516 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
 if that's true it would also be true in reverse with a female iconic character for a much larger portion of the fanbase, no?

Ah yes, Majority Rules, forever screwing over the minority.

How is anyone "screwed" by this?  I can think of one segment of the gaming population:  Gamers (male or female) who make impulse buys without doing research and pass over Dragon Age 2 because they cannot identify with the sex of the character on the cover at the point of sale.  And only then if they would have enjoyed the game anyway had the box art been different, so it's even smaller than that.  

The response to simply have two covers, or not identify the character at all, address the issue by skating around it and ignore the impact of that decision either due to a sort of casual, benign ignorance (we don't know how much two different covers would ultimately cost, in production or sales so that factor is just ignored) or creative difference (if Bioware is pushing that unlike DA:O, DA:2 is a more focused and personal story by featuring the protagonist, then having the character on the cover is important to them - even if some people don't think it is)

"I want my playstyle and/or sexual identity to be validated by box art" is not really a compelling argument, and that's what some posts seem like to me.  I'd put those arguments slightly below, "I want something different because it looks cooler on the shelf" in terms of positions that I can empathize with. 

If you're worried about the group I mentioned not getting a game they might love because of the box art, spread the word to a crowd of people who aren't already "in-the-know" - as in not here.  We're already hip to the whole custom character gender thing. 

Last Edit (I think I made ten):  Allll that being said - if you're just in this thread making a casual request to Bioware to consider putting a FemProtagonist on the cover and not really trying to make it more than that - I'm not really talking to you.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 18 décembre 2010 - 11:18 .

[Piecake]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
 if that's true it would also be true in reverse with a female iconic character for a much larger portion of the fanbase, no?

Ah yes, Majority Rules, forever screwing over the minority.

How is anyone "screwed" by this?  I can think of one segment of the gaming population:  Gamers (male or female) who make impulse buys without doing research and pass over Dragon Age 2 because they cannot identify with the sex of the character on the cover at the point of sale.  And only then if they would have enjoyed the game anyway had the box art been different, so it's even smaller than that.  

The response to simply have two covers, or not identify the character at all, address the issue by skating around it and ignore the impact of that decision either due to a sort of casual, benign ignorance (we don't know how much two different covers would ultimately cost, in production or sales so that factor is just ignored) or creative difference (if Bioware is pushing that unlike DA:O, DA:2 is a more focused and personal story by featuring the protagonist, then having the character on the cover is important to them - even if some people don't think it is)

"I want my playstyle and/or sexual identity to be validated by box art" is not really a compelling argument, and that's what some posts seem like to me.  I'd put those arguments slightly below, "I want something different because it looks cooler on the shelf" in terms of positions that I can empathize with. 

If you're worried about the group I mentioned not getting a game they might love because of the box art, spread the word to a crowd of people who aren't already "in-the-know" - as in not here.  We're already hip to the whole custom character gender thing. 

Some people like feeling like the downtrodden and oppressed?

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
 if that's true it would also be true in reverse with a female iconic character for a much larger portion of the fanbase, no?

Ah yes, Majority Rules, forever screwing over the minority.

How is anyone "screwed" by this?  I can think of one segment of the gaming population:  Gamers (male or female) who make impulse buys without doing research and pass over Dragon Age 2 because they cannot identify with the sex of the character on the cover at the point of sale.  And only then if they would have enjoyed the game anyway had the box art been different, so it's even smaller than that.  

The response to simply have two covers, or not identify the character at all, address the issue by skating around it and ignore the impact of that decision either due to a sort of casual, benign ignorance (we don't know how much two different covers would ultimately cost, in production or sales so that factor is just ignored) or creative difference (if Bioware is pushing that unlike DA:O, DA:2 is a more focused and personal story by featuring the protagonist, then having the character on the cover is important to them - even if some people don't think it is)

"I want my playstyle and/or sexual identity to be validated by box art" is not really a compelling argument, and that's what some posts seem like to me.  I'd put those arguments slightly below, "I want something different because it looks cooler on the shelf" in terms of positions that I can empathize with. 

If you're worried about the group I mentioned not getting a game they might love because of the box art, spread the word to a crowd of people who aren't already "in-the-know" - as in not here.  We're already hip to the whole custom character gender thing. 

Last Edit (I think I made ten):  Allll that being said - if you're just in this thread making a casual request to Bioware to consider putting a FemProtagonist on the cover and not really trying to make it more than that - I'm not really talking to you.

I was making a statement addressing their reasoning, which is majority rules, which as previously stated, will always screw the minority. But please, over analyze this post too.

[upsettingshorts]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
I was making a statement addressing their reasoning, which is majority rules, which as previously stated, will always screw the minority.

I can underanalyze too.  Your post is dumb.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 décembre 2010 - 10:52 .

[Liablecocksman]

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
I was making a statement addressing their reasoning, which is majority rules, which as previously stated, will always screw the minority. But please, over analyze this post too.

But catering to the needs or preferences of the majority doesn't necessarily equal screwing over the minority.

[Leonia]

How the heck is anyone being screwed here?

Call me crazy, but, I don't judge a game by its box-art.

Modifié par leonia42, 19 décembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[HolyJellyfish]

I think this needs to be said.

Bioware, you guys really REALLY need to work on marketting the game towards women. You are missing out on tapping into a money making market.

I say this because half a year ago, I would never... never have touched the Dragon Age or Mass Effect games based on the marketting materials I saw. When they were advertised, they came across to me as the following -
"I AM MAN! Because I am man, I have sexy sexy sexy ladies and have chiselled chin and save the world/galaxy/your mom. I flex my pecs. MAN."

That... was a turn off. Right there. I just don't care to play games that are advertised as classic male tropes, no matter the ratings. I just wasn't interested in the games at ALL. Thanks, I'll stick with Fable.

And then, as I was casually skimming through youtube, I found THIS :
A trailer of Mass Effect 2, with a female commander.

It blew my mind. I had no idea, until that point, that you could actually customize the gender of your characters. And you know what makes this sort of sad? Is I bought this game, specifically because of that trailer. That FAN trailer.

Why can't bioware do the same thing? Why can't they offer gameplay peeks, trailers, and snips with the Lady Hawke or any of the leading PC ladies? Just by offering those clips, your sales would probably boost. I wouldn't surprised if there are a LOT of women out there who were on the same page I was, judging a book by its cover because we are long used to the cover of a masculine protoganist saving the world with a sexy lady at his side.

Add some of the PR.

I'd be interested to see if you suddenly draw a lot more women into the game, and therefore expand your pockets.

My two cents, based on my experiences.

[TonyTheBossDanza123]

Liable****sman wrote...

TonyTheBossDanza123 wrote...
I was making a statement addressing their reasoning, which is majority rules, which as previously stated, will always screw the minority. But please, over analyze this post too.

But catering to the needs or preferences of the majority doesn't necessarily equal screwing over the minority.

Not always, not always. But usually.

[HolyJellyfish]

David Gaider wrote...

There's already a thread on this very subject, but I'll respond to it with my thoughts:

I'd love to see a female iconic character. I adore female action heroines-- maybe it's a Ripley fixation from watching Alien/Aliens when I was much younger, I don't know.

That said, I can kind of get why we might choose an iconic male character. For an RPG we're talking about putting forward a character that you'd like to be... and as much as a female player says that they can't identify with a male iconic character, if that's true it would also be true in reverse with a female iconic character for a much larger portion of the fanbase, no? You can't have it both ways and say that male players will enjoy looking at a female player character and don't need to identify with her.

I also suspect that if we did put forward a female iconic character (a la Aribeth) the response could easily be that we made her too sexy. A bit of "damned if you do, damned if you don't", perhaps. Hard to say, but we're going to always have to pick one, and the idea is to be eye-catching and sexy-- as opposed to politically correct. I'm no marketing guy, but that seems to be pretty much a given.

That said, I hope you enjoy the character and the game for what it is, rather than dwelling on what you perceive it might have been. You do get to play a female character, and as always we make plenty of options to accomodate female players in the game.

Hope that helps. Cheers!

And I understand what you are saying.

Just don't limit all of your PR marketing materials to advertising the MALE Hawke.

I say this not because you'd be hurting the feelings of a lot of female fans of yours, but rather because you are REALLY REALLY missing out on the potential of female customers.

There are a lot of ladies out there who play video games casually that aren't familiar with Dragon Age or that you can even change the gender of the lead character. That is a huge deal. You have to look at it from the female perspective - where a majority of games out there are advertised with the male gaze.

Heck, I'm looking at the official site right now, and there are no screen captures of Female Hawke at all. Maybe if you put her picture up, showed some video, clips, anything of her on the official website without having people DIG for this information, Bioware could potentially tap into a market most videogame companies completely ignore.

I'm just sayin'. Do what you do to get money. It won't turn off male fans, but it'll certainly bring in more women - new gamers - onto your table.

[Liablecocksman]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
I'm just sayin'. Do what you do to get money. It won't turn off male fans, but it'll certainly bring in more women - new gamers - onto your table.

While I agree that female Hawke could/should be more present on the website, I'm not going to argue that she needs appear much more in the marketing.
I mean, she would, in an ideal world, but Bioware has to look at the bottom line.

"Do we lose more male customers than we gain female customers, if we feature female Hawke on the boxart?" is the question. Bioware thought "Yes", and I think they may be right.
I can only speak from my own point of view, but I am personally not drawn to boxart with female (main) characters on them. It probably sounds sexist, but it's basically what you're saying too. It's a matter of preference.

That is why the above quote doesn't make sense. You're saying you're turned off by the "I'm a man, awesome flex pecs, I get sexy ladies, woo", but then say that signalling the opposite, and catering to the ladies, will not lose male fans.
That's extremely silly, and very contradictory.

You're saying yourself, that there are more male than females who play Dragon Age. It would be a bold, potentially ultimately risking losing a bunch of money, move to start catering to a crowd that is in the minority.

In all fairness, it would probably be quite stupid to do so, in fact.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 19 décembre 2010 - 02:07 .

[adembroski11]

David Gaider wrote...

Stexns wrote...
BioWare should be able to fit the story quite nicely for both possibilities.

A TOGGLE! THE ULTIMATE SOLUTION TO ALL DESIGN ISSUES!

The duct tape of video game design. Call Ian Cummings at Tiburon, ask about "customization is king".

[HolyJellyfish]

Liable****sman wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...
I'm just sayin'. Do what you do to get money. It won't turn off male fans, but it'll certainly bring in more women - new gamers - onto your table.

While I agree that female Hawke could/should be more present on the website, I'm not going to argue that she needs appear much more in the marketing.
I mean, she would, in an ideal world, but Bioware has to look at the bottom line.

"Do we lose more male customers than we gain female customers, if we feature female Hawke on the boxart?" is the question. Bioware thought "Yes", and I think they may be right.
I can only speak from my own point of view, but I am personally not drawn to boxart with female (main) characters on them. It probably sounds sexist, but it's basically what you're saying too. It's a matter of preference.

That is why the above quote doesn't make sense. You're saying you're turned off by the "I'm a man, awesome flex pecs, I get sexy ladies, woo", but then say that signalling the opposite, and catering to the ladies, will not lose male fans.
That's extremely silly, and very contradictory.

You're saying yourself, that there are more male than females who play Dragon Age. It would be a bold, potentially ultimately risking losing a bunch of money, move to start catering to a crowd that is in the minority.

In all fairness, it would probably be quite stupid to do so, in fact.

Woah dude, you are pulling what I'm saying out of perspective.

I'm suggesting in the marketting materials, such as magazine advertisements, screen captures, streaming video, etc - that there is no real harm done showcasing a little bit of Lady Hawke.

"CHOSE YOUR DESTINY!" seems to come to mind. Line up of a variety of women + men custom designed Hawkes, spread on a page, emphasizing this point of customizing the story to meet your desires and needs.


What I'm saying is that the way the Public Relations materials are (as is) is kind of blindsiding Bioware from tapping into a market that gaming companies typically forget exists (FEMALE GAMERS) and therefore Gettin' a LOT of money.

ALSO! Never did I suggest that there are more male gamers than females. Not at all. In fact, numbers and polls suggests that about 40% of customers are female. However, how many of those women are playing Bioware games? And if they aren't playing them (if they are in the minority), I would blame PR, not necessarily the tastes of the female market.

I am a Business Major, Advertising, & Graphic Designer. From my point of view, with the treasure chest of gold that Bioware has, tapping into that female market using advertisement that targets their interests means more money. Period.

And any good company wants more money.

So, this time, try reading what I'm saying instead of jumping to conclusions.

In short ::

Keep current PR materials (Male Hawke, etc)
- Start reinvestigating and pumping in Female Hawke as well. She doesn't have to play as large a role, but her presence in the story on a commercial level will cause women who have money and like to play games and make up 40% of gamers (Look it up. Its true) will suddenly gain some interest
- Put some screenshots of Female Hawke for goodness sakes on the Official Site. Unless you are a FAN of the games, you wouldn't know she existed. Therefore, you are cutting out an audience that again - has money and is willing to buy your game.

The whole 'Boys won't play a game featuring girls!' and 'Girls will always play games regardless if it features boys or girls!' is sort of trite bull crap. Its not true in this market. Perhaps for movies and shows, but not for videogames. Not unless you advertise correctly.

[Liablecocksman]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
Keep current PR materials (Male Hawke, etc)
- Start reinvestigating and pumping in Female Hawke as well. She doesn't have to play as large a role, but her presence in the story on a commercial level will cause women who have money and like to play games and make up 40% of gamers (Look it up. Its true) will suddenly gain some interest

I don't care about the overall market.
Maria Caliban has mentioned in several threads that the male human noble origin made up more than all of the other origins put together, in percentage of playthroughs. While I have no source to link you, I think it's much more realistic than 100% of all female gamers actually playing Bioware role-playing games.
While I appreciate that there are female gamers, and I think these should be tended to in terms of advertisement - it just doesn't make sense to do so. In an ideal world, as I've stated, sure! But Bioware has to look at the numbers.

- Put some screenshots of Female Hawke for goodness sakes on the Official Site. Unless you are a FAN of the games, you wouldn't know she existed. Therefore, you are cutting out an audience that again - has money and is willing to buy your game.

I agree completely!
Female Hawke should certainly feature more on the website.

The whole 'Boys won't play a game featuring girls!' and 'Girls will always play games regardless if it features boys or girls!' is sort of trite bull crap. Its not true in this market. Perhaps for movies and shows, but not for videogames. Not unless you advertise correctly.

Ehh...
"Boys won't play a game featuring girls"(I.e. they don't care) is trite bullcrap, but "Girls will play games regardless of what gender it features"(I.e. they care) is also trite bullcrap?
So you're saying boys have no preference, but girls have?
What sort of backwards, contradictory logic is that?

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 19 décembre 2010 - 02:39 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Oh! And BTW, Here are some websites and information that might be of interest and supports this argument.

40% of gamers are female
If that is the case... Why aren't they playing more bioware games? I'm going to take a gander and guess that a lot of women gamers really don't know about how you can customize the gender. I say this because even I didn't know you could customize the gender, until I saw a fanmade trailer featuring Female Shepard from Mass Effect 2. That, to me, is bad marketting if you can't even throw up some screen shots, advertise this customizability, anything.
Unless you know the games and are a big fan, you really don't know that this is valid option.
That is blindsiding. Bioware is missing out on a lot of customers for that reason, be they female.

So again - 40% of gamers are ladies, and if Bioware did a little bit of Female Hawke marketting, not changing their entire image, just a few magazine clips here and there. Hell, some streaming video on their website. Images, anything showing a little bit of Female Hawke on their website, it could draw attention. A lot of attention.

Dangers of using Stereotypes in Advertising in Marketing
For example, stereotype marketing ideologies might focus too much on one group and ignore another equally, or even more important. For example, target only kids for (non-PC) video games and lose access to millions of customers. Nearly a quarter of all video games are purchased by consumers aged 40 and older, and 38% of all video game sales are made by women.


What Women Want in Video Games
"Men are way more vocal about their video game playing than women are. Since it's more accepted for them to be into this form of entertainment, they can feel free to talk about it to whomever they like! Some women, on the other hand, feel like they can't discuss it as openly because they will be looked down upon for not being girly enough."

My point with this citation is that - generally, because of horrible social norms - a lot of women who are gamers feel ashamed of talking about it. There's not that level of word-of-mouth that you get in other avenues. Hence, why a magazine spread or some more website materials covering Female Hawke could be really really important if you want to catch that market.

Bioware will do more harm completely ignoring and neglecting an untapped resource of money (Lady Gamers who don't even know about the product) if they keep focusing all of their PR, all of the materials just on Male Hawke.

There needs to be some acknowledgement beyond the fans, some screen captures on the site itself. Streaming video, anything that acknowledges that the Male Hawke isn't official, just a default image behind a hero whose gender and personality can be completely changed depending on the player's tastes.


So, as I was saying. Female Lady Market (A good chunk of the gaming population) = Almost always ignored by most video game companies
Bioware = Decides not to ignore Female Lady Market, more materials on website (at the very least), perhaps pushing this concept towards magazines, maybe posters. Smaller numbers, but even small numbers make a big visual difference compared to common Male-Featured games.
Female Lady Market suddenly very interested in Bioware, since they one of only a handful of videogame companies that is advertising to women, and probably the only one that doesn't feature pink on its cover or fitness programs.
March 8th - Female Lady Market is happy to give Bioware Money.

It kind of works out.

So yeah. Lady Hawke PR material would really expand the fanbase. And Bioware's wallets.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:07 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Liable****sman wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...
Keep current PR materials (Male Hawke, etc)
- Start reinvestigating and pumping in Female Hawke as well. She doesn't have to play as large a role, but her presence in the story on a commercial level will cause women who have money and like to play games and make up 40% of gamers (Look it up. Its true) will suddenly gain some interest

I don't care about the overall market.
Maria Caliban has mentioned in several threads that the male human noble origin made up more than all of the other origins put together, in percentage of playthroughs. While I have no source to link you, I think it's much more realistic than 100% of all female gamers actually playing Bioware role-playing games.
While I appreciate that there are female gamers, and I think these should be tended to in terms of advertisement - it just doesn't make sense to do so. In an ideal world, as I've stated, sure! But Bioware has to look at the numbers.

- Put some screenshots of Female Hawke for goodness sakes on the Official Site. Unless you are a FAN of the games, you wouldn't know she existed. Therefore, you are cutting out an audience that again - has money and is willing to buy your game.

I agree completely!
Female Hawke should certainly feature more on the website.

The whole 'Boys won't play a game featuring girls!' and 'Girls will always play games regardless if it features boys or girls!' is sort of trite bull crap. Its not true in this market. Perhaps for movies and shows, but not for videogames. Not unless you advertise correctly.

Ehh...
"Boys won't play a game featuring girls"(I.e. they don't care) is trite bullcrap, but "Girls will play games regardless of what gender it features"(I.e. they care) is also trite bullcrap?
So you're saying boys have no preference, but girls have?
What sort of backwards, contradictory logic is that?

I'm not being backwards or biased. I'm saying that  Advertisement frequently is.

I'm saying BOTH quotes are trite bull crap. Tell me where I'm not in that argument. I don't ever use double standards. I know better.

I'm pretty sure we are both in agreement here, I'm trying to figure out what the argument is...

I do this for a living, so I'm familiar with advertising. And Videogames really suffer when it comes to ignoring a huge untapped market.

[Liablecocksman]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Liable****sman wrote...
"Boys won't play a game featuring girls"(I.e. they don't care) is trite bullcrap, but "Girls will play games regardless of what gender it features"(I.e. they care) is also trite bullcrap?

I'm saying BOTH quotes are trite bull crap. Tell me where I'm not in that argument. I don't ever use double standards. I know better.

I'm pretty sure we are both in agreement here, I'm trying to figure out what the argument is...

That's the problem, you're saying that BOTH quotes are trite bullcrap.
Look at them.
In one you say it's bullcrap that males won't play games featuring females, in the other you're saying it's bullcrap that females play games featuring males.
It's massively contradictory.

You can't say one sex has preference on their main character, and the other one doesn't.

But what the argument is? That you want more female Hawke in advertisment. I'm saying there's a good chance it's not a viable strategy, since there is a chance of turning more (male) gamers away, than they stand to gain by adopting such an approach.

20%* in difference is a lot (you're saying the market is divided 60/40 in terms of male/female), and if they assume their own games already appeal predominently to males they may make an assumption that their potential market is (this is pure speculation) 70/30, or 80/20 in terms of male/female.
Why, in that case, would they risk upsetting their large majority, when the only reward is appeasing the much smaller minority?

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[nightcobra]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Liable****sman wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...
Keep current PR materials (Male Hawke, etc)
- Start reinvestigating and pumping in Female Hawke as well. She doesn't have to play as large a role, but her presence in the story on a commercial level will cause women who have money and like to play games and make up 40% of gamers (Look it up. Its true) will suddenly gain some interest

I don't care about the overall market.
Maria Caliban has mentioned in several threads that the male human noble origin made up more than all of the other origins put together, in percentage of playthroughs. While I have no source to link you, I think it's much more realistic than 100% of all female gamers actually playing Bioware role-playing games.
While I appreciate that there are female gamers, and I think these should be tended to in terms of advertisement - it just doesn't make sense to do so. In an ideal world, as I've stated, sure! But Bioware has to look at the numbers.

- Put some screenshots of Female Hawke for goodness sakes on the Official Site. Unless you are a FAN of the games, you wouldn't know she existed. Therefore, you are cutting out an audience that again - has money and is willing to buy your game.

I agree completely!
Female Hawke should certainly feature more on the website.

The whole 'Boys won't play a game featuring girls!' and 'Girls will always play games regardless if it features boys or girls!' is sort of trite bull crap. Its not true in this market. Perhaps for movies and shows, but not for videogames. Not unless you advertise correctly.

Ehh...
"Boys won't play a game featuring girls"(I.e. they don't care) is trite bullcrap, but "Girls will play games regardless of what gender it features"(I.e. they care) is also trite bullcrap?
So you're saying boys have no preference, but girls have?
What sort of backwards, contradictory logic is that?

I'm not being backwards or biased. I'm saying that  Advertisement frequently is.

I'm saying BOTH quotes are trite bull crap. Tell me where I'm not in that argument. I don't ever use double standards. I know better.

I'm pretty sure we are both in agreement here, I'm trying to figure out what the argument is...

I do this for a living, so I'm familiar with advertising. And Videogames really suffer when it comes to ignoring a huge untapped market.

you might like this idea for a trailer then.
i had the idea about 3 or 4 months ago but what the heck:innocent:

http://social.biowar...index/4687994/1

[HolyJellyfish]

Liable****sman wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Liable****sman wrote...
"Boys won't play a game featuring girls"(I.e. they don't care) is trite bullcrap, but "Girls will play games regardless of what gender it features"(I.e. they care) is also trite bullcrap?

I'm saying BOTH quotes are trite bull crap. Tell me where I'm not in that argument. I don't ever use double standards. I know better.

I'm pretty sure we are both in agreement here, I'm trying to figure out what the argument is...

That's the problem, you're saying that BOTH quotes are trite bullcrap.
Look at them.
In one you say it's bullcrap that males won't play games featuring females, in the other you're saying it's bullcrap that females play games featuring males.
It's massively contradictory.

You can't say one sex has preference on their main character, and the other one doesn't.

But what the argument is? That you want more female Hawke in advertisment. I'm saying there's a good chance it's not a viable strategy, since there is a chance of turning more (male) gamers away, than they stand to gain by adopting such an approach.

10% in difference is a lot (you're saying the market is divided 60/40 in terms of male/female), and if they assume their own games already appeal predominently to males they may make an assumption that their potential market is (this is pure speculation) 70/30, or 80/20 in terms of male/female.
Why, in that case, would they risk upsetting their large majority, when the only reward is appeasing the much smaller minority?

Are you a business major? Because what you are saying makes no sense. Not when it comes to selling a product. Not in this economy. Because the economy ain't good.

More female hawke in advertisement. Doesn't need to outweigh male hawke. But enough so that it definitely gets attention from women who play videogames. And how would this turn off the MALE gamers away? I'm going to take a quick shot in the dark and guess... it won't. Why? Because there is enough advertisement out there already featuring male hawke, and enough energy and excitement from the male fanbase that having a snippet of female hawke won't turn them off.

Ask yourself this - If for every five posters featuring male hawke, there was a female hawke poster, would you suddenly feel discouraged to buy the game? Would ANYONE feel discouraged? Or... would it actually encourage a completely new audience to shell out the money and buy a game that originally wasn't advertised as serving the interests of both guys and gals?

Just... answer that. Because I'm pretty sure the male market won't be lost, not even 10%, and you'll get more ladies buying the game.



As for the argument about Male playing Female lead games and the other way around, what I meant is it is stereotypical crap that advertisers constantly tell themselves exist, and in the case of Dragon Age... It shouldn't exist.

Especially since the game itself is preeeettty gender friendly. It tells neither a male centric story or a female centric one. Especially since a good chunk of the writers? Are women.

[In Exile]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Oh! And BTW, Here are some websites and information that might be of interest and supports this argument.

40% of gamers are female
If that is the case... Why aren't they playing more bioware games? I'm going to take a gander and guess that a lot of women gamers really don't know about how you can customize the gender.

I can't stand it when people cite misleading statistics.

The reason is that 40% of gamers who are female do not play all games. You have to look at the actual distribution of gamers to games.

For one, 43% of games sold are rated E. Role-playing games make up 7.6% of market share based on units sold. That's half ''Family Entertainment'' or ''Sports''.

On the computer RPGs jump to 18.8% of the marketshare (of the PC only) but then that requires us to know what percentage of females buy computer games, and we don't have that data.

Here's an example - 44% of female gamers play online games. Makes you think MMOs or CoD would be filled with women, no? Well, that's a poor inference. 61% of online games are either puzzle/trivia games, or downloadable games like Bejeweled or whatever ''Dinner Dash'' is.

Bioware will do more harm completely ignoring and neglecting an untapped resource of money (Lady Gamers who don't even know about the product) if they keep focusing all of their PR, all of the materials just on Male Hawke.

As of right now, it's entirely unclear how much of the female market plays RPGs, or would be interested in and follow their development.

That's not to say that there ought to be no marketing to female gamers. Don't get me wrong. But there needs to be a recognition of the fact that statistically speaking, we don't know what the gender distribution is in RPGs, and that's the figure that matters for Bioware.

If it's something like 80% - 20%, then by and large it might be that marketing is not cost justified.

[HolyJellyfish]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

you might like this idea for a trailer then.
i had the idea about 3 or 4 months ago but what the heck:innocent:

http://social.biowar...index/4687994/1

I think that's a fabulous idea, that exposes the richness of DA2's story while not blindsided an audience based on their gender.

I can understand right now the only reason why DA2 would not be inclined to change their marketing visuals drastically is because its too familiar now, they've been really building themselves up to surround the game with this image of male, blood stained Hawke - Hero of Thedas.

But, at this point in their campaign, it wouldn't hurt to start feeding in and displaying some images of the Female alternative via website, or even some posters. Not completely changing what they are going for, but definitely making it more open ended than Mass Effect's aggressive campaigns.

[In Exile]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
More female hawke in advertisement. Doesn't need to outweigh male hawke. But enough so that it definitely gets attention from women who play videogames. And how would this turn off the MALE gamers away? I'm going to take a quick shot in the dark and guess... it won't. Why? Because there is enough advertisement out there already featuring male hawke, and enough energy and excitement from the male fanbase that having a snippet of female hawke won't turn them off.

What makes you think men will see the male Hawke advertisement? What makes you think women will see the female Hawke advertisement?

If they see the opposite gender and are turned off, they won't go around scouring for proof they can play the other gender. You said it yourself - you took one look at the marketing for Mass Effect, said ''Macho BS'' and that was it, despite the fact information on picking your gender was available.

Ask yourself this - If for every five posters featuring male hawke, there was a female hawke poster, would you suddenly feel discouraged to buy the game? Would ANYONE feel discouraged? Or... would it actually encourage a completely new audience to shell out the money and buy a game that originally wasn't advertised as serving the interests of both guys and gals?

Like I said: I agree with you that females should be marketed to. The problem is how. If the gender thing turns players off - you have to include gender switching in each video to make sure that you won't lose gamers who happen to think Hawke is a man only or female only. It's just an issue of trailers and statistical distribution.

The next problem is impression management. You can't create your trailers in such a way that people think there are two protagonists in the game - they have to understand that you can create your protagonist.

Which means that all your trailers have to be ''create-your-own-character'' focused.

What your glossing over is the logistical problem of it.

Just... answer that. Because I'm pretty sure the male market won't be lost, not even 10%, and you'll get more ladies buying the game.

So are you saying we're only losing 10% of all available female gamers now? Because otherwise you're arguing that male gamers wouldn't be turned away by the impression there an only be a female PC as much as women are by the fact there can only be a male PC.

[ErichHartmann]

Giving Marian Hawke more exposure on the website through desktop backgrounds and a few screenshots only costs some employee a few hours of his/her time. NOT an unreasonable request. (I don't care about the box art cover at this point).

[HolyJellyfish]

In Exile wrote...

That's not to say that there ought to be no marketing to female gamers. Don't get me wrong. But there needs to be a recognition of the fact that statistically speaking, we don't know what the gender distribution is in RPGs, and that's the figure that matters for Bioware.

If it's something like 80% - 20%, then by and large it might be that marketing is not cost justified.

I'm not suggesting I'm using the stats unwisely. A majority of male players also play puzzle games and iphone games. But the stats still stand, that women are involved in the scene. Its not hard to find them. Play Left 4 Dead. They be all over the place there.

You also have to keep in mind that there are far more female gamers today than there was five years ago, and the marketting community won't catch up to that. They can't wrap their heads around an audience of women that originally didn't exist only a few years ago, more specifically because this generation has been fed videogames since the 80's.

And the problem with Bioware's polls, trying to figure out what character is the most popular, etc, is that they are polling people who already OWN their games. They want people who DON'T have their games, so they can find ways to GET them to buy their games.

20% is still a pretty big number.

I'm not suggesting that Bioware suddenly have special covers featuring Female Hawke or aggressive campaign strategies just for the ladies.

I'm just saying, put some screen captures up on the website. Give a little of video footage. Make a poster or two.

I think that's pretty cost effective, don't you?

[Liablecocksman]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
Are you a business major? Because what you are saying makes no sense. Not when it comes to selling a product. Not in this economy. Because the economy ain't good.

No.

More female hawke in advertisement. Doesn't need to outweigh male hawke. But enough so that it definitely gets attention from women who play videogames. And how would this turn off the MALE gamers away? I'm going to take a quick shot in the dark and guess... it won't. Why? Because there is enough advertisement out there already featuring male hawke, and enough energy and excitement from the male fanbase that having a snippet of female hawke won't turn them off.

We aren't aren't talking about people who already know the game and the franchise, we are talking about newcomers. What is already out there, doesn't matter.
Bioware is actively trying to attract the otherwise less-RPG, more superficially enticed gamers with DA2 ("This is an action-rpg", "press a button, something awesome happens", etc.) and they do this NOT by showing posters of women, because (I dare say) the impulse-driven buyer, along with the majority of the shooter/action-game crowd, is male. Call it stereotyping, I'm not going to object, but unless you find me a source effectively disputing it, I will believe it, still.
Female gamers are no-doubt on the rise, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they don't make up the half of the action/shooter/rpg games at all. I'd say not even 30%, but that is all completely speculation. You don't have exact numbers on genres either. We can only guess. You can bet, though, that Bioware (And EA marketing) has a lot more numbers, poll-results and percentages available to them than we have, when we are talking about Dragon Age: Origin sales.

Ask yourself this - If for every five posters featuring male hawke, there was a female hawke poster, would you suddenly feel discouraged to buy the game? Would ANYONE feel discouraged? Or... would it actually encourage a completely new audience to shell out the money and buy a game that originally wasn't advertised as serving the interests of both guys and gals?

Just... answer that. Because I'm pretty sure the male market won't be lost, not even 10%, and you'll get more ladies buying the game.

Again - while your point is valid, I'm not sure it would be plausible. Yes, if I don't have any knowledge of the game, and I only see one poster, that poster being of a female lead character, I wouldn't buy the game, or be interested. You said it yourself, you weren't interested in Mass Effect in the least, until you (completely by chance) saw that you could play as a woman.
I'll be a little snide here and say it perfectly proves my point. You couldn't have done much research on Mass Effect, if you didn't know you could play as both sexes. In other words, you saw one poster, and was then turned off. I, for instance, looking up the character creation system immediately after having heard about Mass Effect, since such things interest me, and I saw (right away) that I could play as both sexes.

Working with the numbers I created before, however faulty they may be, I still think we could probably divide the Dragon Age male/female percentages into something like 70/30 or 80/20. I'm sure there would be more females in the game, if the marketing had been more focused on catering to them - but I'm also sure that there would have been less males, had that been the case.

Again, my point is, that is basically comes down to risk/reward:
Is it worth risk upsetting 70% of your potential market, on the off-chance that you may increase the other side from 30% to 40%?

As for the argument about Male playing Female lead games and the other way around, what I meant is it is stereotypical crap that advertisers constantly tell themselves exist, and in the case of Dragon Age... It shouldn't exist.

It shouldn't exist, I agree.
But it does. Face it.

Especially since the game itself is preeeettty gender friendly. It tells neither a male centric story or a female centric one. Especially since a good chunk of the writers? Are women.

You're right. The majority of the Dragon Age writer are women.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 19 décembre 2010 - 03:23 .

[HolyJellyfish]

In Exile wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...
More female hawke in advertisement. Doesn't need to outweigh male hawke. But enough so that it definitely gets attention from women who play videogames. And how would this turn off the MALE gamers away? I'm going to take a quick shot in the dark and guess... it won't. Why? Because there is enough advertisement out there already featuring male hawke, and enough energy and excitement from the male fanbase that having a snippet of female hawke won't turn them off.

What makes you think men will see the male Hawke advertisement? What makes you think women will see the female Hawke advertisement?

If they see the opposite gender and are turned off, they won't go around scouring for proof they can play the other gender. You said it yourself - you took one look at the marketing for Mass Effect, said ''Macho BS'' and that was it, despite the fact information on picking your gender was available.

Ask yourself this - If for every five posters featuring male hawke, there was a female hawke poster, would you suddenly feel discouraged to buy the game? Would ANYONE feel discouraged? Or... would it actually encourage a completely new audience to shell out the money and buy a game that originally wasn't advertised as serving the interests of both guys and gals?

Like I said: I agree with you that females should be marketed to. The problem is how. If the gender thing turns players off - you have to include gender switching in each video to make sure that you won't lose gamers who happen to think Hawke is a man only or female only. It's just an issue of trailers and statistical distribution.

The next problem is impression management. You can't create your trailers in such a way that people think there are two protagonists in the game - they have to understand that you can create your protagonist.

Which means that all your trailers have to be ''create-your-own-character'' focused.

What your glossing over is the logistical problem of it.

Just... answer that. Because I'm pretty sure the male market won't be lost, not even 10%, and you'll get more ladies buying the game.

So are you saying we're only losing 10% of all available female gamers now? Because otherwise you're arguing that male gamers wouldn't be turned away by the impression there an only be a female PC as much as women are by the fact there can only be a male PC.

As for Trailers, just create the same gameplay trailer for Women you would Men. You don't have to have the cinema features to make it effective. Shot for shot, same gameplay trailer. I don't think that would cost too much money.

I think the step that should be taken isn't aggressive PR, I know that's not viable now.

I just think the website needs more depth so if female RPG players are in the least interested, it'll answer a lot of questions without giving them the initial impression of 'Oh.. Its a game that only features a male protagonist. Again.'

I'm arguing that there would not be any losses between both women and men if it was a least a little obvious that you can be Male Hawke or Female Hawke. The website doesn't even suggest this. It can't cost that much resource and time to fix this.