516 réponses à ce sujet

[Stanley Woo]

Oghren thread UN-redirected here. Apologies for the interruption.

[HolyJellyfish]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

You already have the DA logo. Its a blood splattered dragon.

..........................

I'm not saying he's literally the logo, I'm saying he works in the same way re the brand identity.

Sorry, I knew that. I'm a little tired right now and grated.

I understand what you are saying. But I still don't think that some web content for the ladies will hurt the brand identity at all. And I know you are suggesting it might (but there is no real way of knowing), I just don't really see how it could. It would generate awareness, and since people go on the website primarily to investigate the gaming features more, then I think one of the main features (character customizability) should definitely be mentioned on the front page at the very least, or hinted at by the images.

[Wishpig]

What is this wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

You already have the DA logo. Its a blood splattered dragon.

..........................

I'm not saying he's literally the logo, I'm saying he works in the same way re the brand identity.

Yeah like Gears of War. It has a Logo, but it also has a face (marcus).

And halo has master chief.

well Master Chief has progressed beyond being just a face. He can act like a logo. You can slap him on a poster, not put halo anywhere on it, and BAMN... people will know what it is instantly. I don't think you could even do that with Marcus or Shepard.

I hate to say it, but Femhawke would make a bad *face*. One of the reasons I like her is she looks tough as nails, not like some sex object (Lara Croft, Boyentta, ect).

Sadly that won't appeal to many guy gamers at all. Manly men or big ***s seem to be the most appealing.

Modifié par Wishpig, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:04 .

[Sharn01]

I fail to see how a few screenshots on the official website would confuse people if done properly. 

Instead of random screens have a brief paragraph about character creation in the games description with a link to the two iconic Hawke's, possibly a pic of the character creation page that shows the option to customize as well.

If anyone is still confused after such precautions are taken, they probably are not intelligent enough to remember what they saw when it comes time to buy the game anyway.

[HolyJellyfish]

Wishpig wrote...

well Master Chief has progressed beyond being just a face. He can act like a logo. You can slap him on a poster, not put halo anywhere on it, and BAMN... people will know what it is instantly. I don't think you could even do that with Marcus or Shepard.

I hate to say it, but Femhawke would make a bad *face*. One of the reasons I like her is she looks tough as nails, not like some sex object (Lara Croft, Boyentta, ect).

Sadly that won't appeal to many guy gamers at all. Manly men or big ***s seem to be the most appealing.

I'm not interested in hearing about how things CAN'T be done, but rather what CAN be done.

So if you have any ideas that might help, feel free to offer. Otherwise, this thread is not for you.

[Ziggeh]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I understand what you are saying. But I still don't think that some web content for the ladies will hurt the brand identity at all. And I know you are suggesting it might (but there is no real way of knowing), I just don't really see how it could. It would generate awareness, and since people go on the website primarily to investigate the gaming features more, then I think one of the main features (character customizability) should definitely be mentioned on the front page at the very least, or hinted at by the images.

Put really basically: A single, ubiquitous logo stands stronger in the mind than "this is the logo, well, mostly, sometimes it's this and you can sort of makes your own if you like."

That almost certainly sounds overly simplistic, because it is, it's not supposed to be something that engages people on a concious, thoughful level, but a primal, empathic one: "See this logo, be like this logo, the logo is cool, the logo gets chicks". I find that fairly offensive if I'm honest, just like all those aftershave adds with some model swanning about in a tux. Buying this brand of aftershave is in no way related to driving a high performance sports car on a beach.

[Wishpig]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

well Master Chief has progressed beyond being just a face. He can act like a logo. You can slap him on a poster, not put halo anywhere on it, and BAMN... people will know what it is instantly. I don't think you could even do that with Marcus or Shepard.

I hate to say it, but Femhawke would make a bad *face*. One of the reasons I like her is she looks tough as nails, not like some sex object (Lara Croft, Boyentta, ect).

Sadly that won't appeal to many guy gamers at all. Manly men or big ***s seem to be the most appealing.

I'm not interested in hearing about how things CAN'T be done, but rather what CAN be done.

So if you have any ideas that might help, feel free to offer. Otherwise, this thread is not for you.

You decide who posts what on this thread, huh? And I can only post stuff that you would agree with hmmmm?

Ok! I think I got an idea that might just work...

I think they should all together remove the option to make a femhawke! Then gamers can have a rally agianst such a unfair and sexest move!

The press would be all over it, bioware will be forced to re-add femhawke, and BOOM! Massive exposure! No one in the world will know they can't be a female in this game!

[Ziggeh]

Sharn01 wrote...

I fail to see how a few screenshots on the official website would confuse people if done properly. 

Not confused. Branding doesn't operate at a level that's able to be confused. It operates at a level where broad, unambiguous strokes are all that's getting through, making ambiguity a problem.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 20 décembre 2010 - 10:23 .

[HolyJellyfish]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I understand what you are saying. But I still don't think that some web content for the ladies will hurt the brand identity at all. And I know you are suggesting it might (but there is no real way of knowing), I just don't really see how it could. It would generate awareness, and since people go on the website primarily to investigate the gaming features more, then I think one of the main features (character customizability) should definitely be mentioned on the front page at the very least, or hinted at by the images.

Put really basically: A single, ubiquitous logo stands stronger in the mind than "this is the logo, well, mostly, sometimes it's this and you can sort of makes your own if you like."

That almost certainly sounds overly simplistic, because it is, it's not supposed to be something that engages people on a concious, thoughful level, but a primal, empathic one: "See this logo, be like this logo, the logo is cool, the logo gets chicks". I find that fairly offensive if I'm honest, just like all those aftershave adds with some model swanning about in a tux. Buying this brand of aftershave is in no way related to driving a high performance sports car on a beach.

I'm asking for two screen grabs, and typed information that says 'Yes you can change your gender, customize it, etc.'

Of all the PR materials, ALL of them, just two screen grabs and typed info. That's not even equal representation, that's 1%, even though the game is made to be equally represented.

I understand branding. I'm a Graphic Designer, I do it for a living.

Adding website features won't hurt that brand, even small ones, slight ones. And I agree with the above poster, if you can't distinguish a screenshot that states quite clearly 'FEMALE ALTERNATIVE HAWKE' right under a huge paragraph that says 'You can change your appearance & gender', then you probably aren't that smart.

[HolyJellyfish]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

I fail to see how a few screenshots on the official website would confuse people if done properly. 

Not confused. Branding doesn't operate at a level that's able to be confused. It operates at a level where broad, unambiguous strokes are all that's getting through, making ambiguity a problem.

Yes, but the brand alrealdy has some levels of ambiguouty. The copy in the website doesn't say whether or not Hawke is a male, or list his full name. Hawke is, by default, an ambiguous character. Sure, he has a face, but there's no real personality there that is featured.

It even mentions you CAN play a Female hawke in the FAQ, but that's after digging which is kind of ridiculous. Just feature that you can customize appearance and gender apart from your default on the features side bar. Include the female alternative so there is an awareness. And it would do what a strong brand does

- Be able to speak for a majority of demographs (male and female), instead of limiting itself to just one (male).

Opening those doors could invite further study on the female market, which is pretty ignored by the gaming industry. HOWEVER, the gaming industry are making some serious efforts to try to study it since so little information exists. Bioware could, potentially, open the doors and increase their awareness / revenue whereas other companies are lagging behind.

But I digress, that's cherry soda thinking.

Just a few screengrabs and site info.

[HolyJellyfish]

@ziggehunderslash



So I guess, when it comes down to it, I'm asking the following :



Instead of telling me that it CAN'T be done, in your experience and knowledge of branding, what CAN Bioware do to treat equal representation appropriately? Twitter? Blogs? Interviews? Any sort of constructive ideas on your part would be nice. I'm really tired of people telling me things can't be done for this or that reason, when there's no real proof to back it up. You can't tell me something can't be done when no one has even made an effort in the gaming field.

[Maria Caliban]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

You already have the DA logo. Its a blood splattered dragon.

..........................

I'm not saying he's literally the logo, I'm saying he works in the same way re the brand identity.

Some thoughts here.

1. 'Give female gamers some love' is more a general request. Lady Hawke has already had more exposure than Fem!Shep and I haven't seen any confusion. HolyJellyFish might have some specific ideas that she'd like to see implemented, and not all of them might be viable, but I think this particular discussion is focusing more on individual trees and not the larger forest.

2. Shepard works as a logo for the Mass Effect series because the series is about Shepard. Hakwe doesn't work as a logo because the DA series isn't about Hawke. A logo isn't something that you use for a year and then discard. If BioWare wants Hawke to be akin to Shepard, Geralt, or Master Chief, then he needs to star in more than a single game. Otherwise, BioWare needs to find a 'brand image' that they can carry over from game to game.

3. Much of marketing is aimed at people who are new to the series. I think it's fine to expose them to iconic male, blood mage Hawke. He does look very cool. There is, however, stuff aimed at people who are already interested and want to learn more or those who are DA fans. That's where you want to put the Lady Hawke goodness.

[Wishpig]

Maria Caliban wrote...

2. Shepard works as a logo for the Mass Effect series because the series is about Shepard. Hakwe doesn't work as a logo because the DA series isn't about Hawke. A logo isn't something that you use for a year and then discard. If BioWare wants Hawke to be akin to Shepard, Geralt, or Master Chief, then he needs to star in more than a single game. Otherwise, BioWare needs to find a 'brand image' that they can carry over from game to game.

 

Although I do think they might be trying to make to make Hawke the "Shepard" of the series. Word on the street *dunno if it's true* is that DA3 will be more of a direct sequel.

Modifié par Wishpig, 20 décembre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Snoteye]

Wishpig wrote...

Word on the street *dunno if it's true* is that DA3 will be more of a direct sequel.

Something about chickens, eggs, and mathematics.

[Ziggeh]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

@ziggehunderslash

So I guess, when it comes down to it, I'm asking the following :

Instead of telling me that it CAN'T be done, in your experience and knowledge of branding, what CAN Bioware do to treat equal representation appropriately? Twitter? Blogs? Interviews? Any sort of constructive ideas on your part would be nice.

I'll have a proper think. I tend to be good at the analysing and not so much the creation (a frustrating skillset), but on a general level I think they should be looking to create the language with which one sells the idea of a customisable protagonist, because even if they dealt deftly with gender issues, "Trailer Hawke" doesn't accurately represent the product.

HolyJellyfish wrote...
You can't tell me something can't be done when no one has even made an effort in the gaming field.

That's probably something I should have mentioned more myself. I don't really believe the ambiguity would be bad, it would be bad for the "branding", but overall I suspect it would be helpful to place the customisation angle in areas where people might be searching for info and keeping the beardy action guy for the trailers and posters. What I see as the major issue is the comparative lack of precedent, and the appeal of the well trodden path.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 20 décembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[Xewaka]

Snoteye wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

Word on the street *dunno if it's true* is that DA3 will be more of a direct sequel.

Something about chickens, eggs, and mathematics.

What they said on the interviews is that Varric would also figure in a theoretical DA three, and that Cassandra would have a much prominent role in such a game.

[Snoteye]

Xewaka wrote...

What they said on the interviews is that Varric would also figure in a theoretical DA three, and that Cassandra would have a much prominent role in such a game.

I theorise that Cassandra is nothing more than a hook to a potential third instalment, but DA2 still hasn't even been released yet. And even with a third game, Hawke can never be DA's "Shepard" because he didn't exist in DA:O.

[Sharn01]

Wishpig wrote...

Word on the street *dunno if it's true* is that DA3 will be more of a direct sequel.

What reliable source did you come to this conclusion from, or is this just wishful speculation?

I would hope that you are wrong if you do have some actual source, Bioware has proven time and again that they do a poor job with direct sequels in regards to continueing a story.

Modifié par Sharn01, 20 décembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[Wishpig]

Sharn01 wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

Word on the street *dunno if it's true* is that DA3 will be more of a direct sequel.

What reliable source did you come to this conclusion from, or is this just wishful speculation?

I would hope that you are wrong if you do have some actual source, Bioware has proven time and again that they do a poor job with direct sequels in regards to continueing a story.

Not wishfull thinking. I don't care at all. I kinda like the whole new cast idea. Better then the same character getting an entirly new crew each time around.

Over on the Varric thread someone was saying how in a preview it said Cass would play a much larger role in DA3. Take it as you will, I certainly don't see it as anythingmore then a slight maybe.

[Hathur]

Sharn01 wrote...

Wishpig wrote...

Word on the street *dunno if it's true* is that DA3 will be more of a direct sequel.

What reliable source did you come to this conclusion from, or is this just wishful speculation?

I would hope that you are wrong if you do have some actual source, Bioware has proven time and again that they do a poor job with direct sequels in regards to continueing a story.

I'm assuming by "street" he means the homeless fella camping outside his local gamestop.

Don't you know? Homeless people are ninjas... they hide in trash and listen to gamestop employees all day long, since gamestop employees talk to developers on a daily basis.

[Kakistos_]

Achieving, more or less, equal representation can be as simple as typing "You can customize your gender" somewhere in the site. Adding few screenshots is not asking too much especially if you consider the female fanbase, regardless of how small you have been mislead to believe it is, it is a fanbase regardless.

[Andy Luvv]

Kakistos_ wrote...

Achieving, more or less, equal representation can be as simple as typing "You can customize your gender" somewhere in the site. Adding few screenshots is not asking too much especially if you consider the female fanbase, regardless of how small you have been mislead to believe it is, it is a fanbase regardless.

I'd say even use her face. Someone mentioned that the femhawke is "tough as nails".
Hello? I don't wanna play with a truck driver looking lady.
One of the reasons I got the pc version of DAO was that I could get her a different hairstyle, more of a "girl you'd meet" than "GRRRRRR SPARTA" lady.

I certainly hope they'll have better hair models this time SPECIALLY if I won't be able to mod it, but back to the question...

Right, Lara Croft is hugely famous amongst girls AND boys. It's not only because she is "wow" looking, but also because a lot of people enjoy the stories. Halo STARTED with the chief, but by halo reach you can also choose a female Spartan, and most of the ads featured strong women - Examples: 
Halo Deliver Hope features the female lead carrying a bomb and the view of war through her eyes
The "short film" of reach shows a military female leaving reach and her family.

Fable 3 also made advances in showing the gender free and let us NOT forget that it also appealed to the gay communities with the "free gender marriage" option.
I mean, HELLO it's 2012 guys! We don't want Rambos anymore!

One of the things I loved about Bioware is the character customization, and I'd like it to keep that way! I want them to address us as the RPG fans we are, not to turn it into a generic thing or follow some other game footsteps because "it will mix the customers"!

We WANT a female hawk, maybe even three different ones to show the character customization! 
I don't like the spartan looking Hawk...

[Wicked 702]

Andy Luvv wrote...

I'd say even use her face. Someone mentioned that the femhawke is "tough as nails".

Holy moly! FemHawke is Meg Whitman!

[HolyJellyfish]

@Kakistos_

Here Here. Thank you.



@Maria Caliban

That is exactly my point.



@Lilacs

No, they aren't. In the demo-combat game, you CAN play either male or female Hawke (That's nice), but you wouldn't know that unless you got your hands on the demo-combat. And that wouldn't happen unless you were press or at a convention.



Destructoid doesn't work for Bioware. He is an independent writer. I was very pleased he decided to take on the review in a different direction (Female Hawke), but the lack of Lady Hawke screen shots that could mix in with the Male Hawke screenshots show you some weakness to Bioware's PR material. I would love to see more writers decide to review in the perspective of Female Hawke, and match it with the Male Hawke screenshots. Maybe Bioware would realize that confusion could be easily cleared if they provided more Female Hawke screenshots.



So yes. Bioware needs to make more of an effort outside of demo play that isn't even being shown publicly (Unless its through an independent avenue) and a single screenshot floating around of Lady Hawke that isn't even on their official website.