194 réponses à ce sujet

[SadisticChunkyDwarf]

Jory talks a lot about "honour and duty" sitting around a camp fire. But when it comes to an actual battle or putting himself in harms way for the greater good, he cries like a confused 12 year old girl who just discovered her womans curse.



He wanted to play in little jousting tournaments at home which leads Duncan to believe he takes his role as a warrior seriously. As wise and experienced as Duncan is, he is no gypsy fortune teller (though I guess he kinda looks like one.) If that were the case, no recruit under his watch would ever die during the joining, as he would already know who would pass and who wouldnt. From the way Duncan responds when Jory refused to take the ritual, he does not hesitate and knows what he has to do. This leads me to believe he has seen this sort of thing before and knows where this is going. He made a judement call that leaders in his position must make regardless of the circumstances. To second guess his decision is easy, its easy to empathize with Jory because he is a docile bafoon who is clearly more dedicated to his family and self preservation than he is doing what is required. Duncan has no such luxury, he is a severe man who carries a heavy burden. It is harder to relate to him because so few of us in this world share such a dire responsiblity.



In the end Jory behaved as he would and Duncan behaved as he felt was necessary. Jory should not have been in that position if he was not ready for the possiblity that he may die, this is his own doing. But instead, he wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He wanted to play the hero but still return to his wife and child, rarely would that be the case in such a harsh world. And he paid a fools price rather than dying honorably.

[David Falkayn]

CalJones wrote...

Jory isn't a martyr - he is a misguided man who wasn't cut out to be a warden and paid the price. A victim? Perhaps, but one who also had a hand in his own death.

That is best statement I've seen yet to describe Jory.  He's most definitely not a martyr--he's not selflessly giving up his life for an idea or a conviction.  Victim does come close to describing him, but not in the sense of being an innocent or unaware victim.  While Duncan committed an error of judgment in recruiting Jory--even the most casual of conversations with the man should have set off warning alerts in the mind of someone of Duncan's great experience--Jory also chose to join the Wardens for the wrong reasons, namely, personal glory.  Unfortunately, we don't know within the story whether Duncan warned him of that or not.  Does "sacrifice" describe Jory?  I don't think so.  A sacrifice implies the giving up of something or someone of great value to gain a greater favor in return.  In the case of a religious sacrifice that favor would be a boon from the deity the sacrifice is given to.  In the case of Jory, that really isn't applicable.

Perhaps the best word to describe Jory would be "casualty."  In the end, that's what he is, a casualty of this Blight, nothing more--nothing less.

[Silvernight]

His final sentence "There is no glory in this" does indicate he wanted to join the Wardens partly for glory, which fired back on him. Even so he didn't deserve to be slaughtered like a rabid dog. Him deciding to join the wardens wasn't exactly an informed choice. And he had a family to take care of too. Yes he drew the sword first, but it was in panic and desperate self-defence more than anything else. He wasn't a real threat to Duncan.

[Bahlgan]

Wedger wrote...

Well really - If Duncan was a tactician, he would have Jory go first, as he was so twitchy. We all could see it by his wild eyes.

But then, we wouldn't have seen how the monster works....

Understood, now that I think about it, Daveth surprisingly held more resolve to the situation than Jory did. But then again, who is to say that Daveth might not have held the same feeling if he saw Jory die from the Joining? But then again Jory might not have died if ingesting the blood. Odd isn't it, so may plot twists and considerations.

Then I would have turned to Duncan, apologised for my clumsiness and then offered to go back into the wilds to retrieve another vial of darkspwn blood --  and there I'd make my escape.

That would mean running towards the Darkspawn horde. I don't think that is a smart idea, especially for one who cannot sense their presence. You never know when you will get ambushed by the rogues.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Well, in Daveth's case, it was literally Join or die. He did say Duncan pulled him from the hangman's noose. He had nothing to go back to but a shallow grave. Rite of Conscription, ment he (and a few of the PC Warden's) don't get a choice. Jory didn't indicate he was Conscripted, so he was offered the chance to Join.



You'd think the volenteers would go before the drafted, but... *shrug* Case of game writer's deus ex'ing the situation.

[Sarah1281]

So just because he volunteered he should be coddled? There's a freaking Blight so Duncan didn't have time to coddle ANYONE. If Jory couldn't even handle the Joining he's going to make a **** Warden. They aren't the honorable, glorious warriors he thinks they are.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

That's not what I ment.



If anything, Daveth and most tof the PC wardens should've been the higher risk since they're forced to be there. Jory should've gone first since he probably still had the vauge idea that it was optional. Stupid since Duncan said just a few minutes prior that it could kill you.



Jory wasn't a case of 'nothing else to loose'. In a non-Blight Ferelden, he would likely have never even been concidered, but it was a Blight and the Wardens needed talented fighters.



The idea behind the Wardens, an Order of fighters committed to the destruction of the darkspawn that threaten all life, sounds exciting. The realities to get there are the parts the tales gloss over.



Jory was a fool to just go into it with apparently two or three options before the Joining to back out. (Initial recuirtment, prior to going into the Wilds, maybe even right after when told the joining may kill him) Still he said he was 'eager to get this over with.' He didn't understand the realities of the situation, sad but there will always be those like that. Look at military special forces trainging. Sure it sounds like it would be great to be in, but almost none of the ones who try are able to get through it. The Wardens are just more... darwinian about it.

[Sarah1281]

Jory proved himself more high-risk when he wouldn't stop whining about not wanting to die, to do the ritual, about wanting glory...if you'll notice Daveth was all 'whatever, I want to stop the Blight' and you don't get much of an opportunity to complain, just to agree once or twice with Jory.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Not arguing that. Jory shouldn't've been offered a place period if he wasn't willing to commit his life to the Warden's cause above all else. Daveth may have been reluctant before the Wilds and seeing darkspawn for the first time, but afterwards he was commited to stopping them. Might not be an 'opps, I changed my mind, no thanks' option after the offer is made. Wether that was/should've been explained to Jory before he left Redcliff is something we can't know.

[Yrkoon]

The more I think about this, the more  I lean towards  blaming Duncan for  making a bad recruitment decision.   It takes less than one day  of hanging out with Jory for us to spot numerous glimpses of  his  true nature.  (which makes you wonder why  Duncan  wasn't able to spot  his cowardice before  bringing him to Ostagar)    Personally, the one that stands out for me is when you meet the wounded soldier in the wilds.    Despite being a *warrior* and an aspiring  *Grey Warden*, Jory seems scared to  face  the darkspawn.  Even when Alistair tries to calm him down by assuing him that they're in no danger of facing the horde, it Still doesn't ease his fear completely.


And a bit off topic:  Anyone notice how  Alistair seems completely oblivious to Duncan *killing* Jory?  He simply chalks it up to  "losing another recruit in the ritual", even though the ritual itself didn't kill Jory, Duncan did.  Of course, this is  the  very same Alistair  who  gets pissed off when you kill the  slimey bartender in Redcliffe for refusing to  join the milita.  Go figure.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 13 juillet 2010 - 01:34 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

@Yrkoon Alistair does admit upfront that sometimes Wardens have to do some 'pretty extreme things', so that combined with his utter devotion to Duncan might cloud his moral judgement in Jory's case.



Really, Duncan should have shut up about the chalice containing darkspawn blood, blindfolded the recruits and told them to drink up.

[Gecon]

Point ? Point of the whole scene is that you say later when Duncan dies: "Oh good, one **** less in the world".

[Lara Denton]

What I don't understand is why is Jory called a potential martyr? He's reaction comes out of fear, it has nothing to do with fighting for a deep belief or a principle or whatever else might qualify him for martyrdom. Facing almost certain death turns on the instinctual reaction of survival and that is what drives Jory. 

[DWSmiley]

laradenton wrote...

What I don't understand is why is Jory called a potential martyr?

I think pretty much everyone agrees Jory is a victim, not a martyr.  Some combination of vicitm of his own foolishness - he has a fairy-tale expectation of being a Warden and fighting darkspawn - and a victim of Duncan's carelessness and/or callousness.  Duncan should have seen Jory was not Warden material and, at the very least, he should have given the chalice first to Jory.

[Lara Denton]

DWSmiley wrote...

laradenton wrote...

What I don't understand is why is Jory called a potential martyr?

I think pretty much everyone agrees Jory is a victim, not a martyr.  Some combination of vicitm of his own foolishness - he has a fairy-tale expectation of being a Warden and fighting darkspawn - and a victim of Duncan's carelessness and/or callousness.  Duncan should have seen Jory was not Warden material and, at the very least, he should have given the chalice first to Jory.

Yeah... but I asked because of the title and because there's nothing in the story, which we all know, to have a basis for that and much less so after reading the article. He is not prepared to die for a cause, he's not willing to suffer, all he wants is to survive so why the title implying that he might be a martyr? 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

laradenton wrote...

DWSmiley wrote...

laradenton wrote...

What I don't understand is why is Jory called a potential martyr?

I think pretty much everyone agrees Jory is a victim, not a martyr.  Some combination of vicitm of his own foolishness - he has a fairy-tale expectation of being a Warden and fighting darkspawn - and a victim of Duncan's carelessness and/or callousness.  Duncan should have seen Jory was not Warden material and, at the very least, he should have given the chalice first to Jory.

Yeah... but I asked because of the title and because there's nothing in the story, which we all know, to have a basis for that and much less so after reading the article. He is not prepared to die for a cause, he's not willing to suffer, all he wants is to survive so why the title implying that he might be a martyr? 

Grabs more attention and thus more readers, I suspect. Media spin.

[Lara Denton]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Grabs more attention and thus more readers, I suspect. Media spin.

It seems so... but then, the next time, I won't be reading another article.

[Sarah1281]

He wouldn't doubt Duncan's choices in situations like that at all, since he seems to worship Duncan and what the Grey Wardens REALLY are, which definately isn't "glorified warriors"

This seems to be one of the few times he does, though. He freaks out if you choose some of the stronger against the Blight options like Werewolves and Golems (Templars are debatable) and if you don't gamble going back to the Circle, some of your recuritment choices, sparing Loghain... 'whatever it takes' really isn't a concept he's on board with most of the time.

[Elhanan]

Tis his own fault he is dead. If asked if anyone has second thoughts, Jory is the one saying let us get on with the Joining. And I believe that option is available more than once. I save my pity for his family, and for Daveth.

The Blight is not some fair tourney; tis serious business. Well, unless you have the Joining in your short clothing....

[Bahlgan]

Yrkoon wrote...

And a bit off topic:  Anyone notice how  Alistair seems completely oblivious to Duncan *killing* Jory?  He simply chalks it up to  "losing another recruit in the ritual", even though the ritual itself didn't kill Jory, Duncan did.  Of course, this is  the  very same Alistair  who  gets pissed off when you kill the  slimey bartender in Redcliffe for refusing to  join the milita.  Go figure.

That IS odd. I never noticed that, since I didn't kill him, but successfully recruited him. However, if that is the case, I must say Alistair most certainly overlooks Duncan's faults.

It seems so... but then, the next time, I won't be reading another article.

I would BOMB you with words of doom and disaster for saying that, little missy, but the smile made you too innocent looking for me to follow through with my plans of mutiny. 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 14 juillet 2010 - 12:16 .

[punkioinapit713]

Ok there are a lot of good points made all across the board. Jory is Dumb, debatable. Jory was naive, Yes! Note: Naivety doesn't not imply stupidity. There are many "intelligent people who are naive about things". Also Knights are usually well educated and live sheltered lives compared to thieves. Jory likely never saw true combat, only sparing matches. Skill in practice isn't skill in combat. One must be broken of fear of death. Jory was not cut out for the Wardens, True. Jory could have left on his own before the joining just as easily as Duncan cutting him before the joining. No matter how you cut it, Duncan was just as responsible as Jory. ( Even before he killed him.) Think about special operations today. They don't just say "Oh, you have heart", or "Oh, he really wants it." They cut your ass if you aren't cut out for it. And That is that. Same here.

Duncan should have let him go. Jory was blinded by the prospect of being a hero. Its not until the ugly truth was staring him in the face, that he finally came to his senses. Even as Jory drew his sword, Duncan had a choice. Jory was no more threat to Duncan or anyone else as a mouse is to a car. Jory's attacks were easily knocked away. I believe Duncan being a veteran warrior could have easily disarmed Jory. A disarmed Jory could have been talked to and possibly reasoned with.

At the very lest Duncan could have stated in his own words that, "Look man, we aren't playing cops and robbers man, its for real people f*c*ing die. I've been saying it all f*c*ing day. Now look you can drink the f*c*ing Kool Aid and you have a 50/50 chance of living or dieing. Or you can not drink the f*c*ing Kool Aid and me or anyone of the hundreds of thousands of people in this army camp WILL F*C*ING KILL YOU! So what will it be, roll the dice or die?" No matter how scared and or irrational you are at that point, getting beat up and having a blade close enough to gut you, when you are given a finally ultimatum should be humbling.

That way if he makes the wrong move and says f*c* your f*c*ing Kool Aid, Jory dies anyway and Duncan is redeemed cause Jory was just a puss. Yet if Jory mans up then he could at least die with that.

Modifié par punkioinapit713, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:45 .

[Sarah1281]

Scary wall of text! 

Edit: Okay, I can read it now.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 14 juillet 2010 - 01:11 .

[punkioinapit713]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Really, Duncan should have shut up about the chalice containing darkspawn blood, blindfolded the recruits and told them to drink up.

Now, That is what I'm talking about. Problem solved!

Duncan: "Put on the blindfold and drink."

Jory: "But I'm afraid of the dark!! Besides you haven't told us what is inside this chalice"
Duncan: "There is no turning back."

Jory: "Wait," [Draw his blade] "What did you do with the dark spawn blood we collected."

Duncan: "Can't you just shut your f*c*ing mouth" [Draws his blade] ",and do what you are told like a good f*c*ing
knight for once" [Kills Jory] "Btw, I'm not sorry for that"

How about this one, Duncan only tells the recruits to obtain the treaties. Before hand Alistar is told to gather the blood needed and be as discriet as possible about it.

Alistar: "Duncan, What should I do if they ask me why I'm gathering darkspawn blood. I mean its not like they aren't going to notice that I'm suddenly a hemomaniac."

Duncan: "Hemomania seems like the best cover, stick with that Alistar and all should be well."

[Later, in the Korcari Wilds]

Jory: "Alister, why are you taking blood from the darkspawn we just killed and putting it into those viles?"

Alister: "Well that is a good question Ser Jory, you see I'm something of a hemomaniac."

Jory: "A Hemo what?"

Alister: "I love blood, spicificly I love to collect blood from whatever I kill."

Jory: "Oh, do you drink it too?"

Alister: "Only if there is a joining.. F*c*!!!!"

Jory: "I knew it! You were going to try and make us drink that stuff!!! You're asking too much! There's no glory in this!!!"

Alister: "Daveth!"

[Daveth kills Jory] Daveth: "Already ahead of you on that one"

PC: "WTF!"

Alister: "Da.. Oh, you already killed him too."

Daveth: "Yeah, had to be done. The ends justify the means at all cost, that kind of thing you know."

Alister: "So you truely understand what it is to be a Grey Warden."

Daveth: "Yep, so that was it right... I passed?"

Alister: "You sure did."

Daveth: "Wait, so you really weren't going to have us drink that crap?"

Alister: "Well, know that you are a warden... Nope, not at all. It was a test. And to tell you the truth I knew that Jory wasn't going to pass, Duncan should have left his ass back in Redcliff. Although, I was very suprised to see that our very own PC didn't pass... Interesting..."

Daveth: "Die Arseface!!!"

[And thus Daveth killed Alister and in a drunken blood rage killed his way out of the Korcari Wilds and far from the Blight, only to be renamed as Hawke, and with the use of secret magics given a whole new physical apperance.]

F*c* everyone else its all about Daveth.:bandit:See you in DA2!

Modifié par punkioinapit713, 14 juillet 2010 - 03:25 .

[punkioinapit713]

Alas, I write some cool stuff and no on reads or responds to it... Oh well, that's why I don't post much... Wet willies anyone?