194 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Jazz]

Tirigon wrote...

This is were I disagree. I have never seen any importance in humanity in general. What is important is the individual - the collective can go to hell for all I care.
The Wardens do put stopping the Blights about the life of individual people, and this, imo, is their greatest fault.

Indeed, individuals are capable of far greater things than the collective... but how do individuals exist without the collective? If everyone is dead, it doesn't matter how wonderful the individual corpses can be.

[Sarah1281]

So he claims. He's yet to kill one OG and he started a Blight. Besides, spending your life killing darkspawn as a non-Warden is a huge sacrifice as well and could turn you into a ghoul.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The worst? What about the eighty years or so they occupied Ferelden just thirty years previous and all the atrocities they committed then! And yet Cailan still trusted Celene. Besides, most people weren't sure it was a Blight because there was no Archdemon in sight and the darkspawn weren't really invading the country as of yet, just amassing. If there's no Blight, they need welcome in no Orlesians.

Do you actually hate Orlesians? This seems to be a personal matter at this point. You talked about it earlier with the Exalted March that the Chantry should "let it slide" when it came to Burkel's wrongful murder, yet you refuse to "let it slide" with what happened between the Orlesians and Ferelden.

Sure, it's so much harder to let it go than Burkel, him being only one person, and the raped wives and slain soldiers from Orlais, but honestly, if a Blight is not enough reason to end the quarrel, what is? WHAT IS? Will we just have to sit on our thumbs and wait for the Darkspawn to run the Fereldens out instead of dealing with the issue, even if it takes assistance? I am one for fighting the common enemy, and dealing with the past later!

And then what? There's no way he's going to keep quiet about what he knows and, regardless of whether this is right or wrong, the GWs believe that some of their more questionable possibly-blood-magic practices need to be a secret.

According to what I heard, all that is relative in the end. The Grey Wardens and alot of their secrets were said to be out in the open to dry like laundry in the backyard starting in Awakening. If not Jory, then it would be "whoever else" to spoil some of the secrets to the Grey Wardens. So in the end; killing Jory for sake of keeping information IS not only a cold, calculating, robot decision, it also happened to NOT do anything to keep the leak of secrets from spilling.

This is were I disagree. I have never seen any importance in humanity in general. What is important is the individual - the collective can go to hell for all I care.

The Wardens do put stopping the Blights about the life of individual people, and this, imo, is their greatest fault

BAM!! Shake N Bake!! This is a poster after my own heart!! Couldn't have said it any better myself!!

Modifié par Bahlgan, 19 juillet 2010 - 09:25 .

[Sarah1281]

I don't hate Orlesians but an eighty-year occupation with many abuses is going to cause lots of hatred. You say that a Blight is a reason to overlook that. I said that most people at Ostagar do not believe that there's a Blight. If it's just an incursion like they think then there isn't any need to bring in the Orlesians. They feel that a darkspawn incursion has less potential for harm than inviting the Orlesians back and losing their country. They might even be right. They just really underestimated just how bad the 'incursion' actually was.



And the Burkel thing is completly seperate. I'm saying that a Surface (and mostly Orlesian since that's their Vatican) organization like the Chantry should not interfere with another countries sovereignty over one man's death even if he was a priest. That is not the same as saying that a country that had invaded Ferelden previously, has previously used a Blight as an excuse to conquer a country, and who many people still hate and distrust would not want to invite them back in even if a Blight might force their hand.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So he claims. He's yet to kill one OG and he started a Blight. Besides, spending your life killing darkspawn as a non-Warden is a huge sacrifice as well and could turn you into a ghoul.

But it is a sacrifice done VOLUNTARILY.

The Wardens are a good thing in general, but the conscripting stuff and the "no way back" bullsh!t sucks.
People should join them voluntarily, not forced, and if they change their mind they should be allowed to do so.

[Bahlgan]

I said that most people at Ostagar do not believe that there's a Blight. If it's just an incursion like they think then there isn't any need to bring in the Orlesians. They feel that a darkspawn incursion has less potential for harm than inviting the Orlesians back and losing their country. They might even be right. They just really underestimated just how bad the 'incursion' actually was.

Whether they thought it was a Blight or not is irrelevant. It WAS a blight. And even before so, the last battle ended up the darkspawn outnumbering the fighters at Ostagar. I would be ****ting my pants if I saw my character being outnumbered. Why if the US was about to be attacked by China, and the UK offered help (depsite their past in the Revolutionary War) I would say "**** yea guys! Come on over here and help us out!!" lol



...Of course if they decide to try and rule us afterwards, that WOULD be quite an afternoon tea gone wrong..

[Sarah1281]

It's not irrelevent whether they thought there was a Blight. They felt there was not a Blight and so why would they act like there was and let the Orlesians in? They cannot act in accordance with their actually being a Blight if they are unaware. And the last battle at Ostagar was a little late to call in reinforcements. Maybe Loghain should have realized it was a Blight after Ostagar like you and Alistair did but he was in some serious denial at that point. He is not nearly rational about the Orlesians and all the other lords were either dead or hadn't gone to Ostagar and so wouldn't know.



Besides, the Revolutionary War is a pretty bad example since it was over 200 years ago. I'm sure in 200 years if Orlais behaves itself then Ferelden will no longer care about the occupation.

[Bahlgan]

Besides, the Revolutionary War is a pretty bad example since it was over 200 years ago. I'm sure in 200 years if Orlais behaves itself then Ferelden will no longer care about the occupation.

The Quartering Act and others were bad enough.

[Sarah1281]

And things still weren't settled by the War of 1812.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

I think the closest RL example would be if North Korea offered to help South Korea fight off in invasion on their southern edge.



You have two countries with a very recent case of bad blood against eachother. A good chunk of the Fereldan populouce still remember from personnal experience the abuses of the Orlaisan forces. While I, personally, think Cailan's idea was a good one, I can understand why Loghain and others would object to it. Their inviting a military force of a country they only just recently expelled from their lands after three generations of occupation.

[RavenousBear]

Sorry, but the US is a major world power while Ferelden is considered a backwards nation in Thedas. You are trying to compare a David to a Goliath.

[Bahlgan]

Caak7i wrote...

Sorry, but the US is a major world power while Ferelden is considered a backwards nation in Thedas. You are trying to compare a David to a Goliath.

TODAY the US is a world power. Back before we pushed back England, we were a sorry ***excuse of a nation, we weren't even declared as a nation until the very moment we started to stand up against the King.

Edit: Apparently the censored word was not done so before, my bad

Modifié par Bahlgan, 20 juillet 2010 - 12:08 .

[RavenousBear]

Bahlgan wrote...

Caak7i wrote...

Sorry, but the US is a major world power while Ferelden is considered a backwards nation in Thedas. You are trying to compare a David to a Goliath.

TODAY the US is a world power. Back before we pushed back England, we were a sorry ***excuse of a nation, we weren't even declared as a nation until the very moment we started to stand up against the King.

Edit: Apparently the censored word was not done so before, my bad

Of course, Rome was not built in one day. Being born here in the US, I know it was once a collection British colonies before declaring Independence. When I read your post, I seemed like to me you were talking about the country in its present form. 

Regardless, unless I am mistaken, Ferelden was never a colony for the Orlesian Empire. It was its own sovereign state before with a Theirin ancestor as King being invaded and conquered by the Orlesians. I really do not see too many similarities between the US back in the 1700's and Ferelden in its current state.

[Tirigon]

Caak7i wrote...

Regardless, unless I am mistaken, Ferelden was never a colony for the Orlesian Empire. It was its own sovereign state before with a Theirin ancestor as King being invaded and conquered by the Orlesians. I really do not see too many similarities between the US back in the 1700's and Ferelden in its current state.

There aren´t many except that both were not the strongest in the world, and both were inhabited by humans (and, to be nitpicking, not even that is totally true as in Ferelden there are dwarves and elves, not only humans).

Modifié par Tirigon, 20 juillet 2010 - 12:50 .

[punkioinapit713]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The worst that could have happened is that if the Orlesians decided to launch an invasion after helping the Fereldens defeat the Blight would be that the Fereldens could use that event as the perfect leverage to never trust them again, EVER!!

The worst? What about the eighty years or so they occupied Ferelden just thirty years previous and all the atrocities they committed then! And yet Cailan still trusted Celene. Besides, most people weren't sure it was a Blight because there was no Archdemon in sight and the darkspawn weren't really invading the country as of yet, just amassing. If there's no Blight, they need welcome in no Orlesians.

I appreciate Duncan and love him as a mentor and all (forgive me, it IS a game, but a role-playing game) he could have chosen to incapacitate Jory instead. Rogues are supposedly very good at disarming targets.

And then what? There's no way he's going to keep quiet about what he
knows and, regardless of whether this is right or wrong, the GWs believe
that some of their more questionable possibly-blood-magic practices
need to be a secret.

OK, if you look at our real history
and compare it to DA you can see that there are some examples where you
could show that the Orlesians may have changed.

Celene was not
in charge of the Orlesians 30 years ago. Much may have changed, Cailan
is not half the man Maric was. So, it could be prosumed that the
Orlesians may have changed and truely wished to unite with Ferelden as
ALLIES and not CONQUERORS. Really, think about it. There is more than
one way to look at it.

Ok know for the other part....


I myself as well as others have brought this up. Now come on, if your only excuse for Duncan being right is because poor, dumb, scared, Jory was going to let the cat out of the bag. Then you have a very weak f*cking argument my friend.

We are in DA right a world of magic and splinder and all that jazz.. If mages can do mistifing mind blowing stuff with magic. Why would it seem uncomprehdable that maybe, just maybe that could conjure up an quick little spell to make sure he can't say anything about the Wardens.

Or how I put it in a post that wasn't read, why not, disarm him and threaten him bluntly and openly telling him one last time. Dink the F*cking Kool Aid 50/50 chance you may die or don't drink the F*cking Kool Aid and you die now. If he lives through the joining, which I'm sure he wouldn't. Then you could use some spell on him to make sure he wouldn't become a liablity.

If you could use a spell on the mages to make them tranqil then why couldn't you us a spell on non-magic users that would make them unable to spill the beans about something? Really, you can make someone forget and be unable to use magic yet, not forget and be unable to speak about something? Seems the later would be easier than the former.

[Sarah1281]

Magic can't do anything. Clearly people don't know how to make others forget things or to force them to stay quiet or they would already be utilizing those skills. You'd think, for instance, that magic could have ways to communicate instantaneously over long distances. Well that's not possible or at least has not been discovered either. Despite how overpowered magic is in the game it can't be used for every little thing you dream up. And you realize that what he did is pretty more desertion, right? How do you think a real army would handle him trying to leave and even drawing his weapon on his would-be commanding officer?

And it doesn't really matter how sincere Celene was with her 'let's have peace!' talks with Cailan. Who she is and what she wants has nothing to do with the strong lingering paranoia most in Ferelden have. If it was an emergency they may have consented to letting them in to save themselves. At Ostagar they did not believe it was an emergency so they didn't

Edit: Being Tranquil has nothing to do with losing your memory. You remember everything, you just got cut off from the Fade so you lose your emotions as a side-effect of losing your magic, which seems to come from a connection to the Fade.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 juillet 2010 - 01:04 .

[RavenousBear]

To be fair, if I was in Jory's situation and I saw what happened to Daveth, I would have no idea how I would react. Though there are clues on what will occur during the Joining (like for instance, collecting Darkspawn blood that the recruits must get for themselves), I would not be thrilled to learn the ugly truth on how a Warden is made.

Yes, technically what Jory did was desertation and for that he can be executed. However, I do not see him as a huge threat against a seasoned veteran like Duncan who could have disarmed Jory and give him a second chance to drink the blood. Fighting in tournaments with fixed rules is not as tough as fighting hordes of Darkspawn. However, if Jory refused the second offer, unfortunately I cannot see how you can keep Jory alive and keep the Joining Ritual details as a secret. As long as he can talk and write, there is always the possibility of him spilling the beans to other people.  If there was a way and if I was Duncan, I would take it.

[Bahlgan]

I will be completely left minded about my opinion this time on Duncan:

Jory did not deserve to die. End of story. Call him a coward if you will, but only a sarcastic, sadistic, hopeless glutton for punishment would enjoy someone like Jory dying. No matter what the reason, his death was in vain and was undeserved.

Or how I put it in a post that wasn't read, why not, disarm him and threaten him bluntly and openly telling him one last time. Dink the F*cking Kool Aid 50/50 chance you may die or don't drink the F*cking Kool Aid and you die now. If he lives through the joining, which I'm sure he wouldn't. Then you could use some spell on him to make sure he wouldn't become a liablity.

If you could use a spell on the mages to make them tranqil then why couldn't you us a spell on non-magic users that would make them unable to spill the beans about something? Really, you can make someone forget and be unable to use magic.

I would love for that, but let's face it, magic has its limitations in DA:O. In fact, teleportation is not possible via magic; at least not now.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 20 juillet 2010 - 02:06 .

[Sarah1281]

He might not have DESERVED dying but Duncan did feel that it was NECESSARY. Would forcing him to do the Joining be any kinder? And if he had survived would it have made him keep quiet about the Joining any more? And I know, what people do and do not know seems to vary. It seems to me that people know that there is a GW initiation called the Joining and that not everyone makes it through it. They don't know that they're drinking darkspawn blood and becoming tainted creatures themselves. That would not go over well.

[Bahlgan]

But they DO know about it. They were told right before doing the joining how it was done!

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

But they DO know about it. They were told right before doing the joining how it was done!

Yes, recruits like Jory know which is why he can't be allowed to live. Everyone who hasn't happened to have been a Warden recruit doesn't know the details although how much people like the mages who help prepare the Joining and, say, Varel know is debateable. Still, they're clearly trusted to keep their mouths shut and Jory clearly isn't.

[punkioinapit713]

Ok, I'm done. Duncan is wrong when he killed Jory and Karma got his ass. I laugh ever time I see him get what was coming to him. I could only dream how the dark spawn ripped him limb from limb.



Fereldens need to get over what the Orlesians did 30 years ago and become allies with them.

Japan got a bomb dropped on two of their cities and the US occupied them and the international community took away their stanting armies and downgraded them to only having a defense force. Yeah, I know that isn't from back in 1400 or before, around the timeline DA:O probably would have been in if it were real. Yet, come on get the hell over it. 30 years, 3 decades, 3 generations ago. Get Over It.



But, in all honesty Jory and the Orlesians don't matter much to me, compared to Davith.





LONG LIVE DAVITH!!!!

[Time4Tiddy]

Keep in mind that Jory doesn't just cross his arms and say "I won't drink it, you can't make me." He actually draws his sword and switches to a fighting stance. To me that is serious business, and Duncan dealt with it.

[Time4Tiddy]

punkioinapit713 wrote...

But, in all honesty Jory and the Orlesians don't matter much to me, compared to Davith.


LONG LIVE DAVITH!!!!

Poor Daveth.  Not only is he a much more interesting and able party member than Jory, but he's a stone fox.  I always wished there was a short seduction option after you overhear him getting shot down by that blond warrior chick.  Well, not so much shot down, I guess, as she just completely ignores him and walks away.  LOL.

[Tirigon]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

Keep in mind that Jory doesn't just cross his arms and say "I won't drink it, you can't make me." He actually draws his sword and switches to a fighting stance. To me that is serious business, and Duncan dealt with it.

Nevertheless, Duncan could have said" Allright, f*ck off if you´re still here in an hour you´re dead". That would have been enough to get rid of him - there is no need to kill him outright.