194 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Fereldens need to get over what the Orlesians did 30 years ago and become allies with them.



Japan got a bomb dropped on two of their cities and the US occupied them and the international community took away their stanting armies and downgraded them to only having a defense force. Yeah, I know that isn't from back in 1400 or before, around the timeline DA:O probably would have been in if it were real. Yet, come on get the hell over it. 30 years, 3 decades, 3 generations ago. Get Over It.

It's not just blind hatred. They're genuinely terrified that Orlais will occupy them AGAIN. Maybe that doesn't matter to you but I can see why they'd want to keep Orlais at an arm's length to make sure they don't invite the people who have conquered them in the past and who may conquer them in the future back into the country. You can't really expect them to get over it that quickly.



And thirty years isn't three generations. It's a little over one generation and pretty much everyone in power remembers the occupatoin. Maybe they SHOULD put it all behind them but it's hardly surprising that they can't/won't.

[CalJones]

Not to mention that Orlais doesn't have the best track record when it comes to invasions. That and the fact that their chevaliers are still permitted to take any woman they want, whether she's willing or not. Invite a bunch of heavily armed rapists into Fereldan? Hell no. I'm with Loghain on this one.

[punkioinapit713]

Time4Tiddy wrote...

Keep in mind that Jory doesn't just cross his arms and say "I won't drink it, you can't make me." He actually draws his sword and switches to a fighting stance. To me that is serious business, and Duncan dealt with it.

Really... Fighting Stance... I remember that part very clearly, I watched it over and over a dozen times and all I remember is his sword being drawn and him backing away like a scared puppy. There isn't any kind of stance, not even a defensive one. He just backs away, other than having a sword, which he doesn't seem to even be holding too well, he is a non-threat.

To a vet that has been seen in the opening vid disarming then killing a darkspawn that was a threat, Jory is little more than a joke. Although, I believe Duncan should have diarmed Jory and Force him to drink or die, or just let the dumb bastard go. What was done was done and can't be changed for the sake of the canon and lore.

Yes I said possibly let the dumb oof go. Someone else mentioned that many people all round Ferelden seemed to have some accurate knowlege of the Wardens without perviously being Wardens. Also, that in Aweakening, the beans are spilled anyway so, WHO CARES! Furthermore, you could argue that no one would believe the guy anyway. "You were with the Wardens, found out their secrets and they let you go when you didn't make the cut... Yeah, right. Drunk."

Come on, he could easily be discredited.

Modifié par punkioinapit713, 22 juillet 2010 - 12:33 .

[Sarah1281]

The ONLY way Duncan could have let Jory go is if he didn't tell him what he was supposed to drink. All non-Wardens seem to know (and by non-Wardens we don't even mean average Joes but the freaking Queen of Ferelden and the GW's personal senechal) is that there is a ritual and it could kill them. That's hardly the same as knowing WHAT they're doing. Once Jory knew, though, he couldn't be allowed to live.

And the Chantry wouldn't just go 'oh, Jory's such a moron, of course he's lying', they'd investigate. They take allegations of blood magic VERY SERIOUSLY.

Edit: And unless you just have mad Jory love and feel he should be an exception, letting everyone who changes their mind go after telling them what the Joining is...how do you propose to discredit everyone who ever used to be a recruit telling the same story? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:13 .

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The ONLY way Duncan could have let Jory go is if he didn't tell him what he was supposed to drink. All non-Wardens seem to know (and by non-Wardens we don't even mean average Joes but the freaking Queen of Ferelden and the GW's personal senechal) is that there is a ritual and it could kill them. That's hardly the same as knowing WHAT they're doing. Once Jory knew, though, he couldn't be allowed to live.

And the Chantry wouldn't just go 'oh, Jory's such a moron, of course he's lying', they'd investigate. They take allegations of blood magic VERY SERIOUSLY.

Edit: And unless you just have mad Jory love and feel he should be an exception, letting everyone who changes their mind go after telling them what the Joining is...how do you propose to discredit everyone who ever used to be a recruit telling the same story? 

The big mistake of the Wardens is to keep the Joining secret to start with.

[Sarah1281]

Tirigon wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

The ONLY way Duncan could have let Jory go is if he didn't tell him what he was supposed to drink. All non-Wardens seem to know (and by non-Wardens we don't even mean average Joes but the freaking Queen of Ferelden and the GW's personal senechal) is that there is a ritual and it could kill them. That's hardly the same as knowing WHAT they're doing. Once Jory knew, though, he couldn't be allowed to live.

And the Chantry wouldn't just go 'oh, Jory's such a moron, of course he's lying', they'd investigate. They take allegations of blood magic VERY SERIOUSLY.

Edit: And unless you just have mad Jory love and feel he should be an exception, letting everyone who changes their mind go after telling them what the Joining is...how do you propose to discredit everyone who ever used to be a recruit telling the same story? 

The big mistake of the Wardens is to keep the Joining secret to start with.

I disagree. Strongly. How well do you really think the blood magic ritual that basically turns GWs into high-functioning ghouls would go over with the general population? Or the Chantry? Or, well, anyone? 

[Bahlgan]

People already seem to have spoiled secrets in Awakening. Whether or not Jory was spared wouldn't have mattered. There still would have been others to leak the secrets.

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

People already seem to have spoiled secrets in Awakening. Whether or not Jory was spared wouldn't have mattered. There still would have been others to leak the secrets.

The only one in Awakening that we know knows anything is Varel. He is trusted to keep those secrets. He may not know what is in the cup that they're drinking but someone clearly made a judgement call to trust him and in his codex they explain how unprecedented that is. Jory knowing would cause a problem. There's a difference between telling someone trusted and some random failed recruit.

I don't know why Duncan had to be honest with them but once he was there was no hope for Jory.

[Bahlgan]

Which is why killing Jory was a waste! Even if he was slain, wrongfully might I add, someone still managed to spoil it.

[Sarah1281]

No one 'spoils' it. Varel doesn't go around telling everybody! You could argue that Duncan didn't need to tell him too much to let him walk away but once that happens, the time for choices was past.

Edit: I know it seems like you can let one person know and live with Varel so why not Jory but with Varel it really is one person, the trusted Senechal of the GW's new Arling. If you spare Jory you have to spare everyone who ever changes their mind at the last second and that will lead to a leak.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 20 juillet 2010 - 04:45 .

[Homebound]

Melca36 wrote...

Jory said as he was prepared to fight Duncan....

"There is no glory in this."

The Wardens were not who they are for glory.

He deserved to die.

Not sure about "he deserved to die", but he was there for the wrong reasons. And that caught up to him quickly.

[Tirigon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I disagree. Strongly. How well do you really think the blood magic ritual that basically turns GWs into high-functioning ghouls would go over with the general population? Or the Chantry? Or, well, anyone? 

Intelligent people like me would see the need and the size of the Warden´s sacrifice and their respect for the Wardens would even grow.
Also, I´m totally pro Bloodmagic. It´s time for the bloodmages to make their strength known and educate the brainless chantry-zombies.

On the other hand, you´re right about the Chantry and the idiots opposing this practice. That´s why the Wardens should leave them to the Darkspawn, and the problem solves itself.

[Sarah1281]

Sure, intelligent people might respect them more. If they aren't in power, though, it won't matter. And if they are in power then if the masses demand that they stop supporting Wardens then they're not going to risk losing power over the issue. You can't expect masses, especially in places where people often freak out at the sight of mages and think they'll all be turned into toads, to behave intelligently.

[Bahlgan]

Yea I am not a freak about outlawing blood magic either, hell I enabled it to save Connor, as well as I spared the life of the last living blood mage in the tower to fend for herself. I am, however, more than willing to drop what little defense I offer it if the blood mages use their powers to sacrifice troops on the front lines to enable their magics to crush darkspawn. The point of the Wardens is to sacrifice enough to obtain victory; MY point is to sacrifice as little as possible. If I see that nothing, essentially, need be sacrificed to obtain victory, then all losses are considered murder.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

As much as I think the Chantry over reacts to anything that even hints of magic, doubly so if it might involve blood magic, they do have a point in thinking blood magic to be dangerous. It is, by game lore, something tought by demons of the Fade, mostly higher eschelon demons like desire and pride ones.



While I do believe that blood magic is, in itself, nothing more then a tool to be used for good or ill, it does lend itself to the 'ill' side more easily then others.



And with 9/10ths of the Thedas populus conditioned to thinking that blood magic is evil, I can mostly guess that was a factor in making Jory panic. He was generally accepting of the possability of dying before the ceremony, but at it, finding out it involved blood, known poisonus blood, as well as seeing Daveth die from it... *shrug*

[Bahlgan]

Liliandra Nadiar wrote...

And with 9/10ths of the Thedas populus conditioned to thinking that blood magic is evil, I can mostly guess that was a factor in making Jory panic. He was generally accepting of the possability of dying before the ceremony, but at it, finding out it involved blood, known poisonus blood, as well as seeing Daveth die from it... *shrug*

I never supported people saying Jory deserved to die, but this is further proof that Jory was probably paranoid about becoming a demon knight, or some sort of powerful warlock warrior. After all, it is possible that people could believe that the reason why Grey Wardens have the special powers to defeat the darkspawn is because that in more manners than one, the Grey Wardens ARE darkspawn via the joining. Jory might have feared becoming a darkspawn as well. Just a thought.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think he DESERVED to die but that his death was necessary once Duncan, for whatever reason, felt the need to spill some closely-guarded Warden secrets. And no, a select few (read: Anora and Varel) knowing that their is a Joining and possibly that it involves a drinking something and/or could kill you is not the same as them knowing about the darkspawn blood.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't think he DESERVED to die but that his death was necessary once Duncan, for whatever reason, felt the need to spill some closely-guarded Warden secrets. And no, a select few (read: Anora and Varel) knowing that their is a Joining and possibly that it involves a drinking something and/or could kill you is not the same as them knowing about the darkspawn blood.

RAAAAWWWWWWRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hush hush now, the post wasn't necessarily directed towards you, but there are still alot of sadistic and horrible shades who disagree with the two of us. Anyway I am gonna drop the Duncan issue, it doesn't seem to be going anywhere, the two of us (for example) are at an impass, and nothing will change from here on out about it.

To add to your blood comment:

It is different. Darkspawn blood alone is more contagious and dangerous, as it can either outright kill you (like the joining) or it can corrupt your mind, memories, and even eat away your existence until eventually, you WILL die. The joining, since controlled somewhat by a drop of Archdemon blood and a tad blood magic, can control the flow of corruption the darkspawn taint emits upon the imbiber. That's what I gather anyway.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:34 .

[punkioinapit713]

Ok I agree with Bahlgan, and now I see that Sarah isn't that far off with my/our thoughts.



Ducan did what he did yet, as you pointed out Sarah it doesn't seem right that he coughed up those secrets.Shadow of Light Dragon and I played with an idea back on page 4.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...



Really, Duncan should have shut up about the chalice containing darkspawn blood, blindfolded the recruits and told them to drink up.

I had a thought to add to that too. That was to have Alistair gather the blood secretly while the PC, Daveth and Jory would only be told about the treaties.



Think of that, have three Chalices, no one knows about the blood or any other secrets 'cause Duncan kept his mouth shut and Alistair gathered the blood in secret, and finally they are all forced to drink at the same time. Whoever survives gets to know the truth, whoever doesn't gets to be a mabari chew toy.

[Bahlgan]

Heh read that myself at some point. How true it is. But then again, I doubt Duncan would have been able to predict Jory's reaction, having gone "rogue" on his original decisions.



You two are right though. Probably a better idea not to spoil it until after you endure the joining. Then again, what if no one survives? There won't be anyone to tell why the joining killed them. It's as if they just died because of drinking a little Kool Aid or red fluid. lol