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[What is this]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

What is this wrote...

Uck here we go,

In terms of Dragon age marketing a hardcore gamer is someone willing to pick this game up, Not all people who own systems are intrested in slaying some darkspawn, some people like Guitar hero, some prefer halo, Some prefer Tetris.

I never said Girls can't be Hardcore, There are plenty on these forums who i would consider very die hard fans of dragon age, But that does not apply to the entire market. I'm saying "gamers" of any sex who are only intrested  in specific genres such as Rock band or puzzle games may not be intrested in DA, it's not a game that i think anyone could pick up and play. It's very story heavy and you have to invest srs time into it to get the most out of it.

Hey. So, what would you recommend Bioware do to resolve the issue of gender exclusive marketting that is currently being treated towards Dragon Age 2?

Or would you rather not change the strategies at all?

Because if you think that the advertisement is just fine and dandy, then being on a 'Please Offer More Lady Content Please' support thread probably isn't your grilled cheese sandwich. Just saying.

I'm not advocating what Marketing is doing is fair,
I'm saying it's reasonable. I'm not on the marketing team so i can't know what their overall plan is. But i think it's premature to say that they are ignoring the female market when were still 4 months away.

[Ziggeh]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Hey. So, what would you recommend Bioware do to resolve the issue of gender exclusive marketting that is currently being treated towards Dragon Age 2?

Or would you rather not change the strategies at all?

I think the pressing question is: Is it Bioware's responsiblity to change it?

I'd definitely like to see it change, but as there is very little industry experience in doing so, the results are an unknown, and in a medium that, sadly, rarely takes the risks over the certainties, I think it's unlikely, and not a reasonable expectation on our part.

[HolyJellyfish]

What is this wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

What is this wrote...

Uck here we go,

In terms of Dragon age marketing a hardcore gamer is someone willing to pick this game up, Not all people who own systems are intrested in slaying some darkspawn, some people like Guitar hero, some prefer halo, Some prefer Tetris.

I never said Girls can't be Hardcore, There are plenty on these forums who i would consider very die hard fans of dragon age, But that does not apply to the entire market. I'm saying "gamers" of any sex who are only intrested  in specific genres such as Rock band or puzzle games may not be intrested in DA, it's not a game that i think anyone could pick up and play. It's very story heavy and you have to invest srs time into it to get the most out of it.

Hey. So, what would you recommend Bioware do to resolve the issue of gender exclusive marketting that is currently being treated towards Dragon Age 2?

Or would you rather not change the strategies at all?

Because if you think that the advertisement is just fine and dandy, then being on a 'Please Offer More Lady Content Please' support thread probably isn't your grilled cheese sandwich. Just saying.

I'm not advocating what Marketing is doing is fair,
I'm saying it's reasonable. I'm not on the marketing team so i can't know what their overall plan is. But i think it's premature to say that they are ignoring the female market when were still 4 months away.

It isn't premature when all of the videos, screenshots, media, and content is serviced to male Hawke (especially since Female Hawke is being created at the same pace he is). If equal representation is too much to ask, then a little bit of content on the site acknowledging there is a female fanbase and that Bioware is interested in gaining female customers isn't much at all.

The earlier these concerns are cited, the better. Said any later, and the content gurus may feel uncomfortable adding anything on the premise that it would 'confuse' people.

Feel free to offer any positive ideas you may have on this topic.

[What is this]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I never called you sexist - this is only my third post in this thread.

I find it arrogant and presumptious to dismiss the 40% number out of hand as not being valid because it may count games like Rockband and Farmville and therefore cannot speak to the market lurking.

Even if they may not be interested in a tactical rpg right now, they will never get a chance to if no one ever piques their interest through a little marketing.

Were you born knowing all the games you would ever like? Or did you see something that interested you and tried it out? What's wrong with asking for a little more reaching out?

No one's asking BioWare, EA, or anyone to scrap all their plans, and make girl-centric games, they'd just like some acknowledgement that this game allows you to play as a female, too.

You heavily implied it,  By saying i think women are only intrested in DS cooking games was it? 

I did not dismiss the study, I simply don't think it could be applied to DA's market because it is too broad.
How is Marketing spos to tackle the untapped market with assurance they get  the money they spent on advertising back with intrest? It's risky and gaming studios need to make profit to stay afloat we've had atleast 5 this year that have gone down due to 1 bad  selling game.

And as i said b4 i think Bioware will Release more Femhawke closer to release. But don't expect anything akin to Man Hawkes exposure unless you wanna see fem hawke in a bikkini.

[What is this]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Hey. So, what would you recommend Bioware do to resolve the issue of gender exclusive marketting that is currently being treated towards Dragon Age 2?

Or would you rather not change the strategies at all?

I think the pressing question is: Is it Bioware's responsiblity to change it?

I'd definitely like to see it change, but as there is very little industry experience in doing so, the results are an unknown, and in a medium that, sadly, rarely takes the risks over the certainties, I think it's unlikely, and not a reasonable expectation on our part.

THis this this this this this
Was all i was trying to say.

[HolyJellyfish]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Hey. So, what would you recommend Bioware do to resolve the issue of gender exclusive marketting that is currently being treated towards Dragon Age 2?

Or would you rather not change the strategies at all?

I think the pressing question is: Is it Bioware's responsiblity to change it?

I'd definitely like to see it change, but as there is very little industry experience in doing so, the results are an unknown, and in a medium that, sadly, rarely takes the risks over the certainties, I think it's unlikely, and not a reasonable expectation on our part.

It doesn't need a full alteration, just a few tweaks.

There's a reason why so many ladies played DA:O. Its because the campaign itself wasn't marketed to a specific gender. In fact, it was careful to maintain this idea of being open and customizing your hero.

Since Mass Effect 2's success, I keep getting the impression the same marketing is responsible for DA2 right now. It feels very similar. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but completely disengaging with the female fanbase and potential lady customers is insulting.

And yes, it is their responsibility. They are selling two stories and claiming there's only one story to the casual/ignorant consumer, if you get my saying. Its equal representation.

Just some web content will make me happy. I'm not asking for rebranding. Just something on their official website that visually acknowledges female hawke.

[What is this]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Hey. So, what would you recommend Bioware do to resolve the issue of gender exclusive marketting that is currently being treated towards Dragon Age 2?

Or would you rather not change the strategies at all?

I think the pressing question is: Is it Bioware's responsiblity to change it?

I'd definitely like to see it change, but as there is very little industry experience in doing so, the results are an unknown, and in a medium that, sadly, rarely takes the risks over the certainties, I think it's unlikely, and not a reasonable expectation on our part.

It doesn't need a full alteration, just a few tweaks.

There's a reason why so many ladies played DA:O. Its because the campaign itself wasn't marketed to a specific gender. In fact, it was careful to maintain this idea of being open and customizing your hero.

Since Mass Effect 2's success, I keep getting the impression the same marketing is responsible for DA2 right now. It feels very similar. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but completely disengaging with the female fanbase and potential lady customers is insulting.

And yes, it is their responsibility. They are selling two stories and claiming there's only one story to the casual/ignorant consumer, if you get my saying. Its equal representation.

Just some web content will make me happy. I'm not asking for rebranding. Just something on their official website that visually acknowledges female hawke.

It's still one story. Changing Hawkes sex dosen't alter the game that much other than romance options.

[SarEnyaDor]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

"Hardcore" is about as specific as "pretty."

I think that guy who died playing WoW was pretty hardcore, I really hope that most gamers aren't hardcore like that.

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I would really love What is this, and others, to explain exactly what makes a gamer "hardcore" in their mind... is it the money spent on games, thoe hours played daily, weekly, monthly on a single game, or all games in general? If the player can manage to play an entire game without destroying a controller or something else out of frustration do they lose their hardocre status?

Don't you realize how you sound when you decide that these "girl gamers" can't be hardcore gamers and therefore do not count?

Personally, if there is a girl out there dropping 100 bucks a month on games and spending 8 hours a day on Rockband, she's more hardcore than her brother who plays Halo online once a week with his friends and clocks an hour a night trying to get Morrigan's approval up enough, but not too much.

I also think people who spend hours playing a game, and then talking about a game on a game forum makes them hardcore enough to be counted.

Or how about this -> stop trying to label people and then dismiss them if they don't fit that label?

These were my two previous posts, I see nothing about DS cooking games.

SarEnyaDor wrote...

I never called you sexist - this is only my third post in this thread.

I find it arrogant and presumptious to dismiss the 40% number out of hand as not being valid because it may count games like Rockband and Farmville and therefore cannot speak to the market lurking.

Even if they may not be interested in a tactical rpg right now, they will never get a chance to if no one ever piques their interest through a little marketing.

Were you born knowing all the games you would ever like? Or did you see something that interested you and tried it out? What's wrong with asking for a little more reaching out?

No one's asking BioWare, EA, or anyone to scrap all their plans, and make girl-centric games, they'd just like some acknowledgement that this game allows you to play as a female, too.

In all fairness, going from past experience with ME1, DA:O and ME2 there was never any kind of marketing that hinted at being able to play a female, unless you were already a member of the community. All the advertisements were silver-eyed Cousland and Sheperloo. Though ME2's Collector's Edition strategy guide was written by and had a mjority of femShep screenshots, unless their marketing drastically differs from the recent past these forum posts are going to be about the only way people are going to know you can play as a female unless you have the game.

edit -> I take that back, after the silver-eyed part, there were flashes of other Wardens, like an old man mage and a dwarf and the like.

Modifié par SarEnyaDor, 20 décembre 2010 - 06:06 .

[HolyJellyfish]

What is this wrote...
It's still one story. Changing Hawkes sex dosen't alter the game that much other than romance options.

I'm not interested in disagreeing with your opinion.

If you have something constructive to say that would help the issue of lady content, offer your advice.

[What is this]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

What is this wrote...
It's still one story. Changing Hawkes sex dosen't alter the game that much other than romance options.

I'm not interested in disagreeing with your opinion.

If you have something constructive to say that would help the issue of lady content, offer your advice.

Then why'd you reply to it?

[HolyJellyfish]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

In all fairness, going from past experience with ME1, DA:O and ME2 there was never any kind of marketing that hinted at being able to play a female, unless you were already a member of the community. All the advertisements were silver-eyed Cousland and Sheperloo. Though ME2's Collector's Edition strategy guide was written by and had a mjority of femShep screenshots, unless their marketing drastically differs from the recent past these forum posts are going to be about the only way people are going to know you can play as a female unless you have the game.

edit -> I take that back, after the silver-eyed part, there were flashes of other Wardens, like an old man mage and a dwarf and the like.

That's why I ignored Bioware's games for the most part. I heard good reviews, browsed through Mass Effect 2's website, and just wasn't interested in the hero (Nothing on the site suggests you can customize the guy). And then I stumbled across a Fem!Shep fan trailer on youtube while looking for a specific song.

That, to me, is sad. Its proof that they are neglecting a market. I know I'm not the only lady consumer out there that this happened to, or the last.

[upsettingshorts]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

If you have something constructive to say that would help the issue of lady content, offer your advice.

Here's mine:

*Throw up an extra screenshot or two on the website that shows character creation.

*Make custom box art - including but not limited to FemHawke - available for purchase on the website in limited numbers, similar to the approach for the lithographs. 

[HolyJellyfish]

What is this wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

What is this wrote...
It's still one story. Changing Hawkes sex dosen't alter the game that much other than romance options.

I'm not interested in disagreeing with your opinion.

If you have something constructive to say that would help the issue of lady content, offer your advice.

Then why'd you reply to it?

And why are you interested in arguing with every single person? I told you over and over again, I'm not interested in confrontation, and you still are trying to start an argument / disagreement.

I have a right to call you on it.

[What is this]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

What is this wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

What is this wrote...
It's still one story. Changing Hawkes sex dosen't alter the game that much other than romance options.

I'm not interested in disagreeing with your opinion.

If you have something constructive to say that would help the issue of lady content, offer your advice.

Then why'd you reply to it?

And why are you interested in arguing with every single person? I told you over and over again, I'm not interested in confrontation, and you still are trying to start an argument / disagreement.

I have a right to call you on it.

But to call me on it twice?
You seem very intrested in arguing to me.

[HolyJellyfish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

If you have something constructive to say that would help the issue of lady content, offer your advice.

Here's mine:

*Throw up an extra screenshot or two on the website that shows character creation.

*Make custom box art - including but not limited to FemHawke - available for purchase on the website in limited numbers, similar to the approach for the lithographs. 

That would be nice. I also like the idea of a special edition double sided poster. It might be a bit fetched, but I think it'd be pretty cool.

[SarEnyaDor]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

If you have something constructive to say that would help the issue of lady content, offer your advice.

Here's mine:

*Throw up an extra screenshot or two on the website that shows character creation.

*Make custom box art - including but not limited to FemHawke - available for purchase on the website in limited numbers, similar to the approach for the lithographs. 

  I think these are EXCELLENT ideas.

Though I'd be happy with just the first one. The second one might cause all sorts of headaches, have you tried buying a lithograph? 500 orders coming in at once for 100 items -> don't even try to get in with PayPal.

[upsettingshorts]

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Though I'd be happy with just the first one. The second one might cause all sorts of headaches, have you tried buying a lithograph? 500 orders coming in at once for 100 items -> don't even try to get in with PayPal.

Then they might up their production to meet demand.  A limited run, at the very least to start with, would potentially minimize costs on their end.

[HolyJellyfish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SarEnyaDor wrote...

Though I'd be happy with just the first one. The second one might cause all sorts of headaches, have you tried buying a lithograph? 500 orders coming in at once for 100 items -> don't even try to get in with PayPal.

Then they might up their production to meet demand.  A limited run, at the very least to start with, would potentially minimize costs on their end.

That would be pretty damn neat. Especially since I imagine the demand would be pretty high, and not exclusively from lady gamers.  It could turn out a pretty profit, since I imagine such packaging would be pretty collectable.

Some developement footage, showing the Female Hawke doing some dialogue choices and the like instead of Male Hawke would be nice. Even if its just one video. The only people who really watch the footage are mostly fans who already plan on buying the game.

[Ziggeh]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Since Mass Effect 2's success, I keep getting the impression the same marketing is responsible for DA2 right now. It feels very similar. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but completely disengaging with the female fanbase and potential lady customers is insulting.

It's something of a problem that's unique to the genre. Getting people to identify with a character who isn't necessarily the protagonist. We discussed this at length in another thread, so I'd rather not repeat something reasonably fresh, but the crux of it is that creating a face, an iconic identifier is a well used, well documented method of empathically engaging the audience, and that creating "fuzziness" by questioning that face with other elements risks reducing that empathy.

HolyJellyfish wrote...
And yes, it is their responsibility. They are selling two stories and claiming there's only one story to the casual/ignorant consumer, if you get my saying. Its equal representation.

I mean there responsibilty to create a new language with which to properly engage with the audience, rather than using a language that, while not entirely appropriate is one with which we're all intimately familiar: the iconic identifier. It might be in their interest in the long term, thinking about it, but theres still that element of risk involved. (One which might be taken elsewhere, saving them the trouble)

[Trapper_920]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Consider this my open letter.

Bioware,

If there is a possibility to make Hawke female, many of your female fans would greatly appreciate it if you did not solely promote the male version.  I am aware that there aren't as many female players as male players overall.  However, Bioware seems to have a large number of female fans, and we tend to feel left out when only male Shepard, and now only male Hawke, is referred to in advertising and interviews.  While I, and I'm sure the other females who play the games, don't demand a "he or she" every time you reference the character, is a little cover art of the default female too much to ask for?  Please?

Many of your Dragon Age fans are unhappy about the decision to disallow choice of race and origin--the very thing that made Dragon Age:  Origins so unique.  By including, at least in some small way, the female version of Hawke during promotion, you might at least make a few of us feel a little better about the series, albeit for an entirely different reason.

As a gaming company, you've done a lot of good for female characters and female gamers.  There have been some instances where I wanted to roll my eyes at what you did with this or that character, but for the most part, you've made it welcoming to female players--at least, when we actually start playing the game.  The problem is that we kind of feel excluded beforehand.  The female storyline is rarely if ever the canon one.  The default female characters don't get added to the box art.  In every interview, the main template character is male.  While I'd very much like to see a main character in some future Bioware game be female and advertised as such (with the secondary gender being male for once)--and not the oversexualized female typical in video games with the aim of attracting hormone-raging male players--I'm not asking for that, or even for the interviews to change from the "boys' only club" stance for protagonists that you seem to have taken.  Just please give a little official acknowledgment to the female storylines.  You may even find that you attract more female gamers that way, and I really doubt that having the male variant of your protagonist share the cover with the female will do any harm to sales.  Most guys, I have found, enjoy looking at pretty girls, even if said pretty girls aren't overly endowed or standing around in skin-tight suits or  their underwear.  We women do not like to feel like the option to be female in a game was tacked on as a mere afterthought.

 Thank you.

I tend to agree with you and I would like to see more like a cover and previews that show both really. You make a game that can be either or but you don't advertise it and it doesn't make sense. I don't want to see some big boobed bunny and if you want something to reference you can look at the art from the redesigned Laura Croft in the recent Game Informer issue.

[Mahumia]

An option to show the existence of Lady Hawke would be to show the character screen of default LHawke when explaining something about the game on the website, like the screenshot here

With all the introduction up front of 'the main characters name is Hawke' I think that most people are able to put two and two together when they see a male person named 'Garreth Hawke' and a bit later a person named 'Marian Hawke'. Some extra explanation in a bit about customising would be totally perfect ('You can choose your own gender and look for your Hawke').

Nothing fancy, just some small hints The average gamer isn't dull. Besides: the game is aimed towards an adult audience, so one can expect some intelligence from those who are seeking more information.

In order to peek the attention of those who've never heard of DA yet, handing out some screenshots with both Hawkes might help.

I speak for myself when I add that I prefer to play a female character for a roleplay game when given the option, whether it be p&p or on the computer. Would it be a brainless shooter or something.... then it wouldn't matter to me. Nonetheless I make up from the previous posting that there are more women out there with a similar mindset

[HolyJellyfish]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Since Mass Effect 2's success, I keep getting the impression the same marketing is responsible for DA2 right now. It feels very similar. I'm not saying its a bad thing, but completely disengaging with the female fanbase and potential lady customers is insulting.

It's something of a problem that's unique to the genre. Getting people to identify with a character who isn't necessarily the protagonist. We discussed this at length in another thread, so I'd rather not repeat something reasonably fresh, but the crux of it is that creating a face, an iconic identifier is a well used, well documented method of empathically engaging the audience, and that creating "fuzziness" by questioning that face with other elements risks reducing that empathy.

I know, but I'm still convinced there are other, open minded avenues that recognize both genders, give equal representation, and knock down that disconnection with female gamers. If Lionhead Studio's Fable can do it, why can't Bioware's Dragon Age series? Maybe not now, but next game.

I just want some website acknowledgement. You know. Just a nod?

HolyJellyfish wrote...
And yes, it is their responsibility. They are selling two stories and claiming there's only one story to the casual/ignorant consumer, if you get my saying. Its equal representation.

I mean there responsibilty to create a new language with which to properly engage with the audience, rather than using a language that, while not entirely appropriate is one with which we're all intimately familiar: the iconic identifier. It might be in their interest in the long term, thinking about it, but theres still that element of risk involved. (One which might be taken elsewhere, saving them the trouble)

And I agree, I'm okay with iconic. It doesn't hurt to have the alternative to that icon on the website with explanation, or to make it very clear that there is an alternative available during interviews, etc.

Again, I'm just asking for a little web presence. Some text on the back of the box. It isn't much, but its going somewhere.

[HolyJellyfish]

Mahumia wrote...

An option to show the existence of Lady Hawke would be to show the character screen of default LHawke when explaining something about the game on the website, like the screenshot here

With all the introduction up front of 'the main characters name is Hawke' I think that most people are able to put two and two together when they see a male person named 'Garreth Hawke' and a bit later a person named 'Marian Hawke'. Some extra explanation in a bit about customising would be totally perfect ('You can choose your own gender and look for your Hawke').

Nothing fancy, just some small hints The average gamer isn't dull. Besides: the game is aimed towards an adult audience, so one can expect some intelligence from those who are seeking more information.

In order to peek the attention of those who've never heard of DA yet, handing out some screenshots with both Hawkes might help.

I speak for myself when I add that I prefer to play a female character for a roleplay game when given the option, whether it be p&p or on the computer. Would it be a brainless shooter or something.... then it wouldn't matter to me. Nonetheless I make up from the previous posting that there are more women out there with a similar mindset

Agreed. Just some small hints and nods. Enough to pick up more women and remind your female fanbase who is just as enthusiastic as your male one that while we may not be your key demograph, you still appreciate us.

[crimzontearz]

I wanted to say something about a particular concept I found rather.....interesting about this.



"I did not know you could make a female shepard"



no this is not an attack toward anyone but how could anyone not kbow? it was said a number of times in previews, interviews and reviews both online and on paper magazines. Hell by the time ME1 came out I knew the name of each squaddie and who was romanceable as well as some of the inner workings of the system. By the time Dead space came out I knew mostly everything there was to know about the atmosphere, the new UI (or lack of it) and several other details that surfaced over the months.



So perhaps this is the difference between an hardcore gamer and a casual. The hardcore gamer will do the research, will listen to podcasts, watch previews online and vidocs and such, they will read articles and previews whereas the casual gamer will only skim the surface and perhaps look at the official site .

Same as the difference between someone who likes cars and an actual aficionado who subscribes to 4 wheels monthly and reads lots of publications



just throwing it there

[HolyJellyfish]

crimzontearz wrote...

So perhaps this is the difference between an hardcore gamer and a casual. The hardcore gamer will do the research, will listen to podcasts, watch previews online and vidocs and such, they will read articles and previews whereas the casual gamer will only skim the surface and perhaps look at the official site .
Same as the difference between someone who likes cars and an actual aficionado who subscribes to 4 wheels monthly and reads lots of publications

just throwing it there

Yes but Bioware isn't trying to target hardcore gamers with DA2. They are aiming for Casual Gamers, hence why their campaign has an iconic male figure, combat is optional hack & slash, and the pace is much faster.

(EDIT)

Which is to say, I'm a hardcore gamer when it comes to the games I really enjoy, I don't typically research something I'm not familiar with or doesn't look interesting to me initially. Hence why I didn't know there was a Fem!Shep. I saw the posters and ads at Gamestop, sure. I read quite a few reviews in my magazine. I even browsed the website. But it didn't click with me.

Call me sexist, but I typically like to play my RPGs with a female protagonist or at least female optional.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 20 décembre 2010 - 08:13 .