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A Request to Bioware


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#501
Liablecocksman

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HolyJellyfish wrote...
No, they aren't. In the demo-combat game, you CAN play either male or female Hawke (That's nice), but you wouldn't know that unless you got your hands on the demo-combat. And that wouldn't happen unless you were press or at a convention.

Destructoid doesn't work for Bioware. He is an independent writer. I was very pleased he decided to take on the review in a different direction (Female Hawke), but the lack of Lady Hawke screen shots that could mix in with the Male Hawke screenshots show you some weakness to Bioware's PR material. I would love to see more writers decide to review in the perspective of Female Hawke, and match it with the Male Hawke screenshots. Maybe Bioware would realize that confusion could be easily cleared if they provided more Female Hawke screenshots.

So yes. Bioware needs to make more of an effort outside of demo play that isn't even being shown publicly (Unless its through an independent avenue) and a single screenshot floating around of Lady Hawke that isn't even on their official website.


So I went away from this topic, but I'm back again.
I know you've missed me, Jellyfish.

I'm going to respond to the bolded part of your above post in particular.

That is exactly the opposite of what you should be arguing. I've said this numerous times here already, albeit a few pages back now.

Bioware has a lot of numbers available to them that you and I will never get our hands on. That is multiplied by the level of expertise of the EA marketing-team. Believe you me, when I say EA marketing is damn good at selling games - that's why they're at EA.

Bioware/EA-marketing is obtaining exactly the results that they want with their PR/marketing campaign of DA2. They are grabbing hold of the male casual-gamer market. They are attracting, I imagine, mostly shooter- and action/adventure-game fans. "Press a button and something awesome happens", "Not like playing chess", "Fast-paced", etc. etc. The "Fight like a spartan" and all the instances in which rogues are described as "ninjas" or something to the like also particularly stand out. It's a mash-up of pop-culture references, and cool concepts and ideas.

It's being marketed to the same crowd as Mass Effect 2, only this time we aren't "in the darker and more gritty second chapter", but instead in the "sexier, grittier and deadlier sequel"(or whatever the phrasing is).

It is remarkably similar - and can you blame Bioware/EA for trying to emulate the marketing-campaign that brought them the biggest sales-totals of any of their modern-day games?

I've already agreed that you should expect to be told, that "female Hawke" is an option, on the website, and somewhere not hidden-away like the FAQ... Although I don't think you should expect any screenshots or videos, and if they come, don't expect to find them without flipping through pages of other screenshots first.

Bioware are, in essence (and sorry if anyone is offended by this), going for the frat-boy crowd, because the frat-boy-gamer crowd is growing every year (with the large majority being in console-purchase-and-gaming) and such people will often not want to play a game that has female(or even makes them a possibility) lead characters. They take one glance at female Hawke and go "What the hell?" then look at the word "Story" in turn it off. As long as "Story" is only mentioned in reference to male Hawke and "Rise to power!! Become awesome champion of Kirkwall and wield sword and cool magic while you rip people in two with giant hands" it's alright.

I mean, you're (women) not the only ones being overlooked here. The marketing isn't focusing on stereotypical gamers either - just like the game is being tweaked to be a lot more accessible (possibly losing a few RPG-features in the process) because it needs to appeal to a larger audience.

Then again, I'm being melodramatic - the group "male rpgamers" aren't really being overlooked, we just aren't being specifically targeted... Kind of like you guys. The only group Bioware/EA-marketing is specifically aiming for, is the casual frat-boy-crowd, who will look at the game for two seconds and then buy it ("Wow this game looks cool!") - then again, it's people like you who prove this kind of marketing to work. People need to be interested from the get-go, else they will walk away.

You walked away from the original Mass Effect because you couldn't clearly see right away that you could play a female character. It wouldn't, for instance, have taken more than "Mass Effect character creator" on YouTube to show you that you could, hell I'm pretty sure you could even watch that video on their own website.

This means, in essence, that Bioware was missing out on the whole casual frat-boy crowd in DA:O, but managed to draw them in with Mass Effect 2.  That means they need to appeal instantly to this crowd, with box-art, website and everything, to get those same sales-totals.

Bioware values marketing towards the "frat-boy crowd" over the average "female gamer" - that is obvious.
Is it sexist? Certainly not.
Does it, mayhap, have to do with wanting to make as much money as possible? Certainly!

EDIT:
Another worthwhile mention of the overhaul DA2 is getting from the chess-like original is the graphics style. The game is meant to look cooler, the interface is being simplified and the game... Let me just quote the website: "Discover a whole realm rendered in stunning detail with updated graphics and a new visual style." Nobody, I repeat nobody, will think DA2 looks like some state-of-the-art game, and the fact that it's being blown up as one of the main features is... Embarrassing. But you see, the casual crowd cares a lot more about graphics than you and me - and when they can read "stunning detail" and even "new visual style" on a box (or front page of the website) they get very interested.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 21 décembre 2010 - 11:27 .


#502
HolyJellyfish

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@liable****sman



Hey Liable. I've decided that instead of arguing about all the reasons its a bad idea to market Female Hawke, that maybe we should talk about all the FEASIBLE ways she can be marketted.



I suggested a little bit of Web Content + Screen caps.



Someone else suggested a limited supply of lady hawke only covers, that fans can buy which would surely go away.



Do you have any suggestions?



BTW - No, I didn't bother reading your post. I apologize, but I'm really not interested in the whole 'It can't be done' argument. I'm on the 'But it can be done, even with the male franchise in mind. Here are some helpful strategies'.



Are you with me or against me?

#503
HolyJellyfish

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Oh and read Destructoid's review of DA2. Its interesting. He writes with Lady Hawke, but because Bioware only provided male hawke screenshots, there's a disconnection.

That shouldn't have to happen. Hence my point earlier. A lot more reviewers may end up doing that too. So I think a good way to fix the problem is offering more lady hawke screen grabs in case reviewers do independently choose Lady Hawke, as Destructoid did.

Here is the article by the way

#504
Liablecocksman

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HolyJellyfish wrote...

@liable****sman

Hey Liable. I've decided that instead of arguing about all the reasons its a bad idea to market Female Hawke, that maybe we should talk about all the FEASIBLE ways she can be marketted.
I suggested a little bit of Web Content + Screen caps.
Someone else suggested a limited supply of lady hawke only covers, that fans can buy which would surely go away.
Do you have any suggestions?
BTW - No, I didn't bother reading your post. I apologize, but I'm really not interested in the whole 'It can't be done' argument. I'm on the 'But it can be done, even with the male franchise in mind. Here are some helpful strategies'.
Are you with me or against me?


Given that, you know, I had to read to the bottom of your post to see that you hadn't read mine, I couldn't really act in a similar manner... Unfortunately.

I'm not going to bother telling you why your argument and wish is futile then, since you obviously won't listen. I've already stated that what you're asking is ideal, and should be possible, but it doesn't look like it is.

You consistently debate whether or not female Hawke should be placed in the front row of the advertisment-campaign of DA2, and when people then tell you "She should, but isn't going to", you retreat into some sort of shell where the only thing you say is "But are you with me or against me? Don't you have any ideas, then?" and so on.

If you're not going to actually own up to your own debates, don't incite them.

.......

Whoops, look what happened while I was writing this post.

He writes with Lady Hawke, but because Bioware only provided male hawke screenshots, there's a disconnection.

That shouldn't have to happen. Hence my point earlier. A lot more reviewers may end up doing that too. So I think a good way to fix the problem is offering more lady hawke screen grabs in case reviewers do independently choose Lady Hawke, as Destructoid did.


You see, you're continuing the debate that you weren't going to continue...

Anyhow, you should really reconsider what you're saying there. Nobody not already firmly in BioWares fanbase(or at the least a non-casual gamer) is going to read previews of games.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 21 décembre 2010 - 11:46 .


#505
HolyJellyfish

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@liable****sman



I didn't thoroughly read your post, but I skimmed it. Its the same circled argument we've been having over and over and over again where you are on your 'But it would hurt the male franchise' camp and I'm on the 'But it won't if you are smart' camp.



So we will always disagree forever and ever.



Instead of disagreeing, I just want to work with people to come up with ideas and strategies to fix the problem. If you are so determined a few screen caps and information would hurt Hawke's image, than staying here on a 'Support More Hawke Female Content' thread probably isn't going to be your cup of tea.



However, if you have some good ideas that you think would help resolve the issue without hurting the male franchise, they would be wonderful.

#506
Liablecocksman

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HolyJellyfish wrote...



@liable****sman



I didn't thoroughly read your post, but I skimmed it. Its the same circled argument we've been having over and over and over again where you are on your 'But it would hurt the male franchise' camp and I'm on the 'But it won't if you are smart' camp.


Exactly, which is why it doesn't make sense that you are even staying in the thread, because this isn't a "Supp--"*



Instead of disagreeing, I just want to work with people to come up with ideas and strategies to fix the problem.


An amiable goal, certainly.



If you are so determined a few screen caps and information would hurt Hawke's image, than staying here on a 'Support More Hawke Female Content' thread probably isn't going to be your cup of tea.




*"ort More Hawke Female Content" - it's a thread dedicated to Bioware, by a frustrated female user disappointed that female Hawke was not found on the cover of the box. This is a forum, if you don't want people debating whether or not what you're saying is valid (while staying on-topic), it is you and not I who should maybe consider leaving this thread.



If you're looking for a "Support" thread, just create one. "For all women who want female Hawke screenshots!" I can see it clear as day, you'll get tons of the "Yeah, it sucks that there are no screenshots (yet, hopefully! :))" and "I agree totally!!" posts. If you're really lucky, you might even get a simple "+1", since that seems to be what you're looking for.



However, if you have some good ideas that you think would help resolve the issue without hurting the male franchise, they would be wonderful.


If I had, I would probably be employed in marketing. I am not.

However, I don't think you should assume that Bioware and EA-marketing is intentionally missing out on the female market, had they considered it possible to include them.

#507
HolyJellyfish

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So the Thread has shifted into this conversation. She put her ideas out, I've put my ideas out, a lot of guys and girls have put ideas out, but I've heard nothing but 'It isn't possible' 'it isn't feasible' 'no' 'no' 'no' 'no'.

I want to solve the issue, because representation is important to me.

I am in marketing, design, and advertisement. That's why I'm not interested in arguing. If you want to disagree, go find someone else on the thread. Seeking me out to debate isn't feasible however. It doesn't get either of us anywhere because our opinions are so different.

And you don't have to be in marketing to have good ideas. Just suggestions are nice.

And they are missing out if there are lady customers who casually go on bioware and aren't interested because of lack of lady-character information. To be frank, a lot of people on this thread tend to agree.

I only want a few screen grabs and website acknowledgement. Most people on here believe that's a good idea. I've had one exception, but I think he changed his mind once he realized it wouldn't deviate from branding. I don't think its a bad idea.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 21 décembre 2010 - 12:06 .


#508
Liablecocksman

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HolyJellyfish wrote...

So the Thread has shifted into this conversation. She put her ideas out, I've put my ideas out, a lot of guys and girls have put ideas out, but I've heard nothing but 'It isn't possible' 'it isn't feasible' 'no' 'no' 'no' 'no'.

I want to solve the issue, because representation is important to me.

You don't say.

I am in marketing, design, and advertisement. That's why I'm not interested in arguing. If you want to disagree, go find someone else on the thread. Seeking me out to debate isn't feasible however. It doesn't get either of us anywhere because our opinions are so different.

Gee - really? I don't have to debate you because we have different opinions? That seems incredible awesome.
Your argument, however, consists of "I think it would be better for me, personally, if they had more screenshots of female Hawke".
My argument consists of something I'd like to consider a little more substanstial than that, regardless of the fact that most of it is speculation on my part. If you're actually interested, most of my points are listed in the post that you decided not to read...

And you don't have to be in marketing to have good ideas. Just suggestions are nice.

Yeah, I know - but so far there are no suggestions. From anyone apart from yourself, that is.

And they are missing out if there are lady customers who casually go on bioware and aren't interested because of lack of lady-character information. To be frank, a lot of people on this thread tend to agree.

You don't say. I touched upon this in my post. The one you didn't read.
Bioware isn't descriminating, they're just weighing each segment of the market, and deciding which one they want to cater to.

I only want a few screen grabs and website acknowledgement. Most people on here believe that's a good idea. I've had one exception, but I think he changed his mind once he realized it wouldn't deviate from branding. I don't think its a bad idea.

No.
We all believe it to be a good idea in theory that everyone should have access to screenshots of either gender - while myself and ziggy(the other guy you're talking about), and possibly others, are arguing that maybe it wouldn't benefit Bioware - possibly harm the marketing campaign, in fact - if they actually implemented it.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 21 décembre 2010 - 12:17 .


#509
Ziggeh

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HolyJellyfish wrote...

I only want a few screen grabs and website acknowledgement. Most people on here believe that's a good idea. I've had one exception, but I think he changed his mind once he realized it wouldn't deviate from branding. I don't think its a bad idea.

Never changed my mind, I think it would deviate from branding, which is why they're unlikely to do it, but think they should do it anyway.

#510
HolyJellyfish

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@Lieble****sman



I tell you what. If you want to continue hashing this out, feel free to PM me.



@Zigge

I understand. Thank you.

#511
Liablecocksman

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HolyJellyfish wrote...

@Lieble****sman

I tell you what. If you want to continue hashing this out, feel free to PM me.


I'm not going to PM you, but we can chat in this topic, if you like? You're the one off-roading it by constantly refusing to argue, even though you actually incite the arguments yourself.

Who am I kidding, there is no point in us arguing any more - as you rightly noted. Quite astute, you are, that you can spot that you will ruin my attempts at debate, before I have any knowledge of such.

Good evening/day/night, where you may be in the world. Now I'm going to drink a cup of coffee and watch an episode of Family Guy, so I can get my engines running at full speed again :-) I wish you good luck in your quest for female Hawke justice, regardless of how futile such a quest may prove to be.


ziggehunderslash wrote...
Never changed my mind, I think it would deviate from branding, which is why they're unlikely to do it, but think they should do it anyway.


Sorry for calling you "Ziggy" there, I did it minutes ago in another thread as well... Not that far of, though, right?

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 21 décembre 2010 - 12:29 .


#512
HolyJellyfish

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I already sent you a PM. I'm willing to talk about it, but doing so on the threads can create more aggression and frustration than it does a dialogue. I don't want people jumping on the 'IT CAN'T!' or "IT CAN!' be bandwagon.

#513
Ziggeh

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Liable****sman wrote...

Sorry for calling you "Ziggy" there, I did it minutes ago in another thread as well... Not that far of, though, right?

That's generally the name I go by, it evolved to "ziggeh_" through obscure processes. Never really occured to me I'd gain interest in the forum, so it was just a random username at the time. Is it possible to change it?

#514
Leonia

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Liable****sman wrote...

Sorry for calling you "Ziggy" there, I did it minutes ago in another thread as well... Not that far of, though, right?

That's generally the name I go by, it evolved to "ziggeh_" through obscure processes. Never really occured to me I'd gain interest in the forum, so it was just a random username at the time. Is it possible to change it?


No idea but if you find out let me know, I'd love to have a less generic sounding username. This was just a placeholder I created when I couldn't think of a name ('tis my usual username for other sites) but I sometimes wish I could use a more RP-savvy name. 

#515
Liablecocksman

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ziggehunderslash wrote...
That's generally the name I go by,
it evolved to "ziggeh_" through obscure processes. Never really occured
to me I'd gain interest in the forum, so it was just a random username
at the time. Is it possible to change it?


I'm afraid not. I'm sure I've read that your Bioware Social name is permanent, and directly tied to your EA-account as well(your sign-up email).

That's quite off-topic though, so do you have anything to add to the discussion?
I, for one, would like to have it made public knowledge that I am legitimately disappointed in how Bioware is marketing Dragon Age 2, but at the same time cannot fault them for wanting to match Dragon Age 2 sales with their Mass Effect 2 sales.

leonia42 wrote...
No idea but if you find out let me know, I'd love to have a less generic sounding username. This was just a placeholder I created when I couldn't think of a name ('tis my usual username for other sites) but I sometimes wish I could use a more RP-savvy name. 


I'm quite sure you're stuck with your current one, leonia42. Forever.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 21 décembre 2010 - 12:45 .


#516
HolyJellyfish

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I wanted to say briefly that I didn't mean to appear short or rude on this forum, I'm just a little frustrated with the whole 'It can't be done' 'you are wrong' 'it is bad' argument. It makes me feel less important just because I am a woman who is interested in a little bit of representation, be it a few screen grabs and information. I don't think I'm the only one.

Anyways, some articles I found really fascinating about marketing to women.

Gears of War lynchpin Cliff Bleszinski believes Sony undersold Heavy Rain by not marketing the game directly to women. (Sales Suffered by keeping their campaign gender exclusive)
Girls would love Heavy Rain

Lionhead Studios, who are good at selling a game to both women + men in their campaigns, show off healthy numbers, breaking charts in their sales and revealing 30% of buyers are women.
Lionhead predicts record numbers (Article is dated)

Guardian, Top 20 games of 2010: Fable III

Fable III sales beat Fable II
(Editted for proper link)

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 21 décembre 2010 - 01:21 .


#517
Stanley Woo

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And that seems like a good way to end this thread without any hard feelings on either side. Thanks, everyone.



End of line.