194 réponses à ce sujet

[Liliandra Nadiar]

DWSmiley wrote...

Well, everyone is severely misled on what it means to be a warden and maybe if Duncan didn't suspect a Blight was imminent he would have rejected Jory. But WITTETB (whatever it takes to end the Blight), eh. But then Duncan should at least have tried to maximize Jory`s chances of success. Or, if Duncan had written Jory off, then just tell him before the ritual starts that he can`t be a Warden and should enlist in Cailan`s army instead.

But not so mislead as to to know about the order. Human Noble, Mage and Dalish  (that I know of off hand) are told that becoming a Grey Warden means leaving your old life behind. And not by Duncan, but by the various elder figures. So either he didn't pay attention to the downsides that 'everyone' knew about or he didn't know anything about the order at all.

Yes, Duncan should've been more clear about the concequences of Joining, or agreeing to Join, before hand. He's more a victim of chance, bad choices and poor decisions then anything else.

[DWSmiley]

Yep, it seems he didn't think much past Warden = heroic knight. In regards to the original question Jory is definitely victim, not martyr, as he had little idea what he was getting himself into and was then thrown to the wolves - literally and figuratively. I like Kingdom's suggestion of having every recruit drink at the same time but I suppose the chalice is an essential part of the ritual and there is only one.

[C9316]

Yes Jory is a victim, a victim of ignorance. How could he have known the true cost of being a warden? He was simply like every other person in the world,awestruck by the various tales of the bravery and valiance of the Grey Wardens. Unfortunately he still couldn't rise to the challenge of being a warden thus he was a liability and needed to be killed that I understand because in all honesty who would join the wardens if they knew the cost? The wardens are a necessary force to combat the blight thats all that matters. Jory and so many others believe the wardens are an order of pure intentions and that is where they go wrong.

[Sarah1281]

How did Ser Gilmore manage to have a fairly accurate idea of Warden practices if not the inner workings of them with his story of burning villages to prevent the spread of the taint but Jory was so freaking ignorant?

[Sarkus]

klarabella wrote...
You can desert the Grey Wardens after the Joining, it does not matter. Riordan says as much when you wonder if recruiting Loghain will even lead to one more body to throw at the Archdemon. One wonders why a Warden can leave any time after the Joining but has to die if he refuses the Joining. Probably because the Right of Conscription wouldn't work if the Wardens were not allowed to threaten their unwilling recruits like that. Drink from the cup or die!

The whole desertion thing is a bit of a stretch, to be sure.  Some of your recruits who survive Awakening can end up leaving or taking unauthorized breaks depending on the outcome, so that's another way they reinforced the idea.  Which raises the obvious question of why those who walk away later don't tell everyone about it? 

From a story standpoint having both Ser Jory and Daveth die in the joining serves multiple purposes.  For one, it establishes that this is not a very forgiving setting.  Second, the player may be developing attachments to these companions and be caught off guard.  Certainly Daveth's death caused a minor outcry among fans who were starting to really like the guy.  Now the player has to consider that the story can go in any direction.  Killing off Cailan and Duncan a bit later reinforces the idea.

[Bahlgan]

klarabella wrote...

But he did back away. It's not like he was a terrible threat at any point. He died because the Grey Warden handbook of make as little sense as possible says so.

Agreed. Jory may have been a fool to back on his word, but saying he deserves to die is much like any evil character would say. Put yourself in his shoes, he has much to do for his family, which also isn't even guaranteed survival. Though I will say that the Joining was meant to be kept a secret beforehand to keep leverage over the recruits. It makes sense, although it is a completely pragmatic and heartless tactic. 

[nos_astra]

Bahlgan wrote...

klarabella wrote...
But he did back away. It's not like he was a terrible threat at any point. He died because the Grey Warden handbook of make as little sense as possible says so.

Agreed. Jory may have been a fool to back on his word, but saying he deserves to die is much like any evil character would say. Put yourself in his shoes, he has much to do for his family, which also isn't even guaranteed survival. Though I will say that the Joining was meant to be kept a secret beforehand to keep leverage over the recruits. It makes sense, although it is a completely pragmatic and heartless tactic. 

By make as little sense as possible I mean that later on suddenly everybody knows Grey Warden secrets and happily chats about them, like Anora knowing that the Joining is fatal or Wynne talking about sacrifices.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 juillet 2010 - 10:26 .

[Yrkoon]

Not sure if this needs to be mentioned, but Ser Jory did a little bit more than just "back away".... he backed away then unsheathed his sword to get ready for  a battle against a man holding  a Joining Chalice. Did he deserve to die? Probably not. But he did deserve a battle. And he got one. And lost.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 11 juillet 2010 - 12:21 .

[TheRealIncarnal]

Jory was recruited by Duncan out of necessity. He's a good warrior, and Duncan needed that, and perhaps Ser Jory could have come around to the idea of being a Grey Warden after being around Ostagar for a while and seeing the Darkspawn threat. Unfortunately, he seemed to still hold himself ahead of the mission and made the fatal mistake of threatening Duncan.

[Sarah1281]

The whole desertion thing is a bit of a stretch, to be sure. Some of your recruits who survive Awakening can end up leaving or taking unauthorized breaks depending on the outcome, so that's another way they reinforced the idea. Which raises the obvious question of why those who walk away later don't tell everyone about it?

Maybe it's a judgement call? If you think Nate/Anders/Alistair can be trusted not to say anything once they leave the order they're allowed to go. The clearly horrified and freaked-out Jory? Not so much so he can't.

[rhautanen]

1. It's a WAR people, not an afternoon tea party. Once you commit to serve in an army in a war that's some serious business.

2. Ser Jory (a strong warrior) draws his sword first, and appears to be coming unhinged.

3. This is a now very dangerous situation. Put yourself in Duncan's shoes. If something like this is really happening to you, how do you react? Your actual response in a real-time danger situation is not likely the same as the one you think through thoughtfully while sitting on your arse in front of a computer.



So given the choice of martyr or victim, I'd say Jory is a victim. A victim of circumstance, and his own choices.

[MKDAWUSS]

Jory should have drank first instead of Daveth. Daveth dead was his final straw.

[Yrkoon]

If I was Jory, and didn't want to undergo the Joining, I would have accepted the chalice as it was given to me.... then I would have brought it up to my lips, then "accidently" let it slip from my hands and on to the ground, letting its contents spill all over the place.

Then I would have turned to Duncan, apologised for my clumsiness and then offered to go back into the wilds to retrieve another vial of darkspwn blood --  and there I'd make my escape.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 11 juillet 2010 - 04:26 .

[MyKingdomCold]

Yrkoon wrote...

If I was Jory, and didn't want to undergo the Joining, I would have accepted the chalice as it was given to me.... then I would have brought it up to my lips, then "accidently" let it slip from my hands and on to the ground, letting its contents spill all over the place.

Then I would have turned to Duncan, apologised for my clumsiness and then offered to go back into the wilds to retrieve another vial of darkspwn blood --  and there I'd make my escape.

I don't think Ser Jory would've survived by himself.  There's an oncoming horde of darkspawn and I think he would've run into them during his escape.  He would say something like, "Bloody Monsters!!" and die.

[Sarah1281]

Why would they let Jory out of their sight once they had learned about the Joining but not undertaken it? Duncan probably would have watched him and the PC while Alistair went out to get some darkspawn blood. If it were that dangerous he could take another Warden with him.

[MyKingdomCold]

They might even have extra vials of blood in case people like Jory weasel out of it.

[Sidney]

Really, people are on Duncan's side? So what if Jory begs off? Oh no, people know about the ritual..........and? Obviously 2 of 3 people took the deal in this joining knowing it could be fatal -assuming you had this discussion about "wait we could die?" before the ritual so it isn't like if the "big secret" gets out they won't have "volunteers".



Heck, for most guys this is the French Foreign Legion and the involuntary volunteer is the way to go. This is better than whatever life they have. You and Daveth basically have nothing to lose, Jory ain't that guy. Duncan really screwed up as an HR director on that one taking someone who had a family and, by all appearance, isn't much of a warrior anyways - I know they claim he's a great warrior but Duncan scouts these guys in person and there is no one in the entire game less impressive than Jory.

[Sarah1281]

It's not the fact you could die that they can't afford to get out, it's that Grey Wardens probably use blood magic to prepare the mixture and it involves consuming darkspawn blood. How do you think the Chantry would react to THAT? And everyone pretty much thinks the Wardens are warriors of the past and aren't relevant to today anyway so it's not like a monarch pressed to ban them from their realm would have much reason to refuse.

[Sidney]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not the fact you could die that they can't afford to get out, it's that Grey Wardens probably use blood magic to prepare the mixture and it involves consuming darkspawn blood. How do you think the Chantry would react to THAT? And everyone pretty much thinks the Wardens are warriors of the past and aren't relevant to today anyway so it's not like a monarch pressed to ban them from their realm would have much reason to refuse.

Well they might want to share the "why" part of the whole thing as well. That'd do help their PR image. We're unpleasant but a necessary unpleasantness since you can't do without us.

[Sarah1281]

Sidney wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not the fact you could die that they can't afford to get out, it's that Grey Wardens probably use blood magic to prepare the mixture and it involves consuming darkspawn blood. How do you think the Chantry would react to THAT? And everyone pretty much thinks the Wardens are warriors of the past and aren't relevant to today anyway so it's not like a monarch pressed to ban them from their realm would have much reason to refuse.

Well they might want to share the "why" part of the whole thing as well. That'd do help their PR image. We're unpleasant but a necessary unpleasantness since you can't do without us.

I don't think the Chantry would care, particularly since until the Blight starts ravaging the land in the weeks leading up to the Landsmeet the GW are widely considered a defunct order and some people even believe darkspawn are extinct.

[Sidney]

No one cares because no one knows why the Wardens exist.



Functionally for 400 years there was no need for the Wardens. Stop this silly ritual that kills everyone - some immediately and others in a slightly longer-time frame- and save it for when the Blight arrives. You can have have standing wardens but why put them through the pain and risk of the joining when all you need them to do 99.9% of the time is kill darkspawn which the non-tainted Legion of the Dead seem to do just fine. Even the Emperor didn't ask the air force to become Kamikazes until they were "needed" to do so.



I was hoping that zombie Duncan would come back in RTO so I could at least beat up his corpse because I liked him so little.

[Sarah1281]

If you expect the Chantry or common people to be logical then maybe telling them would work.



What ever gave you the impression that people in this game are particularly logical or that the Chantry would risk allowing a foothold for blood magic by allowing the secrets of the Grey Wardens to get out? Basically, Jory is simply not worth the fallout. Yes, Duncan made a bad choice with him but he DID volunteer.

[Wedger]

Well really - If Duncan was a tactician, he would have Jory go first, as he was so twitchy. We all could see it by his wild eyes.



But then, we wouldn't have seen how the monster works....

[SusanStoHelit]

Neither martyr (he did not choose to die for a cause) nor victim of anything but his own stupidity and fear (and perhaps of Duncan's poor judgement - or desperate need of new wardens).



Ser Jory was: Idiot

[Yrkoon]

SusanStoHelit wrote...

Ser Jory was: Idiot

I'd describe him as immature; naive.  (like Caelin, to a certain extent)

When Duncan turns to him with the Chalice, what does he say?

"No, you ask to much.  There is no Glory in this!"


Glory?   He was obviously smitten  by storybook tales and had no  concept of the reality of the situation.    Had he survived the joining, he'd probably   whine endlessly   that there were no Griffons for him to ride on  in the coming battle.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 12 juillet 2010 - 03:59 .