516 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Aermas wrote...

So the Jedi gave the character a mind wipe & a sex change?
The character in both KOTOR & KOTOR 2 is the same

Revan=The Exile? Since when?

[Aermas]

The only thing about Jellyfish's argument I don't like is that she limits the searcher from looking into the FAQ. It seems like Standard Operating Procedure to me to look into the FAQ.

[crimzontearz]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


that was the demo interface hon....


Same one used at Lucca and other major events.


I am wishing you all the luck in the world hell WE did have luck with the NG+ situation in ME2 even tho that sounded hopeless but this one decision is left to the marketing department alone and I have ZERO faith in them

At least it was showcased, and if that's one step to take, then let it be.


I would just love to see more women play the game, or at least an acknowledgement from the department that they appreciate both genders equally despite marketting materials. I say this because there are so few games that represent women, and bioware has potential to get a really nice female market when they've predominately been ignored by the industry.


Just tapping into it a little bit could reap some wonderful profits, and it legitimizes a lot of people's game playing experiences.


Thank you for the support, and I appreciate your concerns, but I don't think its anything to be concerned about. I just think its an issue that needs to be pressed.

it was showcased because both males and females would have played that gameat the conventions. Bioware DOES want people to know you can play male and female hawkes but they only want a male iconic character to establish brand awareness. Least that is what we were told. And remember, most of the time arguments like this are met with "we know better than you" responses....which is even worse

[Wishpig]

Aermas wrote...
So the Jedi gave the character a mind wipe & a sex change?
The character in both KOTOR & KOTOR 2 is the same

Two diffrent characters. Like DA:O to DA2!

Morroian wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

Thats kind of shallow don't you think.

We've had people swearing off DA2 because they can't play elves or dwarves, are they shallow too?

Hmmm... no I think thats diffrent.

A. Some people think it represents a "dumbing down" of the game.
B. Some people find playing humans boreing. Playing a dwarf or elf offers even more esacape, and thats what a game is all about.
C. You can think elves are awesome or dwarfs stupid. You think that about men vs women you are a sexest. So it is diffrent. Real genders vs nonexistent races of fantastical creatures.

Big dwarf fan myself, and while I would like to play as dwarfs, frankly... a good game comes first! Who knows maybe I'll have a richer experiance focusing on one race.

Modifié par Wishpig, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:18 .

[KIrving]

Aermas wrote...

The only thing about Jellyfish's argument I don't like is that she limits the searcher from looking into the FAQ. It seems like Standard Operating Procedure to me to look into the FAQ.

I do a lot of game research and I've rarely found a decent FAQ that actually gives out the answers to my questions.  It certainly wouldn't be my first stop unless something else has drawn me in.  FAQ's are generally sparse.

[HolyJellyfish]

What is this wrote...

Uck here we go again. 
1. I ussually look my games up on youtube b4 i play them. Just because they're not official dosen't mean they don't count

2. They have only shown a glimpes of everything on the website, i think they have like 15 screenshots total and only 1 actual gameplay video.  It's early on they will release more screens of FEm hawke closer to release, and it only does take a few minutes to find out that info, But you're missing the point how many Ladies do you think actually visit the site at all? Or even know dragon age exsist, it's an incredibly small market and those who know about DA and are intrested in it probaly will look under game info to know what they're going to buy. Is anyone really going to simply look at the homepage and say"oh looks it's a male F*** this game i won't look anymore into it"  Marketing is targeting there core demographic.

3. How do you expect them to Niche into a female demograhpic when there is none to be had?Under 10% of gamers are female even less are probaly into tactical story heavy RPGS. They will release Official femhawke screenshots closer to release. the game is still 4months away and have revealed next to nothing at all. But it's ridicolous to expect them to release a screenshot of Femhawke in every in game position considering most female players i Imagine will change her to there liking. Each screenshot they release draws more criticism on the game as well, DA2 isn't a pretty game from what we've seen so far and each screenshotreinforces that. sometimes the less they know the better.
and to the sterotyped marketing bit:
Sterotyped marketing lol? that's not even a proper term. If a man writes a chick Flick does that mean it's for men?
You may not be asking for much in YOUR view, but marketing cares to disagree.

1) As do I. But it is kind of difficult to find fan gameplay when the game hasn't been released yet or in the first week of release. Word of mouth is great, it shouldn't be relied upon too much however.

2) Wonderful! Then hopefully since the website is
so early in their compaign, they can bring up those features so it
doesn't alienate a demograph.

3) Who says there's no female market? There are no numbers, or even proper studies done, suggesting there is or isn't. Its vague. The only thing people have to go on is A) What has worked in the past Stereotype Marketting Concepts C) Improvisation. I'm suggesting that Bioware tries a little improvisation, by offering materials onto the website showcasing Female Hawke in order to tap into the potential of that market. There's no harm done in doing so, they won't alienate their original strategy and it could open the doors to studying whether or not female gamers are more inclined to buy the game even through small website advertisements that showcase their gender. More studies.

And marketting DOES care about the opinion of the consumer. And if there is a pool of people most companies ignore that has money, tapping into that pool is a good idea. How you tap into it is the question I'm trying to answer.

Website materials is a good start.

And yes, stereotype in marketting & advertisement does exist.

Stereotype in Marketting

[Wishpig]

Lets not forget feminine tends to scare off male gamers more then masculine scares of female. Maria brought that up and its a great point. And its true!

Just look at MMO. Guy playing a girl is a HUGE taboo to many. Girl playing a guy is not.

So throwing more feminine characters in may hurt more then it would help.

Face it. The best selling games have stupid over the top manly men all over the place.

Modifié par Wishpig, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[HolyJellyfish]

crimzontearz wrote...

it was showcased because both males and females would have played that gameat the conventions. Bioware DOES want people to know you can play male and female hawkes but they only want a male iconic character to establish brand awareness. Least that is what we were told. And remember, most of the time arguments like this are met with "we know better than you" responses....which is even worse

Its that conversation I'm willing to fight. Dialogue creates stronger strategies, I know this for a fact while working at Nike and W+K. It gives an edge over competition if you open the design for discussion instead of attacking ideas.

And that conversation can be changed, if you talk about how what they knew certainly didn't help them get YOU as a fan.

I'm not sure what most other people's experiences were, how they became interested in Bioware's games, but I ignored them for a very long time. Even after I browsed their website and read articles in my gaming magazine, I just wasn't interested. There were no hints that you could alter the hero.

Brand awareness with male iconic character, I'm okay with. I'll accept. But by offering another level of awareness suggesting website materials where you could create an alternative to the default would only strengthen that campaign.

I'm not suggesting they go the direction of Fable, but... if Fable can do it, and they are far outselling Dragon Age, maybe reinvestigating certain strategies wouldn't harm the brand.

[HolyJellyfish]

Wishpig wrote...

Lets not forget feminine tends to scare off male gamers more then masculine scares of female. Maria brought that up and its a great point. And its true!

Just look at MMO. Guy playing a girl is a HUGE taboo to many. Girl playing a guy is not.

So throwing more feminine characters in may hurt more then it would help.

Face it. The best selling games have stupid over the top manly men all over the place.

Like Portal? Fable? Mario Party? Puzzle games? Pokemon? Soul Calibur? Perfect Dark? Metroid?

Four of those games are in the top ten best selling lists of all time

Shall I list more?

Feminine doesn't have to be feminine. It can be gender neutral.

[Aermas]

The problem of showing of a male & female main character is that it sometimes confuses people into thinking that one or the other is just a support character.

[Kakistos_]

Wishpig wrote...

Lets not forget feminine tends to scare off male gamers more then masculine scares of female. Maria brought that up and its a great point. And its true!

Just look at MMO. Guy playing a girl is a HUGE taboo to many. Girl playing a guy is not.

So throwing more feminine characters in may hurt more then it would help.

Face it. The best selling games have stupid over the top manly men all over the place.

Thats not the point. No one is suggesting that men should be forced to play as women. The argument being presented is that there is a sizable female demographic that should be marketed to along with the male.

Modifié par Kakistos_, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:34 .

[Aermas]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

Lets not forget feminine tends to scare off male gamers more then masculine scares of female. Maria brought that up and its a great point. And its true!

Just look at MMO. Guy playing a girl is a HUGE taboo to many. Girl playing a guy is not.

So throwing more feminine characters in may hurt more then it would help.

Face it. The best selling games have stupid over the top manly men all over the place.

Like Portal? Fable? Mario Party? Puzzle games? Pokemon? Soul Calibur? Perfect Dark? Metroid?

Four of those games are in the top ten best selling lists of all time

Shall I list more?

Feminine doesn't have to be feminine. It can be gender neutral.

Mario is a warhero/plumber that fought dragon turtles several times with his bare hands & rides a t-rex to save a princess & can lift tons of weight above his head. He also has a moustache 

Modifié par Aermas, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[Aermas]

Samus, don't forget her.

[HolyJellyfish]

Aermas wrote...

The problem of showing of a male & female main character is that it sometimes confuses people into thinking that one or the other is just a support character.

And what I'm arguing and what I've continued to argue is that go ahead, use a default iconic male hero for the game's advertisement.

But on the website, be sure to make it clear that he is not standard. That you can alter the gender. More insight may help bring in more people. Even if its just to the test the waters with a female audience, its a good start

[Galad22]

I am always much more interesting in games that have female lead, which is sadly rather rare. But you can usually trust that female lead isn't some kind of moronic macho like Hawke seems to be for example.



It is odd but for me female Shepard is much more "richer" and better character than male Shepard even though those two are essentially almost the same.

[Morroian]

Aermas wrote...

The problem of showing of a male & female main character is that it sometimes confuses people into thinking that one or the other is just a support character.

Good thing thats not what is being asked for in the necro'd version of this thread then.

[HolyJellyfish]

Kakistos_ wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

Lets not forget feminine tends to scare off male gamers more then masculine scares of female. Maria brought that up and its a great point. And its true!

Just look at MMO. Guy playing a girl is a HUGE taboo to many. Girl playing a guy is not.

So throwing more feminine characters in may hurt more then it would help.

Face it. The best selling games have stupid over the top manly men all over the place.

Thats not the point. No one is suggesting that men should be forced to play as women. The argument being presented is that there is a sizable female demographic that should be marketed to along with the male.

Thank you.

And even if it isn't sizeable, even if its only 10-20% of the market, its still a lot of money. And when you have that playerbase interested, word of mouth goes out, and even MORE women become interested.

Just website PR stuff. Its not that hard and its pretty cost effective.

I'm really not sure why I have to keep arguing this point. I'm not asking for a complete rebrand, just secondary materials web-only, as a test trial.

[Saibh]

I utterly understand why they chose a particular "face". I personally think that asking for female Hawke to be on the cover is too much, too fast (which is not what everyone is asking for). Easing our way into marketing works a little better. Already Lady Hawke has been marketed more than FemShep ever has been.

The information drip has been slow coming indeed. We only just learned ManHawke's voice actor (we hope). We know both of their default models, their default names, and we have clues as to who her VA is. I'd like to know who the voice actress is--that's definitely the next step. I'd love to see a trailer devoted solely to her story. That'd make my day...week. It'd make my gaming year. Not a CG one necessarily, but a trailer nonetheless.

Thus far, I've been rather pleased with how everything has gone. John Epler told us their dividing up animations for the male and female models 50/50.

So, you know, I'd like to thank BioWare for not forgetting us girls in the mix.

Modifié par Saibh, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[What is this]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

What is this wrote...

Uck here we go again. 
1. I ussually look my games up on youtube b4 i play them. Just because they're not official dosen't mean they don't count

2. They have only shown a glimpes of everything on the website, i think they have like 15 screenshots total and only 1 actual gameplay video.  It's early on they will release more screens of FEm hawke closer to release, and it only does take a few minutes to find out that info, But you're missing the point how many Ladies do you think actually visit the site at all? Or even know dragon age exsist, it's an incredibly small market and those who know about DA and are intrested in it probaly will look under game info to know what they're going to buy. Is anyone really going to simply look at the homepage and say"oh looks it's a male F*** this game i won't look anymore into it"  Marketing is targeting there core demographic.

3. How do you expect them to Niche into a female demograhpic when there is none to be had?Under 10% of gamers are female even less are probaly into tactical story heavy RPGS. They will release Official femhawke screenshots closer to release. the game is still 4months away and have revealed next to nothing at all. But it's ridicolous to expect them to release a screenshot of Femhawke in every in game position considering most female players i Imagine will change her to there liking. Each screenshot they release draws more criticism on the game as well, DA2 isn't a pretty game from what we've seen so far and each screenshotreinforces that. sometimes the less they know the better.
and to the sterotyped marketing bit:
Sterotyped marketing lol? that's not even a proper term. If a man writes a chick Flick does that mean it's for men?
You may not be asking for much in YOUR view, but marketing cares to disagree.

1) As do I. But it is kind of difficult to find fan gameplay when the game hasn't been released yet or in the first week of release. Word of mouth is great, it shouldn't be relied upon too much however.

2) Wonderful! Then hopefully since the website is
so early in their compaign, they can bring up those features so it
doesn't alienate a demograph.

3) Who says there's no female market? There are no numbers, or even proper studies done, suggesting there is or isn't. Its vague. The only thing people have to go on is A) What has worked in the past Stereotype Marketting Concepts C) Improvisation. I'm suggesting that Bioware tries a little improvisation, by offering materials onto the website showcasing Female Hawke in order to tap into the potential of that market. There's no harm done in doing so, they won't alienate their original strategy and it could open the doors to studying whether or not female gamers are more inclined to buy the game even through small website advertisements that showcase their gender. More studies.

And marketting DOES care about the opinion of the consumer. And if there is a pool of people most companies ignore that has money, tapping into that pool is a good idea. How you tap into it is the question I'm trying to answer.

Website materials is a good start.

And yes, stereotype in marketting & advertisement does exist.

Stereotype in Marketting

Sterotype in marketing and steroytype marketing are two completley diffrent things, one is not a term (which you orignally used) the other does not fit your arguements. Bioware is not assuming there Demographics intrest or portraying a sterotype in anyway. It's simply a fact that there are more Male gamers than female. They aren't assuming females Don't like videogames, they know there are less so they put out less to appeal to them.

1.Please keep in mind they only have one official video of Malehawke. The rest are youtube taken from gameshows. I've also been looking around the site, and can't  find a single screenshot of Hawke of ANY sex.
Just a video.

2. Females are hardly an important demographic ot there market,
i'd guess about 2% of there overall sales for origins were to females.

3.It's common knowledge that most gamers are male, Play an online game and see how many females you find, although that may not be accurate it is a good indication of the market. and as i said before, closer to release when there is more hype towards the game it will probaly add some screenshots of femhawke.

Marketing cares about Sales, not the opinion of the consumer unless it signfigantly affects sales. They are already Tapping into the female market by Giving a FULLY voiced non tomb raider style proggy.   and as i said b4 they'll likley advertise it more openly closer to release in order to generate hype.

Also once again i'll each screen they release draws more to criticize, I don't know Biowares marketing stategy. But i can pretty much promise you they're not witholding Fem hawke screenshots because they don't care about females.

[crimzontearz]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


it was showcased because both males and females would have played that gameat the conventions. Bioware DOES want people to know you can play male and female hawkes but they only want a male iconic character to establish brand awareness. Least that is what we were told. And remember, most of the time arguments like this are met with "we know better than you" responses....which is even worse

Its that conversation I'm willing to fight. Dialogue creates stronger strategies, I know this for a fact while working at Nike and W+K. It gives an edge over competition if you open the design for discussion instead of attacking ideas.


And that conversation can be changed, if you talk about how what they knew certainly didn't help them get YOU as a fan.


I'm not sure what most other people's experiences were, how they became interested in Bioware's games, but I ignored them for a very long time. Even after I browsed their website and read articles in my gaming magazine, I just wasn't interested. There were no hints that you could alter the hero.


Brand awareness with male iconic character, I'm okay with. I'll accept. But by offering another level of awareness suggesting website materials where you could create an alternative to the default would only strengthen that campaign.


I'm not suggesting they go the direction of Fable, but... if Fable can do it, and they are far outselling Dragon Age, maybe reinvestigating certain strategies wouldn't harm the brand.

let me give you an example.


when the conversation wheel was announced for DA2 a LOT of people complained about the fact they wanted to know EXACTLY what hawke was goint to say BEFORE CHOOSING AN OPTION, some were very constructive about it. One suggested "since there is a subtitle option why not allow people to see the subtitle of what hawke is about to say when you highlight each possible response and attach it as a toggle?". The answer to that, from a dev, was not "resources will not allow it" or "it would be too hard and convoluted to do" but "we will not give you the opportunity to give yourself a subpar experience". In other words "we know better than you". There is sadly no fighting that because it's pretty much hubris.

[Altima Darkspells]

Wishpig wrote...

Face it. The best selling games have stupid over the top manly men all over the place.

And since most designers pretty much regurgitate what sells well, most of the games coming out now have stupid, over the top, manly men.

Which leads to market saturation.

As others have said, some people will actually pick up a game with a female lead simply because it is something more unique and uncommon, instead of all the Gears/God of War manly Generic McActionGuy crap gamers have been forced to swallow for most of the decade.

Sometimes people want a change.  Many successful games have already latched onto the fact that you can sell just by being unique and, you know, having a good game.

Unfortunately, it seems that most games only have room for the same safe, predictable elements over and over.  Which is why my video game purchases have drastically declined, despite the overall increase in certain amounts of game quality.

[HolyJellyfish]

Saibh wrote...

I utterly understand why they chose a particular "face". I personally think that asking for female Hawke to be on the cover is too much, too fast (which is not what everyone is asking for). Easing our way into marketing works a little better. Already Lady Hawke has been marketed more than FemShep ever has been.

The information drip has been slow coming indeed. We only just learned ManHawke's voice actor (we hope). We know both of their default models, their default names, and we have clues as to who her VA is. I'd like to know who the voice actress is--that's definitely the next step. I'd love to see a trailer devoted solely to her story. That'd make my day...week. It'd make my gaming year. Not a CG one necessarily, but a trailer nonetheless.

Thus far, I've been rather pleased with how everything has gone. John Epler told us their dividing up animations for the male and female models 50/50.

So, you know, I'd like to thank BioWare for not forgetting us girls in the mix.

And I agree, I think its wonderful.

My concern is that they are ignoring the possibility of making a lot of money by not advertising (at least via web) hero customizability to people who don't know anything Bioware's awesome gender equality gaming creation.

I was more upset when I wanted to show my friend the Dragon Age 2 site, and realized 'Woah... Where's... the female hawke?' and started to read the content itself, noticing there was nothing there suggesting the character was anything but default male (Unless you read the FAQ, but even then that took digging).

Just by offering those screen shots and information, it sends a pretty clear message - Hey, yes, we have female customers and they enjoy this aspect of our game. If you are a female, you won't be alone. You will like this game.

And the earlier in the campaign, the better. Because once Game Release Season starts coming up, the less likely the team will be to release these materials.

That's why I wanted to put in my two cents.

Acknowledging you have a female fanbase is one thing, giving some materials (website, just website, only asking website) to a POTENTIAL female fanbase is entirely another.

[Ziggeh]

What is this wrote...

2. Females are hardly an important demographic ot there market,
i'd guess about 2% of there overall sales for origins were to females.

Hah, you'd be way, way off there.

[What is this]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

What is this wrote...

2. Females are hardly an important demographic ot there market,
i'd guess about 2% of there overall sales for origins were to females.

Hah, you'd be way, way off there.

Do we haveany official sources on this?