194 réponses à ce sujet

[thegreateski]

Jory? Jory was going to try and desert.



Deserters get shot. or stabbed in this case.

[Bahlgan]

Well I will return on the forums later, I got about twenty minutes left before I must do micro economics homework. I will need more time tomorrow to continue this latah!

[Sarah1281]

How the heck does a forum topic about Jory turn into a fight about Loghain?

On page two it became about Adaia Tabris.



And I don't think that just because things don't play out a certain way in-game means that the possibility that they could have isn't valid. The characters don't have meta-gaming future knowledge when making their decisions, after all.

[punkioinapit713]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I still don't think just throwing his troops away would have been a smart plan. If there was no way to win then he should not have charged. We don't know that, however, and if you want to think that throwing his troops as the darkspawn and hoping that they do kill enough of them to make it worth it would have been better then that's fine because we don't know.

And the reason the Orlesians aren't an issue is because Loghain has his guards forcing them to stay at the border for months on end. We don't know what they would have done had they been allowed in (and I don't blame him for not wanting the chevaliers of all people to be allowed in given their sanctioned abilitiy to do whatever the hell they want to the commoners and raped Loghain's own mother while he watched before killing her in front of him) but you can't say Loghain dying would have kept them a non-issue because had he died they would have likely been allowed into the country.

True, Loghain and his troops may have been lost. My point was siding with your "Friend" about his loyalties. That's all. Davith would have died, He has more  balls then Loghain. ( Possibly every other Character in the game, though sadly we will never truely know...) Long live Davith!!!!

As for the Orlesians you said that Loghain beat back twice the amout of forces then that which was being sent to reinforce Ostagar. Seeing how Loghain was a panty waste compared to the PC, (and Davith...) the Orlesians would have been crushed.

If Maric and Loghain could repel the Orlesians then the PC with the armies he/she amasses to take on the Blight could stop the Orlesians.

Remember the Orlesians would still have to help those who survived Ostagar beat back the blight before they could even hope to take over Ferelden. By then they would have lost a considerable amount of their fighting force.

If Loghain were to have survived Ostagar he (if clever enough) could have decieved the Orlesians into taking the lead in the fight against the blight and let them face the blight alone, setting them up to lose a considerable amout of their fighting force. As he did when he betrayed his King and the Wardens. Then the PC, Loghain and any others could have finished the Orlesians, pushing them out of Ferelden.

Then Loghain could have killed off the PC or had him/her and anyone else he wanted to be rid off killed off while running the Orlesians through. Menipulating events so that they died as "heros" of Ferelden in the fight against the Orlesians.

Huge gamble though, if he was truely a master tactian, as he is said to be. Working such maters out would not be beyond him.  Loghain would have been a "Hero"... A Backstabbing arseclown of a "hero" yet, still a "hero".

Name a new ruler= his daughter as Queen of Ferelden, get some dude to knock her up= King, Prince/Princess.
and raise his station as high as he wishes within Ferelden, all the while erasing any clues of what had really happened.

[Sarah1281]

As for the Orlesians you said that Loghain beat back twice the amout of forces then that which was being sent to reinforce Ostagar. Seeing how Loghain was a panty waste compared to the PC, (and Davith...) the Orlesians would have been crushed.

Did I say he beat back twice that number? I meant half. There were two legions at River Dane.

If Maric and Loghain could repel the Orlesians then the PC with the armies he/she amasses to take on the Blight could stop the Orlesians.

Except Eamon has the biggest army if Loghain and his forces are dead and he's poisoned. And you don't have an army yet. Besides, if the Orlesians come in and stop the Blight you won't have gathered an army to beat them back should they decide to stay. And the treaties only oblige them to help against the Blight, not with Ferelden's sovereignty problems.

Remember the Orlesians would still have to help those who survived Ostagar beat back the blight before they could even hope to take over Ferelden. By then they would have lost a considerable amount of their fighting force.

I refuse to believe that more people would have survived Ostagar if Loghain had charged then the entirety of Loghain's troopse who ALL survived and the few who made it out of Ostagar.

[punkioinapit713]

Sarah1281 wrote...

How the heck does a forum topic about Jory turn into a fight about Loghain?

On page two it became about Adaia Tabris.

And I don't think that just because things don't play out a certain way in-game means that the possibility that they could have isn't valid. The characters don't have meta-gaming future knowledge when making their decisions, after all.

Good point... I missed that part. I didn't read it, like no one bothered to read my cool little "What if". LOL!

Anyway, I know it's all about throwing ideas out. I'm not all "HULK SMASH!!!" about this stuff.

I'm just playing at playing.

Modifié par punkioinapit713, 19 juillet 2010 - 03:23 .

[punkioinapit713]

Sarah1281 wrote...

As for the Orlesians you said that Loghain beat back twice the amout of forces then that which was being sent to reinforce Ostagar. Seeing how Loghain was a panty waste compared to the PC, (and Davith...) the Orlesians would have been crushed.

Did I say he beat back twice that number? I meant half. There were two legions at River Dane.

If Maric and Loghain could repel the Orlesians then the PC with the armies he/she amasses to take on the Blight could stop the Orlesians.

Except Eamon has the biggest army if Loghain and his forces are dead and he's poisoned. And you don't have an army yet. Besides, if the Orlesians come in and stop the Blight you won't have gathered an army to beat them back should they decide to stay. And the treaties only oblige them to help against the Blight, not with Ferelden's sovereignty problems.

Remember the Orlesians would still have to help those who survived Ostagar beat back the blight before they could even hope to take over Ferelden. By then they would have lost a considerable amount of their fighting force.

I refuse to believe that more people would have survived Ostagar if Loghain had charged then the entirety of Loghain's troopse who ALL survived and the few who made it out of Ostagar.

You got me on the River Dane part. I don't recall any of that... Is that in the codex or part of the two novels that were published about Maric and Logahain?

Ok the idea of the Orlesians being around, pretty much assumes that Loghain didn't stall them and that they weren't late. With that in mind would most of the forces at Ostagar not survive? Maybe I assume too much. Just a thought. ( This isn't me backhanding you by the way, its just rolling thoughts around... Just so you know.)

If the Orlesians weren't late and aided Cailan, Loghain, Duncan and their forces could they have won Ostagar and pushed back the blight? If not they all die and PC and Alaistar live thanks to Flemeth. PC would us the Treaties to form an army while the blight would be building their forces back up after Ostagar. Then PC would only have the blight to worry about and possibly the Orlesians invasian force... If the Orlesians meant to tak Ferelden.

From RtO it would seem that the Orlesians did not have those intentions yet, this is DA so they may have had such motives.

I don't mean you don't have good points just they seem a little... Paper strong... Yes, I know my points( by they way they are only thought or theories, not "points", not "pure facts". Just what ifs to wrap your mind around) are pretty weak.

Yet, holes are easily punched into any argument, theory of topic.

[Sarah1281]

Paper strong? What do you mean?



The Blight could not have been ended at Ostagar as the very first time the Archdemon shows itself abve ground is at Denerim at the end. We don't know if they were stopped at the border by Loghain's men at that point or if Loghain just heard the news that they wanted to bring the four legions with them. Cailan seemed to think it was a matter of not waiting for them so I guess it depends if you think Loghain could/would have stopped them and hid this from Cailan.



Had the four legions made it then perhaps it could have been a victory - we don't know just how many darkwpawn were available at the time - but all that would have meant was less ground taken by darkspawn over the next year as the Blight couldn't be over any sooner.

[Guns]

I don't think Duncan had the right to kill him. He was a father and a husband who had much to live for and was not warned that he risked losing it, outside of dying against the darkspawn, when he was recruited. I wouldn't intervened personally but it appears Bioware can't have us not following their story can they. <_<

[balmung03]

Duncan (paraphrased): The Grey Wardens pay a heavy price to become what we are. Fate may decree that you pay this price now rather than later.

(essentially stating that the Joining can be fatal)

Jory (paraphrased): Let's get on with it, then.

Jory still may be a husband and father, but it is also well-known (as stated by many people in both origin stories and in the main part of the game) that being a Grey Warden means leaving your old life behind. Add to that how Duncan alludes to the potential to not survive the Joining and Jory doesn't opt out until he actually witnesses it, and I'm surprised that Jory was able to even make it to that part of the game.

[CoM Solaufein]

You pull a weapon on someone, you better be prepared to use it. Jory did this to Duncan and Duncan had no choice but to defend himself.

[Captain Jazz]

I don't really want to get into the Loghain : Ashhole or Nashhole discussion... but I'm going to - I think he was a self serving traitor and a failure of an advisor, but he did the right thing by pulling his troops from Ostagar. Without those troops Ferelden would be near enough defenseless against the year of Darkspawn assault that followed, the chances of any significant number of that army surviving the battle were minimal and, let's face it, the Blight wouldn't have been slowed very much. Duncan tells you as you arrive in Ostagar that many battles have been fought and won, but that the Darkspawn always turn out in greater numbers for the next battle.
The Darkspawn are a swarm, not an army, they would barely feel the loss at Ostagar and the cost to Ferelden would be far too great. The only way that the battle of Ostagar could have been successful, as far as I can see, is if Cailan had been willing to wait for Orlesian and Redcliffe troops.
Loghain, wanky bastard that he is, did the right thing... in that one situation... from then on he seems to strive for the end of Ferelden, but given his state by the Landsmeet, I think we can put that down to being gripped by maddening paranoia.

Guns wrote...

I don't think Duncan had the right to kill him. He was a father and a husband who had much to live for and was not warned that he risked losing it, outside of dying against the darkspawn, when he was recruited.

It is apparently well known that Grey Wardens leave their lives behind them when they join the order... Jory went out of his way to impress Duncan for the chance to be recruited. I don't know, it seems like he shouldn't have put himself forward for recruitment if he didn't want to leave his family. As for the risk of dying during the joining? Well, wouldn't you die if it would save your pretty wife?

Modifié par Captain Jazz, 19 juillet 2010 - 01:23 .

[Sarah1281]

Guns wrote...

I don't think Duncan had the right to kill him. He was a father and a husband who had much to live for and was not warned that he risked losing it, outside of dying against the darkspawn, when he was recruited. I wouldn't intervened personally but it appears Bioware can't have us not following their story can they. <_<

Why do people keep bringing up his pregnant wife? Do they think Duncan would have been perfectly justified in killing him had Jory been single? Really? If not, then it's not really relevant and it's a pretty shoddy reason not to kill your security leak.

It is apparently well known that Grey Wardens leave their lives behind them when they join the order... Jory went out of his way to impress Duncan for the chance to be recruited. I don't know, it seems like he shouldn't have put himself forward for recruitment if he didn't want to leave his family. As for the risk of dying during the joining? Well, wouldn't you die if it would save your pretty wife?

Is it? No one really seems to be aware of this, the Wardens in Awakening still had their families even if they couldn't see them all the time, and it really seems to just be a GW policy to try and keep the recruits focused on fighting darkspawn and not, say, getting involved with the mage/Chantry struggle or working to improve conditions in the Alienage.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 19 juillet 2010 - 02:00 .

[Beerfish]

The Grey Wardens are a very very flawed group and creating many numbers of them at the cost it takes is not sensible. I can't remember what the exact estimation of how many actually survive the joining but many many great fighters and loyal fighters are killed for no good reason at all. The joining helps the Wardens find or sense the dark spawn but it does nothing to enhance their fighting skills and in fact the Wardens got their asses kicked in just about every major battle in the series so far. Along the way the likes of Jory and Mhari die for no good reason.



The need for a few top end wardens is of course a must due to defeating that arch demon but swelling the ranks of the Wardens at the cost of so very many good fighters is crazy in my opinion. And thus when Jory tries to back out of the ritual (one that none of these people are told about before hand) it didn't lessen my opinion of him. He was a champion of his region and though prepared to die fighting the dark spawn he was not prepared to die just drinking from a chalice.

[Herr Uhl]

Beerfish wrote...

The Grey Wardens are a very very flawed group and creating many numbers of them at the cost it takes is not sensible. I can't remember what the exact estimation of how many actually survive the joining but many many great fighters and loyal fighters are killed for no good reason at all. The joining helps the Wardens find or sense the dark spawn but it does nothing to enhance their fighting skills and in fact the Wardens got their asses kicked in just about every major battle in the series so far. Along the way the likes of Jory and Mhari die for no good reason.

The need for a few top end wardens is of course a must due to defeating that arch demon but swelling the ranks of the Wardens at the cost of so very many good fighters is crazy in my opinion. And thus when Jory tries to back out of the ritual (one that none of these people are told about before hand) it didn't lessen my opinion of him. He was a champion of his region and though prepared to die fighting the dark spawn he was not prepared to die just drinking from a chalice.

It is a positive to be immune to ghoulification too. It would be hard to avoid all that ichor (or blood) that darkspawn spray all over the place.

[Captain Jazz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

The Grey Wardens are a very very flawed group and creating many numbers of them at the cost it takes is not sensible. I can't remember what the exact estimation of how many actually survive the joining but many many great fighters and loyal fighters are killed for no good reason at all. The joining helps the Wardens find or sense the dark spawn but it does nothing to enhance their fighting skills and in fact the Wardens got their asses kicked in just about every major battle in the series so far. Along the way the likes of Jory and Mhari die for no good reason.

The need for a few top end wardens is of course a must due to defeating that arch demon but swelling the ranks of the Wardens at the cost of so very many good fighters is crazy in my opinion. And thus when Jory tries to back out of the ritual (one that none of these people are told about before hand) it didn't lessen my opinion of him. He was a champion of his region and though prepared to die fighting the dark spawn he was not prepared to die just drinking from a chalice.

It is a positive to be immune to ghoulification too. It would be hard to avoid all that ichor (or blood) that darkspawn spray all over the place.

The ability to kill an archdemon is also a plus...

[Herr Uhl]

Captain Jazz wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

The Grey Wardens are a very very flawed group and creating many numbers of them at the cost it takes is not sensible. I can't remember what the exact estimation of how many actually survive the joining but many many great fighters and loyal fighters are killed for no good reason at all. The joining helps the Wardens find or sense the dark spawn but it does nothing to enhance their fighting skills and in fact the Wardens got their asses kicked in just about every major battle in the series so far. Along the way the likes of Jory and Mhari die for no good reason.

The need for a few top end wardens is of course a must due to defeating that arch demon but swelling the ranks of the Wardens at the cost of so very many good fighters is crazy in my opinion. And thus when Jory tries to back out of the ritual (one that none of these people are told about before hand) it didn't lessen my opinion of him. He was a champion of his region and though prepared to die fighting the dark spawn he was not prepared to die just drinking from a chalice.

It is a positive to be immune to ghoulification too. It would be hard to avoid all that ichor (or blood) that darkspawn spray all over the place.

The ability to kill an archdemon is also a plus...

But that was mentioned in the previous post.

[Beerfish]

Captain Jazz wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

The Grey Wardens are a very very flawed group and creating many numbers of them at the cost it takes is not sensible. I can't remember what the exact estimation of how many actually survive the joining but many many great fighters and loyal fighters are killed for no good reason at all. The joining helps the Wardens find or sense the dark spawn but it does nothing to enhance their fighting skills and in fact the Wardens got their asses kicked in just about every major battle in the series so far. Along the way the likes of Jory and Mhari die for no good reason.

The need for a few top end wardens is of course a must due to defeating that arch demon but swelling the ranks of the Wardens at the cost of so very many good fighters is crazy in my opinion. And thus when Jory tries to back out of the ritual (one that none of these people are told about before hand) it didn't lessen my opinion of him. He was a champion of his region and though prepared to die fighting the dark spawn he was not prepared to die just drinking from a chalice.

It is a positive to be immune to ghoulification too. It would be hard to avoid all that ichor (or blood) that darkspawn spray all over the place.

The ability to kill an archdemon is also a plus...

You must have missed the part of my post that said  "The need for a few top end wardens is of course a must due to defeating
that arch demon "

[balmung03]

True enough, but no one knows when exactly Blights will start. Having to round up every capable fighter once a Blight is sensed and go through the Joining for them might not be a very good option. It probably wouldn't work out this way, but how silly would it look if all of your 'best' that weren't put through the Joining died during it when the Blight came? The Grey Wardens need to keep their numbers up at all times for the worst case scenario. There isn't exactly an "in case of Archdemon, break glass" solution.



Also, only having a few GWs might be a good idea, but say you only have 10 of them since you didn't want all of the other candidates to die meaninglessly. While they charge toward the Archdemon, there's a chance that they'll be killed before they reach her. What do you do then?

[Bahlgan]

punkioinapit713 wrote...

True, Loghain and his troops may have been lost. My point was siding with your "Friend" about his loyalties. That's all. Davith would have died, He has more  balls then Loghain. ( Possibly every other Character in the game, though sadly we will never truely know...) Long live Davith!!!!

Daveth may indeed have been one of the noblest of souls in Dragon Age, but I see it because perhaps he had nothing else to lose, therefore he had no other choice, or he saw no other way to go out. Jory had family, and a lot more to lose in general than Daveth. Thus I can certainly place my feet in Jory's shoes. Just consider that Daveth would have made great fire wood if not for Duncan coming to the rescue of him

Remember the Orlesians would still have to help those who survived Ostagar beat back the blight before they could even hope to take over Ferelden. By then they would have lost a considerable amount of their fighting force.

The worst that could have happened is that if the Orlesians decided to launch an invasion after helping the Fereldens defeat the Blight would be that the Fereldens could use that event as the perfect leverage to never trust them again, EVER!!
 

A Backstabbing arseclown of a "hero" yet, still a "hero".

Much as I would have enjoyed the **** out of sacrificing Loghain with my evil character while fighting the Archdemon, it would have made him look more the martyr and hero than ever before. I was not going to make Loghain look good any time soon, so I decided to kill the Archdemon myself and to let Loghain live more days with his cynical villainy.

You pull a weapon on someone, you better be prepared to use it. Jory did this to Duncan and Duncan had no choice but to defend himself.

I appreciate Duncan and love him as a mentor and all (forgive me, it IS a game, but a role-playing game) he could have chosen to incapacitate Jory instead. Rogues are supposedly very good at disarming targets.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 19 juillet 2010 - 08:58 .

[Sarah1281]

The worst that could have happened is that if the Orlesians decided to launch an invasion after helping the Fereldens defeat the Blight would be that the Fereldens could use that event as the perfect leverage to never trust them again, EVER!!

The worst? What about the eighty years or so they occupied Ferelden just thirty years previous and all the atrocities they committed then! And yet Cailan still trusted Celene. Besides, most people weren't sure it was a Blight because there was no Archdemon in sight and the darkspawn weren't really invading the country as of yet, just amassing. If there's no Blight, they need welcome in no Orlesians.

I appreciate Duncan and love him as a mentor and all (forgive me, it IS a game, but a role-playing game) he could have chosen to incapacitate Jory instead. Rogues are supposedly very good at disarming targets.

And then what? There's no way he's going to keep quiet about what he knows and, regardless of whether this is right or wrong, the GWs believe that some of their more questionable possibly-blood-magic practices need to be a secret.

[Tirigon]

A very interesting essay.



Personally, though, I have to disagree that Jory´s death was in some way justified.

Still, Jory’s death illustrates one point that many players miss – the Blights are more important than any one man, any one individual.

This is were I disagree. I have never seen any importance in humanity in general. What is important is the individual - the collective can go to hell for all I care.

The Wardens do put stopping the Blights about the life of individual people, and this, imo, is their greatest fault.

[Sarah1281]

And how would you propose they stop Blights without sacrificing individuals?

[Captain Jazz]

Beerfish wrote...

Captain Jazz wrote...
The ability to kill an archdemon is also a plus...

You must have missed the part of my post that said  "The need for a few top end wardens is of course a must due to defeating
that arch demon "

I did indeeed miss that part of the post... it took several reads of the post to find that comment. I just looked at the first paragraph which seemed to be saying that the Grey Wardens are essentially useless and assumed that was what you meant.
Surely the need for a warden to kill the archdemon is the best reason ever to have as many joined wardens as possible? The small number of wardens in Ferelden was no doubt responsible for the overall warden count dropping to 2 after Ostagar (if there were more wardens then the battle might have gone more favourably, leading to more survivors, or you might have met a contingent marching down from Lothering as you marched toward it or somesuch?)

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And how would you propose they stop Blights without sacrificing individuals?

By killing darkspawn. And then, by killing MORE darkspawn.

And after these idiots have realized this doesn´t help by allying with the Architect. If you have read "The Calling" you know that he has the power to kill the Old Gods, thus ending the Blights forever.