194 réponses à ce sujet

[Last Darkness]

A man is lost when he gives into panic and fear and ceases being a man.



Too many people, in the game in real life keep seeing the Wardens as Noble and Good. They are called the Grey Wardens for a reason, not the White Wardens. They dont do what is right moraly or otherwise. They simply do what must be done. Its is a rare thing when the Right Choice and What you Should do are the same thing.

[RampantFury]

I always thaught he was a whiny little coward.

[Bahlgan]

RampantFury wrote...

I always thaught he was a whiny little coward.

He's more of a man than Loghain, who left the whole army to die for his selfish advancements and his cowardly "outmaneuver the Darkspawn" theory.

Just saying is all 

[VampireCommando]

... coward:whistle:...

[Deviija]

Murder victim.



All the posturing about manliness, duty, and righteousness and cowardice is moot.

[Bahlgan]

VampireCommando wrote...

... coward:whistle:...

HEY! That's my emoticon! Get your own!

[MyKingdomCold]

Deviija wrote...

Murder victim.

All the posturing about manliness, duty, and righteousness and cowardice is moot.

If Duncan were to be charged with murder, his defense would be self-defense.

[CalJones]

Duncan was charged with murder - that's how he became a warden. He's a bit of a bastard, really. Killing Jory isn't really a stretch for him.

[MyKingdomCold]

CalJones wrote...

Duncan was charged with murder - that's how he became a warden. He's a bit of a bastard, really. Killing Jory isn't really a stretch for him.

Maybe so, but if I saw a raving halfwit coming at me with a sword drawn, I'd protect myself as well.

[Bahlgan]

MyKingdomCold wrote...

CalJones wrote...

Duncan was charged with murder - that's how he became a warden. He's a bit of a bastard, really. Killing Jory isn't really a stretch for him.

Maybe so, but if I saw a raving halfwit coming at me with a sword drawn, I'd protect myself as well.

I am sure Duncan knew how to restrain a blade, instead of always going for the throat, or in this case the gut. What he did was unusual and rather hasty.

[MyKingdomCold]

Yes, but maybe Duncan didn't want the babbling idiot to spill the beans about what goes on in the Joining.



I guess he could've always knocked him out, tied him up, and gagged him.

[CoM Solaufein]

He was a coward and a glory hound. He thought he was taking the easy way to glory by joining the Wardens. When he saw what it was really about he decided he didn't want to do it even though he was committed to the cause. He drew on Duncan first and got what was coming.

[Captain Jazz]

The nature of the joining means that if the knowledge of it was made public, people, like Loghain who already believe that the Grey Wardens are little more than symbols, legends, and simply something to rally to, would turn away from them in an instant because "there is no glory in this."

Sure, it's terrible that Duncan was so quick to kill Jory and it would have been terrible if Jory had died in the joining, but if he had found his backbone, put thoughts of glory behind him and taken that drink he might have survived. He was told quite explicitly, "there is no turning back," that doesn't leave much room for believing in any options relating to turning back.

Jory is a victim of the blight, of his own fears, of human nature and of the need to keep secrets in order to have a chance of defeating the blight.

Don't get me wrong, if I had been called to face the joining, I may well have reacted in the same way, I don't believe myself to be any braver than a trained knight, but if I knew that the choice was between drinking and dying, drinking and being changed or not drinking and dying... I'm going to take the 50% chance of life over the 100% chance of death. It just seems foolish to choose certain death over possible death.

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

RampantFury wrote...

I always thaught he was a whiny little coward.

He's more of a man than Loghain, who left the whole army to die for his selfish advancements and his cowardly "outmaneuver the Darkspawn" theory.

Just saying is all 

Even if what you said was true (which it's not as Loghain hated being regent, the battle might not even have been winnable, he didn't decide to leave until he saw the beacon which was already lit way too late, and Cailan was the one who insisted on getting himself killed on the front lines) that still doesn't give Jory and positive qualities that make him braver or less selfish than Loghain.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Even if what you said was true that still doesn't give Jory and positive qualities that make him braver or less selfish than Loghain.

Jory was not corrupt with hatred towards others like Cailan. THAT is a huge difference enough by me to understand that Jory was very noble in his previous history. As far as the brave thing goes, all I am trying to state is that Jory was not as experienced and Loghain was. Loghain may have not faced Darkspawn before, but he faced death before and should have known he was in no position to run away with his thumb injected between his legs.

(which it's not as Loghain hated being regent, the battle might not even have been winnable, he didn't decide to leave until he saw the beacon which was already lit way too late, and Cailan was the one who insisted on getting himself killed on the front lines)

Maybe I am missing something here, but I did not read anything about Cailan deliberately trying to kill himself in the battlefield. Recklessness is one thing, but deliberately trying to get yourself killed? That sounds like something you are quickly rushing to, as well as thousands of others.

I know they could have won if Loghain charged in. They were doing well from what I saw until the very second Loghain left, the VERY SECOND he left. He could have been the light in the darkness, but instead decided to feed his friends to the Darkspawn. Quite honestly, I have NO idea why ANYONE would call that a noble or awesome move. The very thought of leaving my friends to die would just tear my moral fabrics asunder.

[Sarah1281]

Maybe I am missing something here, but I did not read anything about Cailan deliberately trying to kill himself in the battlefield. Recklessness is one thing, but deliberately trying to get yourself killed? That sounds like something you are quickly rushing to, as well as thousands of others.



I know they could have won if Loghain charged in. They were doing well from what I saw until the very second Loghain left, the VERY SECOND he left. He could have been the light in the darkness, but instead decided to feed his friends to the Darkspawn. Quite honestly, I have NO idea why ANYONE would call that a noble or awesome move. The very thought of leaving my friends to die would just tear my moral fabrics asunder.

Okay, first of all by ' Cailan was the one who insisted on getting himself killed on the front lines' I didn't mean 'Cailan was suicidal' but rather 'Cailan refused to stay away from the front lines which are the most dangerous part of a battle even though Loghain kept trying to convince him otherwise.'



And are you kidding? Even if you ignore RtO where you find out that the mages (all freaking seven of them) had fled before Loghain did, things began to go wrong at Ostagar from the very beginning. Or are you forgetting how there were far more darkspawn better organized than expected and able to flank the army? Or about the darkspawn swarming the Tower they weren't supposed to be near? The ambiguity of whether or not Loghain could have won the battle or even just saved Cailan is part of what makes him so contentious. That battle was a disaster from the very beginning and notably Duncan AND Loghain were against even fighting but Cailan was after glory...and, I suppose, stopping the horde before it could spread throughout the land.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maybe I am missing something here, but I did not read anything about Cailan deliberately trying to kill himself in the battlefield. Recklessness is one thing, but deliberately trying to get yourself killed? That sounds like something you are quickly rushing to, as well as thousands of others.

I know they could have won if Loghain charged in. They were doing well from what I saw until the very second Loghain left, the VERY SECOND he left. He could have been the light in the darkness, but instead decided to feed his friends to the Darkspawn. Quite honestly, I have NO idea why ANYONE would call that a noble or awesome move. The very thought of leaving my friends to die would just tear my moral fabrics asunder.

Okay, first of all by ' Cailan was the one who insisted on getting himself killed on the front lines' I didn't mean 'Cailan was suicidal' but rather 'Cailan refused to stay away from the front lines which are the most dangerous part of a battle even though Loghain kept trying to convince him otherwise.'

And are you kidding? Even if you ignore RtO where you find out that the mages (all freaking seven of them) had fled before Loghain did, things began to go wrong at Ostagar from the very beginning. Or are you forgetting how there were far more darkspawn better organized than expected and able to flank the army? Or about the darkspawn swarming the Tower they weren't supposed to be near? The ambiguity of whether or not Loghain could have won the battle or even just saved Cailan is part of what makes him so contentious. That battle was a disaster from the very beginning and notably Duncan AND Loghain were against even fighting but Cailan was after glory...and, I suppose, stopping the horde before it could spread throughout the land.

What she said.

[balmung03]

@topic: I think we've all pretty much established that Jory isn't a martyr. As far as victim goes, as it's been said before, he's a victim of the human condition. Self-preservation is a powerful thing to overcome, especially after just witnessing someone die right in front of you from doing the same thing that you're expected to do directly afterward. Add to that how being brought up in Ferelden indoctrinates people to hate and fear blood magic, and how the Joining ritual is essentially a blood magic ritual.

We may not know how Jory's Joining would have turned out, but his mindset was completely opposite of Daveth; Daveth stated he was willing to sacrifice whatever he had to in order to defeat the Blight, while Jory was unable to accept that, continuing to hold on to his storybook image of the Wardens. Duncan's decision to kill him may have been hasty, but most of the evidence suggests that Jory didn't have what is arguably the most important quality in a Grey Warden: selflessness. (well, that and being able to use a weapon)

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And are you kidding? Even if you ignore RtO where you find out that the mages (all freaking seven of them) had fled before Loghain did, things began to go wrong at Ostagar from the very beginning.

I do not remember reading anything about mages running away, I don't even know how you come to understand there is a specific number of them. Is this obtained from codex or something? I doubt it, since I read every single one of them and do not remember.

Or are you forgetting how there were far more darkspawn better organized than expected and able to flank the army? Or about the darkspawn swarming the Tower they weren't supposed to be near?

Thanks.. I am indeed forgetting... Actually I believe that many people forget that numbers alone do not win battles. Ever saw "300"? Very good movie, by the way. King Xerxes won, but it took over a million fighters to win over well.. 300.. Spartans. Only difference is that there weren't that many in DA:O.

The ambiguity of whether or not Loghain could have won the battle or even just saved Cailan is part of what makes him so contentious. That battle was a disaster from the very beginning and notably Duncan AND Loghain were against even fighting but Cailan was after glory...and, I suppose, stopping the horde before it could spread throughout the land.

I believe it is safe to assume either you are a Loghain fanatic, or you are not a fan of loyalty; the kind of loyalty that involves self sacrifice. With all due respect, it seems as if you are supporting someone who is selfish, too selfish, to put others before himself. Considering Loghain's reality, he certainly thought to die before receiving aid via Orlesian Wardens. He doesn't care about reality at all! He wants things HIS way and HIS way alone! He cares NOT for Cailan, and has spat in the grave of Maric by allowing his own son to die! Even IF they did lose, the Blight would be have severely; SEVERELY postponed and would probably multiply the time taken to recover the numbers of forces if Loghain showed up. Ever since Loghain left the units to die in Ostagar AND painted a bullseye on the back of my head by means of bounties, he was already dead and he never knew it. He might as well have died fighting the Darkspawn instead of pulling a "Saddam Hussein" and hiding under a rock, or in this case a castle, waiting for someone like myself to mark him for treason.

 Duncan's decision to kill him may have been hasty, but most of the evidence suggests that Jory didn't have what is arguably the most important quality in a Grey Warden: selflessness.

Heh that's probably the nicest thing ANYONE has ever said about Jory: Look down.  V

He was a coward and a glory hound. He thought he was taking the easy way to glory by joining the Wardens. When he saw what it was really about he decided he didn't want to do it even though he was committed to the cause. He drew on Duncan first and got what was coming.

I actually had no real problem with what this person said until said underlined. This is disgraceful.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 19 juillet 2010 - 01:28 .

[Sarah1281]

I do not remember reading anything about mages running away, I don't even know how you come to understand there is a specific number of them. Is this obtained from codex or something? I doubt it, since I read every single one of them and do not remember.

Mage origin tells you seven mages are going, return to Ostagar has Wynne sounding much like you do as she attacked Loghain about his retreat and Loghain points out that the mages left first as the darkspawn, with their superior numbers and tactics, flanked them. Wynne admits that this is true.

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.

Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.

Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.

Loghain: Are you satisfied now?

Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.

Loghain: Such loyalty.

Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?

Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.

Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!

Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.

Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!

Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.

Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.

Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.

Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

Thanks.. I am indeed forgetting... Actually I believe that many people forget that numbers alone do not win battles. Ever saw "300"? Very good movie, by the way. King Xerxes won, but it took over a million fighters to win over well.. 300.. Spartans. Only difference is that there weren't that many in DA:O.

True, it's not just numbers. But that doesn't mean that hte unexpected numbers and superior tactics that the enemy was employing is meaningless. Maybe they could have won. It's not a guarantee and, as you said, your best example of small forces winning against unthinkable odds LOST. And that movie wasn't even remotely realistic anyway.

I believe it is safe to assume either you are a Loghain fanatic, or you are not a fan of loyalty; the kind of loyalty that involves self sacrifice. With all due respect, it seems as if you are supporting someone who is selfish, too selfish, to put others before himself. Considering Loghain's reality, he certainly thought to die before receiving aid via Orlesian Wardens. He doesn't care about reality at all! He wants things HIS way and HIS way alone! He cares NOT for Cailan, and has spat in the grave of Maric by allowing his own son to die! Even IF they did lose, the Blight would be have severely; SEVERELY postponed and would probably multiply the time taken to recover the numbers of forces if Loghain showed up. Ever since Loghain left the units to die in Ostagar AND painted a bullseye on the back of my head by means of bounties, he was already dead and he never knew it. He might as well have died fighting the Darkspawn instead of pulling a "Saddam Hussein" and hiding under a rock, or in this case a castle, waiting for someone like myself to mark him for treason.

No, I don't think that by saying that it's unclear whether the battle could have been won automatically relegates me to delusional Loghain fanatic or someone with no concept of loyalty. Even if I happened to believe that he was 100% in the right, which I don't, I understand he's pulled a lot of **** since then that isn't automatically swept away because he was right about Ostagar.



Loghain's reasons for refusing the Orlesian Wardens wasn't bride, it was the four legions of chevaliers they wanted to come with them. Loghain's greatest victory at River Dane was against half that. Orlais also has a history of occupying the nations it saves from the Blight and only were forced to leave Ferelden thirty years ago so he thinks they want it back. Plus, you know, Orlesian GW have tried to kill Maric in the past when they first came back into the country and he can't bring himself to believe it's a Blight because then Flemeth's other prophecy that he'd betray Maric over and over, each time worse than the last - which I think we can agree he does do if only through what he does in-game - so he thinks it's unnecessary anyway. And no one knows why Wardens are necessary. I'm not defending his actions here, mind you, just explaining them since you seem to think he's just mindlessly evil.



And it's all very well and good to say that Loghain 'deserves' to die with his King but...if he dies so do his men and then Ferelden won't have any hope of stopping the Blight/incursion OR an Orlesian attack.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Mage origin tells you seven mages are going, return to Ostagar has Wynne sounding much like you do as she attacked Loghain about his retreat and Loghain points out that the mages left first as the darkspawn, with their superior numbers and tactics, flanked them. Wynne admits that this is true.

I am wounded. Anyone got a potion? 

Loghain: You can stop scowling at me, madam.
Wynne: Did I need your permission? I see.
Loghain: Fine. I confess: It was entirely my idea that Uldred consort with demons. I had a dastardly scheme in which the utter destruction of Ferelden's best weapon would benefit me, personally.
Loghain: Are you satisfied now?
Wynne: Do you think your deal with Uldred was where you earned my contempt? I was at Ostagar. I witnessed Cailan's murder.
Loghain: Such loyalty.
Wynne: What is that supposed to mean?
Loghain: Did you try to save him, then? My apologies.
Wynne: I was fortunate to escape with my life!
Loghain: So you didn't rush to your king's rescue? I see. Then both of us left the boy to die.
Wynne: I was no general at the head of an army! I could never have reached him!
Loghain: And I had no magic that could break those darkspawn ranks. But perhaps you think I ought to have tried, regardless. No doubt, the lives of mere soldiers are cheap in the eyes of the Circle.
Wynne: And what of all the soldiers who died with their king? Their lives were worth nothing to you.
Loghain: You think so, do you? I knew their names, mage, and where they came from. I knew their families.
Loghain: I do not know how you mages determine the value of things, but they were my men. I know exactly how much I lost that day.

He might have known what he lost that day, but from what I read, he certainly didn't seem to care.

Loghain's reasons for refusing the Orlesian Wardens wasn't bride, it was the four legions of chevaliers they wanted to come with them. Loghain's greatest victory at River Dane was against half that. Orlais also has a history of occupying the nations it saves from the Blight and only were forced to leave Ferelden thirty years ago so he thinks they want it back. Plus, you know, Orlesian GW have tried to kill Maric in the past when they first came back into the country and he can't bring himself to believe it's a Blight because then Flemeth's other prophecy that he'd betray Maric over and over, each time worse than the last - which I think we can agree he does do if only through what he does in-game - so he thinks it's unnecessary anyway. And no one knows why Wardens are necessary.

You seem to be a very well informed player of Return to Ostagar, yet I do not believe you read the secret documents, or so called secret, that Cailan held in his chest. Seems to me that BOTH Cailan and Empress Celene were bent on putting their history in the past. There is no need to Loghain to show such paranoia. Celene doesn't seem to be one who would treat her words like kerosene, but I could be wrong.

I'm not defending his actions here, mind you, just explaining them since you seem to think he's just mindlessly evil selfish and traitorous.

I suppose our agreement is quite an accomplishment indeed! 

And it's all very well and good to say that Loghain 'deserves' to die with his King but...if he dies so do his men and then Ferelden won't have any hope of stopping the Blight/incursion OR an Orlesian attack.

Anora? Thought she had some pull with soldiers too, at least a little. Bann Teagan would have done well too.

[Sarah1281]

I am wounded. Anyone got a potion?

I wasn't insulting you. I just said that Wynne's position is much the same as yours is and she does bring up a lot of this in game and at the RtO.

You seem to be a very well informed player of Return to Ostagar, yet I do not believe you read the secret documents, or so called secret, that Cailan held in his chest. Seems to me that BOTH Cailan and Empress Celene were bent on putting their history in the past. There is no need to Loghain to show such paranoia. Celene doesn't seem to be one who would treat her words like kerosene, but I could be wrong.

I DID read them. Loghain takes them to be proof that...well, here's Loghain's take on it:

Loghain: The cheating bastard!
Wynne: Watch your mouth, Loghain Mac Tir, unless you have forgotten the company you now keep!
Loghain: It's not my company I worry about, madam, but my former son-in-law's! Do you see the familiar tone with which the empress writes him, as if my daughter were not already his wife?
Wynne: Cailan loved Anora with every ounce of his heart. It was plain for all to see. The only thing that ever stood between them was you.
Loghain: Are you blind, old woman? The plot is plain as day within this letter! Love or no, Cailan was going to cast my daughter aside and wed himself to that ****, Celene. In a single vow, Orlais would claim all that they could never win by war! And what would Ferelden gain? Our fool of a king could strut about and call himself an emperor.
Wynne: And what of peace? Would it not bring us that, at least?
Loghain: Peace? I would have thought your age might have granted more wisdom, madam. Peace just means fighting someone else's enemies in someone else's war for someone else's reasons. 

I agree with his 'Wynne, you're being naive' statement where she out of the blue goes 'oh, why not let them conquer us again' but not with this being proof that Cailan was going to marry Celene. Then again, lots of players also draw this conclusion. And even without that, we don't know enough of what the plan was to know if it would have been all in Orlais' favor. We just know there was an alliance planned and that both professed to not caring about the past. Do you really have to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about just because I didn't mention a point that you think is relevant. Besides, they are SECRET documents Loghain clearly knows nothing of given his reaction to finding them.

Anora? Thought she had some pull with soldiers too, at least a little. Bann Teagan would have done well too.

My point is, Loghain had a huge army and there won't be enough soldiers without his forces fighting because they all died so Loghain could be all Honor Before Reason. Anora and Teagan, who we don't really have any indication had great sway with the soldiers, couldn't have commanded Loghain's huge dead army.

[punkioinapit713]

How the heck does a forum topic about Jory turn into a fight about Loghain?:blink:Look Loghain is a b*t*h he got what was coming to him if, the PC killed him or made him a warden and let him sacrifice himself as he should have along with his troops at Ostagar.

The PC along with Alistair would have survived regardless. Loghain dieing with his men, Duncan, Cailan and all of the others would not have changed much. Instead of having to worry about Loghain and the Blight, the PC would have only have to worry about the Blight. Making it easier.

Orlesians never arrived in all of Dragon Age as far as I remember, so that "Invasion" wouldn't be an issue.<_<

So, I feel  those points don't retain their... Pointiness... LOL!

Any Sarah1281, you do make some other great observations of Loghain. Though if you really look at it Bahlgan has a point about making that sacrifice. The Orlesians wouldn't have been a problem, if they all died with Ducan, Cailan, Loghain and their forces. And Bahlgan was again right with the observation that the Blight would have been slowed down.

Even if the Allied force lost at Ostagar they would have dealt a devastating blow to the Blight and they would have to spend more time regrouping and bolstering their numbers to replace those lost.

If the Allied force won and where overpowered by the Orlesians. Then the PC would have the Orlesians and the Blight to fight instead of Loghain and the Blight, A tougher fight but hardly unwindable. 

Modifié par punkioinapit713, 19 juillet 2010 - 02:39 .

[Bahlgan]

I wasn't insulting you. I just said that Wynne's position is much the same as yours is and she does bring up a lot of this in game and at the RtO.

Ah, Esta bien! Yo entiendo!

punkioinapit713 wrote...

How the heck does a forum topic about Jory turn into a fight about Loghain? Look Loghain is a b*t*h he got what was coming to him if, the PC killed him or made him a warden and let him sacrifice himself as he should have along with his troops at Ostagar.

Debating is fun (sometimes, not all the time).. Sometimes it can be so fun that it stems to different topics. If you wish to revert, then please do so. Sarah, I have no hard feelings, in fact I am glad we had the chance to exchange points of view. I feel I have learned alot about your standpoint about Wynne and Loghain.

If it is any consolation, I know Wynne can be a bastard too sometimes, but I imagine her heart is in the right place.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 19 juillet 2010 - 02:34 .

[Sarah1281]

I still don't think just throwing his troops away would have been a smart plan. If there was no way to win then he should not have charged. We don't know that, however, and if you want to think that throwing his troops as the darkspawn and hoping that they do kill enough of them to make it worth it would have been better then that's fine because we don't know.



And the reason the Orlesians aren't an issue is because Loghain has his guards forcing them to stay at the border for months on end. We don't know what they would have done had they been allowed in (and I don't blame him for not wanting the chevaliers of all people to be allowed in given their sanctioned abilitiy to do whatever the hell they want to the commoners and raped Loghain's own mother while he watched before killing her in front of him) but you can't say Loghain dying would have kept them a non-issue because had he died they would have likely been allowed into the country.