong assumptions about the Wardens? Especially if there are legends about that paint the Wardens as heroes?

#13
Chuvvy

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Victim, it wouldn't have been that hard to talk the idiot down. Instead Duncan stabbed him for wanting to be a father.

#14
nos_astra

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JergenKajaton wrote...
The Grey Wardens have the Right of Conscription, and there is no going back. By refusing the joining, Jory essentially became a deserter, and died a deserter's death.

You can desert the Grey Wardens after the Joining, it does not matter. Riordan says as much when you wonder if recruiting Loghain will even lead to one more body to throw at the Archdemon. One wonders why a Warden can leave any time after the Joining but has to die if he refuses the Joining. Probably because the Right of Conscription wouldn't work if the Wardens were not allowed to threaten their unwilling recruits like that. Drink from the cup or die!

Yeah, makes a bit of sense now. Doesn't mean killing your recruits because they want to back out once they know what awaits them is a good thing. It's terribly unfair.

JergenKajaton wrote...
I thought it was interesting that the proud and noble Redcliffe knight resisted the joining, while the shady, thievish fellow from Denerim bravely and proudly embraced it.

Daveth was conscripted from the gallows. Either he joins the Wardens or he has a noose around his neck by dawn. Jory was a volunteer who left a good life for the wrong reasons.

Edit: He's a victim of the Warden's wonky policy of secrecy and "by any means necessary".

Modifié par klarabella, 09 juillet 2010 - 08:14 .


#15
CalJones

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Jory saw the Wardens much as Cailan did - an elite and slightly mysterious order shrouded in legend. Both had misguided notions of glory, but after encountering the darkspawn, Jory realised the reality was very different.

It's easy to dismiss him as a coward, but he has a lot to lose - a wife pregnant with a child he'll never get to see if he dies. The Warden, and indeed Daveth, have more to gain from becoming wardens, or at least, less to lose.

So whose fault is it? Jory, clearly, didn't understand what he was getting himself into, and was not cut out for being a warden. Duncan, as experienced as he was, should have seen this, and as desperate as he was for recruits, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a man with a pregnant wife is not going to have his head in the game.

Perhaps Alistair, too, should have reported that Jory didn't take to fighting the darkspawn in the Korcari Wilds, though Alistair is himself inexperienced and could have put that down to first time nerves (after all, he tells the Warden that the first time he encountered darkspawn, he wasn't prepared for how monstrous they were).

Still, Jory should have been given an out before the ritual took place. No secrets would have been revealed at that point. Still, as he said in the game, he was eager to see the ritual. Perhaps he felt that as he had come this far, he had to see it through.

So, you could rightly say that the blame was partly Jory's for not getting out while he could, and partly Duncan's for misjudging his character. Perhaps Duncan even had doubts about Jory but went ahead anyway because he needed the recruits. That's actually more reprehensible.

Jory isn't a martyr - he is a misguided man who wasn't cut out to be a warden and paid the price. A victim? Perhaps, but one who also had a hand in his own death.

#16
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Considering the Wardens were desperate for more recruits at that time and Duncan was willing to test anyone strong enough, I don't think his decision to recruit Jory was bad. The taint is feared for good reason. Expecting their recruits to drink darkspawn blood without even explaining what the consequences is a lot to ask, especially of someone who has a family and a life.

Killing Jory seemed unnecessarily harsh to me, so much so that I wanted to throw the damn Joining chalice in Duncan's face. :P The Wardens attract recruits with tales of legends and heroism, so I'm sure it's a bit of a shock to learn what the price is--after it's too late to back out.

Are potentials killed to preserve secrecy? If so, I wonder about the Wardens who leave the order (as much as you can leave the order). They could do a lot more damage. As for Jory, he was a knight and could conceivably have been sworn to secrecy. His death just felt like a setup to highlight the Grey Wardens' 'whatever means necessary' policy (as klara said above), and to show the player it was do or die.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 09 juillet 2010 - 08:31 .


#17
Shadow of Light Dragon

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CalJones wrote...
it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a man with a pregnant wife is not going to have his head in the game.


Maybe, maybe not. Alistair says at one point there have been Wardens with children. I don't think it unlikely that there have been mothers or fathers who joined the Grey. In the city elf Origin you learn that Duncan once wanted to recruit your mother, after she had given birth to you.

#18
SOLID_EVEREST

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I liked Jory he seemed to have his head in the right spot. Everyone is judging Jory like they wouldn't have done the same. The poor guy had a wife and baby to take care of--who else will take care of his family... I think Alistair should've stood up, and told Duncan about Jory's fear/son before the joining took place.

#19
Avilia

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Interesting article, I enjoyed reading it :)

#20
SpiderFan1217

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Good read.

#21
exorzist

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Sarah1281 wrote...



[*] When the party first battles darkspawn, Jory

Then it goes to the next point. What does Jory do?


Sorry there was a problem editing the post. It should be fixed now :)

#22
FlyinElk212

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I go with victim, simply because Duncan goes on and on about needing all the help we can get against the darkspawn, then goes ahead and kills a potential Grey Warden simply because he was scared and didn't want to do it.

Good job, Duncan. Way to use that logic.

#23
AntiChri5

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Did you not notice that Jory both drew and swung first?

#24
DWSmiley

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Jory is a major fail for Duncan. Either Duncan did not pick up on Jory's nervous state or he did and deliberately set Jory up to fail. Either is bad. Give Jory the chalice first and there is a better chance he has the nerve to drink it. Or give it to him last, so he (hopefully) sees at least one person survive drinking the blood. Now some may say that Jory's nervousness means he would have made a poor Warden, so better to end it at the Joining. But that still doesn't excuse Duncan. As Cal Jones excellently described, Jory was clearly a borderline candidate who Duncan chose anyway. So Duncan owed Jory a better chance at succeeding. The Wardens were desparate for recruits and it's certainly possible Jory would have grown into the role.

#25
nos_astra

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AntiChri5 wrote...

Did you not notice that Jory both drew and swung first?

But he did back away. It's not like he was a terrible threat at any point. He died because the Grey Warden handbook of make as little sense as possible says so.