516 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

joriandrake wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Aetheria wrote...

What I would like, however, is more information for the fans who play female characters. While I don't care about the ad campaign, I do want screenshots of character creation and gameplay with a female PC. Only giving out videos and screens of a male PC doesn't seem fair. Making it clear on the game's website and such that you can choose your PC's gender wouldn't hurt, either.

This.

While I support the more "gender-equal advertising", i have to ask if girls seriously never play as male characters? Ever? Even the girls who play(ed) pnp?

Certainly I've played male characters, both in games where you can choose gender and games where it's pre-determined. But where there is choice, male tends to be the default/canon gender. If there was a movie based on Dragon Age, do you think the Warden Commander would be cast as a female?

I'm not really complaining. It's just how things *are*. But I suppose thinking about it, and hearing that game sales are stronger using this method, makes me a little resigned that it will always be this way. Strongly cast heroines are few and far between.

Edit: It's hardly Bioware's job to change the world, and I don't expect them to, btw. But I must say if a number of people didn't even know ME had the *option* of being female, something is going wrong in the marketing department.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 09 juillet 2010 - 08:04 .

[Nerevar-as]

David Gaider wrote...

There's already a thread on this very subject, but I'll respond to it with my thoughts:

I'd love to see a female iconic character. I adore female action heroines-- maybe it's a Ripley fixation from watching Alien/Aliens when I was much younger, I don't know.

That said, I can kind of get why we might choose an iconic male character. For an RPG we're talking about putting forward a character that you'd like to be... and as much as a female player says that they can't identify with a male iconic character, if that's true it would also be true in reverse with a female iconic character for a much larger portion of the fanbase, no? You can't have it both ways and say that male players will enjoy looking at a female player character and don't need to identify with her.

I also suspect that if we did put forward a female iconic character (a la Aribeth) the response could easily be that we made her too sexy. A bit of "damned if you do, damned if you don't", perhaps. Hard to say, but we're going to always have to pick one, and the idea is to be eye-catching and sexy-- as opposed to politically correct. I'm no marketing guy, but that seems to be pretty much a given.

That said, I hope you enjoy the character and the game for what it is, rather than dwelling on what you perceive it might have been. You do get to play a female character, and as always we make plenty of options to accomodate female players in the game.

Hope that helps. Cheers!

Got the Ripley fiaxation too. It´s why I usually played with female characters. But the romance options were always better playing male.
The Aribeth thing is simple Mr. Gaider. Give a female character sensible armor and not cleavage armors (DA:O leather? Please. And average measures.

[Layn]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
If there was a movie based on Dragon Age, do you think the Warden Commander would be cast as a female?

human noble female of course. That's what she is, isn't she?

Aetheria wrote...

It seems that the real reason most are
giving for wanting to see a female character in advertising/promo images
is that they want to feel included. But why? If you already know enough
about the game to know the main character can be female and to complain
about not seeing her in ads, you don't need advertising to tell
you about the game in the first place. Ads aren't made for people who
already know about and want the game; they're there to entice as large a
number of people as possible to casually pick up the game in a store
and think about buying it.

Men don't need a man on the cover to be interested in buying a game. However women most of the time don't get interested about a game that pushes a generic angry male as the lead. I'm pretty sure that not all women are on this forum and already know about this game.
is it really that bad advertising to push the idea "be the hero you want to be" while showing several possible versions of Hawke? with the blood dragon looming over it all as THE icon?

[Jean]

... Yeah, that's getting rather old.

[Gaxhung]

Personally I am not particular about this, male or female, only thing that matters to me is having a good look. Like Shepard from ME, like Kratos, Gordon Freeman, Link (Zelda), Leon Kennedy (RE4) list goes on.

The most iconic image for DA is obviously the red dragon, with Morrigan and some warrior. Morrigan is an important character, and most importantly for sales, she looks totally hot, and the faceless warrior is some bada** who is generically you. These are images for the viewer to latch on to, to identify with the game.

For DA2 since they changed the formula, you no longer play a random origin character, it makes sense for them to change the game image to suit, to highlight this change. So players will get a hint from the cover itself of what to expect, to expect a shift in focus.

Having a male warrior on the cover possibly also conveys more brutish action and violence? At least sets that sort of expectation.

[Akka le Vil]

That said, I can kind of get why we might choose an iconic male character. For an RPG we're talking about putting forward a character that you'd like to be... and as much as a female player says that they can't identify with a male iconic character, if that's true it would also be true in reverse with a female iconic character for a much larger portion of the fanbase, no? You can't have it both ways and say that male players will enjoy looking at a female player character and don't need to identify with her.

I also suspect that if we did put forward a female iconic character (a la Aribeth) the response could easily be that we made her too sexy. A bit of "damned if you do, damned if you don't", perhaps. Hard to say, but we're going to always have to pick one, and the idea is to be eye-catching and sexy-- as opposed to politically correct. I'm no marketing guy, but that seems to be pretty much a given.

Hey, you know what ?
That is marketing, all that I hate.

But at least it's honest. As shocking as it may be, it's maybe one of the very few times I've actually seen someone frankly and blankly admit that "it's just better for the sales".

I still hate marketing and the like, but I wanted to gratz you for being forthright and honest.

[Layn]

Gaxhung wrote...

Having a male warrior on the cover possibly also conveys more brutish action and violence? At least sets that sort of expectation.

i damn well hope that it isn't like that

i also dislike Kratos and standard Shepard, don't care about Leon and don't ever see Gordon

[joriandrake]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Aetheria wrote...

What I would like, however, is more information for the fans who play female characters. While I don't care about the ad campaign, I do want screenshots of character creation and gameplay with a female PC. Only giving out videos and screens of a male PC doesn't seem fair. Making it clear on the game's website and such that you can choose your PC's gender wouldn't hurt, either.

This.

While I support the more "gender-equal advertising", i have to ask if girls seriously never play as male characters? Ever? Even the girls who play(ed) pnp?

Certainly I've played male characters, both in games where you can choose gender and games where it's pre-determined. But where there is choice, male tends to be the default/canon gender. If there was a movie based on Dragon Age, do you think the Warden Commander would be cast as a female?

I'm not really complaining. It's just how things *are*. But I suppose thinking about it, and hearing that game sales are stronger using this method, makes me a little resigned that it will always be this way. Strongly cast heroines are few and far between.

Edit: It's hardly Bioware's job to change the world, and I don't expect them to, btw. But I must say if a number of people didn't even know ME had the *option* of being female, something is going wrong in the marketing department.

I played KOTOR1 as male, KOTOR2 as female, interestingly later it turned out that both of these and my choices were canon

in Dragon Age despite being male myself my main character was a female city elf warrior (massive armor, two-weapon style, strategist and cutpurse, Templar and Champion, overall the knight/paladin kinda girl who didn't always follow the laws for the greater good like at the start of her origin where she just killed the raping bastard nobleson)


edit: my main character in ME trilogy is male, but not the basic guy, i made him in hours to look somewhat nice but also realistic and not too model-like, in the end i made a good guy who looks like someone in his thirties who had some military experience and has a nice smile too)

Modifié par joriandrake, 09 juillet 2010 - 12:07 .

[Vincentdante]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Vincentdante wrote...

out of everything that came from the outburst today this is the lamest. Talk about judging a book by it's cover and don't give me that "it appeals to the minority" crap cause it doesn't, you guys just made it a big thing. You might as well go over to Activision and complain to them not putting female soldier on COD's front cover. The principle is the same, go on do it. If this is a big major thing that can ruin every female gamers enjoyment then you would be hypocritical NOT to.

The issue at hand is not really about cover art, although yeah it would be great to have LadyHawke on the cover along with the male version (even if she's only in the background).  It's about female gamers getting to see a little of the character that they will most likely be playing--and maybe getting a little marketing thrown to the new gamers who will be playing the female (because not just girls will play girls, you know).

It already is a "big issue" when Bioware has a respectable number of women in the community--we don't have to make it one.  I doubt COD has quite the same male-to-female ratio of players that Bioware has, though I might be surprised.  Again, take my scenario where there's an awesome game coming out with an ugly female protagonist.  If you happened to buy the game, the male protagonist might actually be a better experience in-game, but you still would not know anything about that character until you played the game (if you weren't so shallow that you just didn't buy it).

I'm not even arguing equality of marketing, just some representation, some acknowledgment that not all of the fans are male and, you know, those of us who are going to play the female character would probably like to know what she'll look and sound like before we buy the game.  We know it's probably going to be great, and we know that we most likely won't have a horrible in-game experience, but that isn't the point.  I've already said that I'll buy the game regardless, but I think a lot more female gamers could be brought in through advertising, and I'd also like to know a bit about that character that I'm going to be playing the most (you know, the curvy one who doesn't have a beard?)--like how her voice acting's going to be and who's going to be performing her voice, for instance--before the release date.

Yeah I want to apologize for that comment last night. It was late in my timezone so I was tired, and all I read all day was alot of negativity (which I admit I was completley sweapt away in) so my mood was also dampened. I'm actually quiet calm irl would you believe lol.

I still don't think it's such a big deal but I agree with one thing being a geeky white male gamer I don't understand what it's like to be in the minority. So I'll concede that it's possible that your frustrated. I'm sorry but thats the best you can get out of me.

I do want to point out that my COD scenario lies true though, it looks pretty bad from the outside if you only care about female gamer advertisement only on the games you like. It's not really professional.

[Wrathra]

joriandrake wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Aetheria wrote...

What I would like, however, is more information for the fans who play female characters. While I don't care about the ad campaign, I do want screenshots of character creation and gameplay with a female PC. Only giving out videos and screens of a male PC doesn't seem fair. Making it clear on the game's website and such that you can choose your PC's gender wouldn't hurt, either.

This.

While I support the more "gender-equal advertising", i have to ask if girls seriously never play as male characters? Ever? Even the girls who play(ed) pnp?
If so then it is weird because I think male players can very well roleplay females for a campaign and get into role, not just playing to see a girl's ass on monitor the whole time, and I also think girls should be able to roleplay a male character. It isn't like all girls or boys act the same anyway, they can also all be rude or kind, shy or aggressive, intricate or blunt.

I can role play a male character fine.  I play male characters in games all the time. But I will not put my money down on a game where I am forced to do so.   I won't whine about it, but I protest the only way I can, with my wallet.

[Deputy Secretary of Awesome]

Clearly the male Hawke will be the centrepiece of the marketing campaign in all its "Leonidas-y" glory. And frankly male Hawke looks incredibly cool. Love the beard! But I agree with the OP, it would be nice to see "some", not necessarily a large amount, but some marketing for the female Hawke (hopefully with an iconic Ladyhawke default design). It could even just be viral marketing, or just online stuff for fans interested in playing a female Hawke. I daresay even a small trailer? Something to show off the look and style and feel of what a female Hawke in Dragon Age could be like.



Come on, throw us a bone?

[alexmasterson123]

Wrathra wrote...

I can role play a male character fine.  I play male characters in games all the time. But I will not put my money down on a game where I am forced to do so.

I don't get it  - why not? That's like me saying I refuse to read Pride & Prejudice because the main character is a woman. If a story is focussed on a bloke, it's not because the writer is sexist; it's because the story is focussed on a bloke.

In DA2 we will be able to choose between male and female anyway, so what's the fuss?

[ahnnajade]

Crrash wrote...

is it really that bad advertising to push the idea "be the hero you want to be" while showing several possible versions of Hawke? with the blood dragon looming over it all as THE icon?

It makes it somehow less personal? Whether or not mr poster boy hero is at all like my character (he's not, she'd be much cooler), the role is meant to, or so I imagine, feel individual and possibly even intimate?

Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about at all because I can't really explain it, but having a single image to imprint on rather than a select-a-hero lineup sounds more up that way of thinking. Not in any major ways of course, just a little, and in the end it doesn't really matter anyway cause I'd have been interested in the game regardless. The guy on the cover usually got me fairly interested, only rarely did it actually disinterest me in a game. Especially in this case, I was never really worried that Hawke couldn't be female, even after knowing she'd.. he'd.. be only one race.

I am bored of the dark haired pseudo good looking white guy placebos though.

[Ziggy]

I get that it helps promotion to have a recognisable poster boy, but it was pretty sad how badly femshep got sidelined in ME - no publicity, no effort put into the default character, clearly masculine movements. I really hope the same does not happen again here.

[Wrathra]

alexmasterson123 wrote...

Wrathra wrote...

I can role play a male character fine.  I play male characters in games all the time. But I will not put my money down on a game where I am forced to do so.

I don't get it  - why not? That's like me saying I refuse to read Pride & Prejudice because the main character is a woman. If a story is focussed on a bloke, it's not because the writer is sexist; it's because the story is focussed on a bloke.

In DA2 we will be able to choose between male and female anyway, so what's the fuss?

Apples and oranges.

I never said the writer was sexist.  I said I will not play a RPG where I am forced to play a male character. If that is what your story is about, that's fine.  It's my money, and if your development team can't figure out a way to have both sexes be their hero in their RPG, like BG, or DA, or even Ultima back in the day, you don't get my money. (I probably should have clarified and said I won't buy an RPG like that. Sorry!)

Bioware has been good to its female players. The fact that it is one of the few developers that IS good to its female players is sad, considering we're 50% of the population and what was the number someone threw out, 40% of the player base?  

By their nature RPGs are about choice.  If the character is predetermined, there is no choice, and it's technically not an RPG, but an adventure game, which is different.   The way ME was marketed, it looked like I had to play a hulking generic space marine. Didn't interest me, so I didn't buy it.  

I am probably derailing this thread sorry.  

Sorry if I sound pissy, I'm at work and have to write fast.

Modifié par Wrathra, 09 juillet 2010 - 02:32 .

[mousestalker]

David Gaider wrote...

octoberfire wrote...
You did fine with DAO's blood spatter dragon shape. Why have an iconic character at all on the cover, then?

I imagine it's considered beneficial to have a "face" for the game that is identifiable, part of the branding in the same way that a logo would be. The people who come here certainly don't need any help identifying what Dragon Age is-- naturally-- but then again they don't particularly need marketing in the first place. All you guys want is information.

And ponies. Preferably rainbow coloured.

[kaispan]

I just can't bring myself to be offended by this. Maybe it helps having a background in promotional/design work with all the corresponding attention to target audiences, but it makes sense to me. Personally I feel like it would be asking more of the male demographic if the situations were reversed; maybe I'm used to being in the minority or overlooked or something (or have a correspondingly lower opinion of 18-35 yo males' ability to be visually objective ), but it doesn't really bother me. ...Or at least I can understand it. The important part to me is what's inside the box.

That said, it would be awesome to see... I would just be afraid that it would only be successful at smoothing some ruffled feathers rather than ensnaring the attention of new gamers, which I believe is the whole point. (And plus, the likely female alternative would almost have to be oversexualized or scantily clad to be attention-getting which really does offend me).

Anyway, what do I care? I haven't seen any of the material released yet and Bioware's already got my attention.  Can't really blame them for what is essentially a fault of the culture, if anyone actually needs to be blamed.

[snfonseka]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Consider this my open letter.

Bioware,

If there is a possibility to make Hawke female, many of your female fans would greatly appreciate it if you did not solely promote the male version.  I am aware that there aren't as many female players as male players overall.  However, Bioware seems to have a large number of female fans, and we tend to feel left out when only male Shepard, and now only male Hawke, is referred to in advertising and interviews.  While I, and I'm sure the other females who play the games, don't demand a "he or she" every time you reference the character, is a little cover art of the default female too much to ask for?  Please?

...

 Thank you.

Let us hope that they will listen...

[alexmasterson123]

Wrathra wrote...

alexmasterson123 wrote...

Wrathra wrote...

I can role play a male character fine.  I play male characters in games all the time. But I will not put my money down on a game where I am forced to do so.

I don't get it  - why not? That's like me saying I refuse to read Pride & Prejudice because the main character is a woman. If a story is focussed on a bloke, it's not because the writer is sexist; it's because the story is focussed on a bloke.

In DA2 we will be able to choose between male and female anyway, so what's the fuss?

Apples and oranges.

I never said the writer was sexist.  I said I will not play a RPG where I am forced to play a male character. If that is what your story is about, that's fine.  It's my money, and if your development team can't figure out a way to have both sexes be their hero in their RPG, like BG, or DA, or even Ultima back in the day, you don't get my money. (I probably should have clarified and said I won't buy an RPG like that. Sorry!)

Bioware has been good to its female players. The fact that it is one of the few developers that IS good to its female players is sad, considering we're 50% of the population and what was the number someone threw out, 40% of the player base?  

By their nature RPGs are about choice.  If the character is predetermined, there is no choice, and it's technically not an RPG, but an adventure game, which is different.   The way ME was marketed, it looked like I had to play a hulking generic space marine. Didn't interest me, so I didn't buy it.  

I am probably derailing this thread sorry.  

Sorry if I sound pissy, I'm at work and have to write fast.

Not at all!
Ahh okay, you're the one being sexist. Got it

(I kid, I kid)

Well, in the little we've seen of DA2 marketing so far, there's nothing that's wildly different to their previous games - all the other titles, which have contributed to your knowledge that BW puts effort into properly representing the better sex, have had similar marketing campaigns to this, so I don't think there's any need to suddenly worry that Bioware will start shunning female players. It's all about looking past the marketing (which the developers have no say in) and trusting the devs to not suddenly (and bizarrely) make a U-turn and start taking steps backwards undoing all the hard work they've put in over the years. I think it's very unlikely

Modifié par alexmasterson123, 09 juillet 2010 - 03:08 .

[Ziggy]

alexmasterson123 wrote...
Well, in the little we've seen of DA2 marketing so far, there's nothing that's wildly different to their previous games - all the other titles, which have contributed to your knowledge that BW puts effort into properly representing the better sex, have had similar marketing campaigns to this, so I don't think there's any need to suddenly worry that Bioware will start shunning female players.

I think you're overlooking ME2, that game was pretty male oriented.

[snfonseka]

Cast you vote...



http://social.biowar...933/polls/7825/

[TazSmith]

Brass_Buckles wrote...

Consider this my open letter.

Bioware,

If
there is a possibility to make Hawke female, many of your female fans
would greatly appreciate it if you did not solely promote the male
version.  I am aware that there aren't as many female players as male
players overall.  However, Bioware seems to have a large number of
female fans, and we tend to feel left out when only male Shepard, and
now only male Hawke, is referred to in advertising and interviews. 
While I, and I'm sure the other females who play the games, don't
demand a "he or she" every time you reference the character, is a
little cover art of the default female too much to ask for?  Please?

...

 Thank you.

My girlfriend nor bestfriend (girl) don’t of mind nor even complain why there’s no female character in DA. So I think no need for it and if Bioware answer your call much better but if not we still don’t mind. Coz theres a similarities that we prefer to be dominate in any aspect even in capitalizing and buy wow gold

FYI, many girls in iRL much prefer to have a male toon than female and some of guy (iRL)  prefer to used female char in other MMO dunno what their primary reason but they just do.

edit: if theres a female option, prayers of Brass_Buckles are granted. lol *peace*

Modifié par TazSmith, 09 juillet 2010 - 09:32 .

[Nerevar-as]

There is female option. Lady Hawke, (Michelle Pfeifer voice, please?), which brings better memories than Hawk the Slayer, really.

[Lord_Saulot]

After seeing the number of players, both yesterday and today, who have presumptively assumed that no female option would be available, it seems clear that if the general public will not understand that the option is there unless they are told.

[Ziggy]

TazSmith wrote...
My girlfriend nor bestfriend (girl) don’t of mind nor even complain why there’s no female character in DA. So I think no need for it and if Bioware answer your call much better but if not we still don’t mind. 

I think your sample size might be a bit small to be making such conclusions...