4085 réponses à ce sujet

[Grommash94]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If SirOccam at the same time is trying to censorship all other opinions than this thread can be missed as a toothache.

It isn't like he is telling everyone with concerns to get out or something. He just got annoyed that people keep repeating the same things; things that will not change, things that they can do nothing about. They don't need to accept it, but raging about it all the time is not the same as criticizing BioWare with a thoughtful post.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If SirOccam at the same time is trying to censorship all other opinions than this thread can be missed as a toothache.

It isn't like he is telling everyone with concerns to get out or something. He just got annoyed that people keep repeating the same things; things that will not change, things that they can do nothing about. They don't need to accept it, but raging about it all the time is not the same as criticizing BioWare with a thoughtful post.

Critisizing BioWare is what this is about. If people didn't question BioWare moves then there would be no change. What you call rage is something that people feel strongly about. Listen to the podcast. BioWare does want to hear other opinions. Trying to put emotions into other opnions (what you call "raging" or on the ME boards "whining" is a popular variant) is intended to make those opinions appear to be invalid. Next time try to come up with logic.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 juillet 2010 - 01:07 .

[Grommash94]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If SirOccam at the same time is trying to censorship all other opinions than this thread can be missed as a toothache.

It isn't like he is telling everyone with concerns to get out or something. He just got annoyed that people keep repeating the same things; things that will not change, things that they can do nothing about. They don't need to accept it, but raging about it all the time is not the same as criticizing BioWare with a thoughtful post.

Critisizing BioWare is what this is about. If people didn't question BioWare moves then there would be no change. What you call rage is something that people feel strongly about. Listen to the podcast. BioWare does want to hear other opinions. Trying to put emotions into other opnions (what you call "raging" or on the ME boards "whining" is a popular variant) is intended to make those opinions appear to be invalid. Next time try to come up with logic.

But screaming about how BioWare shouldn't have done this, or done this, and that it is such a bad move, I am not buying your game, how could you, is not constructive criticism, which is something even Dr. Zeschuck  (one of their founders) says in an interview.  Constructive criticism is where you state your concerns, back them up, and rationally explain why BioWare should listen to you. Also, instead of cheap insults, like calling the OP a 'troll', even though that makes no sense, or 'Next time try to come up with logic.', maybe you should voice your own opinions in a way that people can actually respect. Just saying.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If SirOccam at the same time is trying to censorship all other opinions than this thread can be missed as a toothache.

It isn't like he is telling everyone with concerns to get out or something. He just got annoyed that people keep repeating the same things; things that will not change, things that they can do nothing about. They don't need to accept it, but raging about it all the time is not the same as criticizing BioWare with a thoughtful post.

Critisizing BioWare is what this is about. If people didn't question BioWare moves then there would be no change. What you call rage is something that people feel strongly about. Listen to the podcast. BioWare does want to hear other opinions. Trying to put emotions into other opnions (what you call "raging" or on the ME boards "whining" is a popular variant) is intended to make those opinions appear to be invalid. Next time try to come up with logic.

But screaming about how BioWare shouldn't have done this, or done this, and that it is such a bad move, I am not buying your game, how could you, is not constructive criticism, which is something even Dr. Zeschuck  (one of their founders) says in an interview.  Constructive criticism is where you state your concerns, back them up, and rationally explain why BioWare should listen to you. Also, instead of cheap insults, like calling the OP a 'troll', even though that makes no sense, or 'Next time try to come up with logic.', maybe you should voice your own opinions in a way that people can actually respect. Just saying.

"Screaming". Just saying.

[Saibh]

Antares1987 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Antares1987 wrote...

its absolutely stupid as hell that the dark ritual isn't canon.

Justify this, please.

There are many creative opportunities if this were canon; say that Bioware's planning DA3, the god child could be a prophet after the Chantry's power collapses and form a new religion.

Or, you can think about it this way: in a game all about choices, the final, most major choice in the game results ultimately in your death. You sacrifice yourself for the greater good, even though you have the opportunity not to. By making the DR canon, a lot of people would feel as if the game is saying "Sorry, we know you were a good person and altruistic and all, but it doesn't matter! Your choice and sacrifice has no bearing on the story! It's like it never mattered!"

Now, I'm not sure if I feel that way. I could argue right back that DA3 simply never occurs for you if you made the Ultimate Sacrifice. It's not your canon, it's someone elses. But then you feel as if you got gypped. An entire game that isn't yours because this big decision gets made for you.

[Grommash94]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If SirOccam at the same time is trying to censorship all other opinions than this thread can be missed as a toothache.

It isn't like he is telling everyone with concerns to get out or something. He just got annoyed that people keep repeating the same things; things that will not change, things that they can do nothing about. They don't need to accept it, but raging about it all the time is not the same as criticizing BioWare with a thoughtful post.

Critisizing BioWare is what this is about. If people didn't question BioWare moves then there would be no change. What you call rage is something that people feel strongly about. Listen to the podcast. BioWare does want to hear other opinions. Trying to put emotions into other opnions (what you call "raging" or on the ME boards "whining" is a popular variant) is intended to make those opinions appear to be invalid. Next time try to come up with logic.

But screaming about how BioWare shouldn't have done this, or done this, and that it is such a bad move, I am not buying your game, how could you, is not constructive criticism, which is something even Dr. Zeschuck  (one of their founders) says in an interview.  Constructive criticism is where you state your concerns, back them up, and rationally explain why BioWare should listen to you. Also, instead of cheap insults, like calling the OP a 'troll', even though that makes no sense, or 'Next time try to come up with logic.', maybe you should voice your own opinions in a way that people can actually respect. Just saying.

"Screaming". Just saying.

When they are doing just that. Ok. How about, 'emotionally stating' then?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If SirOccam at the same time is trying to censorship all other opinions than this thread can be missed as a toothache.

It isn't like he is telling everyone with concerns to get out or something. He just got annoyed that people keep repeating the same things; things that will not change, things that they can do nothing about. They don't need to accept it, but raging about it all the time is not the same as criticizing BioWare with a thoughtful post.

Critisizing BioWare is what this is about. If people didn't question BioWare moves then there would be no change. What you call rage is something that people feel strongly about. Listen to the podcast. BioWare does want to hear other opinions. Trying to put emotions into other opnions (what you call "raging" or on the ME boards "whining" is a popular variant) is intended to make those opinions appear to be invalid. Next time try to come up with logic.

But screaming about how BioWare shouldn't have done this, or done this, and that it is such a bad move, I am not buying your game, how could you, is not constructive criticism, which is something even Dr. Zeschuck  (one of their founders) says in an interview.  Constructive criticism is where you state your concerns, back them up, and rationally explain why BioWare should listen to you. Also, instead of cheap insults, like calling the OP a 'troll', even though that makes no sense, or 'Next time try to come up with logic.', maybe you should voice your own opinions in a way that people can actually respect. Just saying.

"Screaming". Just saying.

When they are doing just that. Ok. How about, 'emotionally stating' then?

What has emotion got to do with it? I fail to see what strongly stating another opinion has to do with emotion. Bringing up emotion in these type of discussions is intended to make the opinion appear to be invalid. That's a strategy we can do without.

[Grommash94]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If SirOccam at the same time is trying to censorship all other opinions than this thread can be missed as a toothache.

It isn't like he is telling everyone with concerns to get out or something. He just got annoyed that people keep repeating the same things; things that will not change, things that they can do nothing about. They don't need to accept it, but raging about it all the time is not the same as criticizing BioWare with a thoughtful post.

Critisizing BioWare is what this is about. If people didn't question BioWare moves then there would be no change. What you call rage is something that people feel strongly about. Listen to the podcast. BioWare does want to hear other opinions. Trying to put emotions into other opnions (what you call "raging" or on the ME boards "whining" is a popular variant) is intended to make those opinions appear to be invalid. Next time try to come up with logic.

But screaming about how BioWare shouldn't have done this, or done this, and that it is such a bad move, I am not buying your game, how could you, is not constructive criticism, which is something even Dr. Zeschuck  (one of their founders) says in an interview.  Constructive criticism is where you state your concerns, back them up, and rationally explain why BioWare should listen to you. Also, instead of cheap insults, like calling the OP a 'troll', even though that makes no sense, or 'Next time try to come up with logic.', maybe you should voice your own opinions in a way that people can actually respect. Just saying.

"Screaming". Just saying.

When they are doing just that. Ok. How about, 'emotionally stating' then?

What has emotion got to do with it? I fail to see what strongly stating another opinion has to do with emotion. Bringing up emotion in these type of discussions is intended to make the opinion appear to be invalid. That's a strategy we can do without.

Q: You've said that you need to take on feedback. In the case of Dragon
Age 2, you recently released some new screens and they were met with
quite a lot of criticism - but it wasn't exactly constructive, it was
more, "Urgh! I don't like that!"



GZ: [laughs]



Q: What's your reaction to that?



GZ:
What you don't listen to is the loud internet commentary. The loudest
voice is probably not the one you listen to. You listen to the person
who put a lot of thought into it, who went out of their way to provide
feedback. We're starting public testing for Star Wars: The Old Republic,
and the fans are encouraged to write up their perspectives in the
private forums. You're not allowed to break NDAs (non-disclosure
agreements) - if they want to talk, they can talk all the want in their
official, appropriate area. It's interesting to read, and the incites of
the fans are valuable. I think there's a sort of thuggish mentality of
the crowd on the internet, with people jumping on board. I think it
would be very rare that you would find valuable things in the comments
section of anything. Occasionally there's stuff, but we're not swayed by
it. You can really be reactive to that. We tend to be very analytic, we
put it down and move it around until we actually understand it. But I
think one of the ways we make great games is by being really, really
open to criticism.

GZ is Greg Zeschuk, one of the founders of BioWare. When I said 'screaming' the 'Urgh, I don't like that!" opinions, are the ones I was talking about. Seeing as they don't listen to those 'Urgh' guys, and nothing is going to change if those 'Urgh' guys don't present their opinions constructively, then what is the point, at all? 

[Saibh]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

What has emotion got to do with it? I fail to see what strongly stating another opinion has to do with emotion. Bringing up emotion in these type of discussions is intended to make the opinion appear to be invalid. That's a strategy we can do without.

Does it matter? You got your point across, you didn't like how SirOccam phrased his irritation. I imagine you don't see too many of his posts around here, but a troll he is not. Forgive and forget.

Modifié par Saibh, 30 juillet 2010 - 01:29 .

[langelog]

That's a nice quote pyramid up there.

[SirOccam]

Damn right it wasn't kind, nor polite. It wasn't meant to be.

Look, I'll just say this. I had no illusions from the beginning that the thread would only be people posting verified facts that could then be added to the list. I am 100% totally fine with people speculating, postulating, commenting, or yeah, even complaining a bit. I've even said this before, when others have suggested that none of that should be happening. I have no desire to censor anyone, least of all myself (in fact there's a rather lengthy rant by yours truly in another thread about how ridiculous it is that ANY word is considered "bad"). I don't even want to censor Kordaris.

I guess if I wanted to draw a line anywhere, it would be at lamenting. Don't like how the new Qunari look? Tell us about it. Have concerns with the narrative approach, or maybe some ideas you want to share, or, who knows, maybe an actual fact with a source for inclusion into the list? Come, elucidate. But if you just want to shake your fist at the heavens and scream "WHYYYYYYYY?!?!?!" then please do it elsewhere.

Hawke's name, race, and role as protagonist were literally the FIRST things we learned about the game. You play a Human named Hawke. That's just how it is. They're not going to suddenly scrap and redesign the game from its foundation. It is done, it is set in stone. For the sake of your (and our) mental health...learn how to cope.

There are plenty of things yet to be announced, or announced only in a very early form, that would be infinitely more fruitful to discuss.

[AngryFrozenWater]

SirOccam wrote...

Damn right it wasn't kind, nor polite. It wasn't meant to be.

I thought so. In that case I hope this thread will be unstickied (is that a word?).

[langelog]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Damn right it wasn't kind, nor polite. It wasn't meant to be.

I thought so. In that case I hope this thread will be unstickied (is that a word?).

It has been unstickied several times before, but javi keeps resticking it and with good reason.

[SirOccam]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Damn right it wasn't kind, nor polite. It wasn't meant to be.

I thought so. In that case I hope this thread will be unstickied (is that a word?).

I'm sure it will be...wouldn't be the first time.

However, I'm wondering why 1) it's so important to you that no thread with an unkind post be stickied, and 2) why losing its stickiness is supposed to be some kind of personal affront to me. I never specifically asked for it to be stickied in the first place. People can bookmark it if they like it.

If it bothers you so much, feel free to avoid clicking on it. That way you won't have to read all the mean words. By all means...the rest of the forum is full of nothing but the most pleasant and polite discourse.

[langelog]

Antares1987 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Antares1987 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Antares1987 wrote...

its absolutely stupid as hell that the dark ritual isn't canon.

Justify this, please.

There are many creative opportunities if this were canon; say that Bioware's planning DA3, the god child could be a prophet after the Chantry's power collapses and form a new religion.

Or, you can think about it this way: in a game all about choices, the final, most major choice in the game results ultimately in your death. You sacrifice yourself for the greater good, even though you have the opportunity not to. By making the DR canon, a lot of people would feel as if the game is saying "Sorry, we know you were a good person and altruistic and all, but it doesn't matter! Your choice and sacrifice has no bearing on the story! It's like it never mattered!"

Now, I'm not sure if I feel that way. I could argue right back that DA3 simply never occurs for you if you made the Ultimate Sacrifice. It's not your canon, it's someone elses. But then you feel as if you got gypped. An entire game that isn't yours because this big decision gets made for you.

The DR canon shows more progress in the world of DA and doing so would save the lives of many wardens. This option is more pragmatic and in doing the opposite would say " Sorry, I think its best to get myself killed than having to save many others who never had a choice in the matter."

Or you could see Morrigan's child as a demonic spawn with the soul of an old god and likley have access to great power. It's all a matter of opinion, that child could raise up hell itself and spread a plague of doom across Thedas, or as you say, you could save a great number of people who never had the option of a DR.

[SirOccam]

Antares1987 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Antares1987 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Antares1987 wrote...

its absolutely stupid as hell that the dark ritual isn't canon.

Justify this, please.

There are many creative opportunities if this were canon; say that Bioware's planning DA3, the god child could be a prophet after the Chantry's power collapses and form a new religion.

Or, you can think about it this way: in a game all about choices, the final, most major choice in the game results ultimately in your death. You sacrifice yourself for the greater good, even though you have the opportunity not to. By making the DR canon, a lot of people would feel as if the game is saying "Sorry, we know you were a good person and altruistic and all, but it doesn't matter! Your choice and sacrifice has no bearing on the story! It's like it never mattered!"

Now, I'm not sure if I feel that way. I could argue right back that DA3 simply never occurs for you if you made the Ultimate Sacrifice. It's not your canon, it's someone elses. But then you feel as if you got gypped. An entire game that isn't yours because this big decision gets made for you.

The DR canon shows more progress in the world of DA and doing so would save the lives of many wardens. This option is more pragmatic and in doing the opposite would say " Sorry, I think its best to get myself killed than having to save many others who never had a choice in the matter."

I don't think it's necessary for the DR to be canon in order for them to follow up on it. They haven't made any other ending canon either, after all. Morrigan heads west to Orlais no matter what...surely that's enough of a common thread upon which to build another game or expansion. As for how they can manage the optional existence of a baby or God Baby...well I'll leave that up to Gaider and co. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

[AngryFrozenWater]

langelog wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Damn right it wasn't kind, nor polite. It wasn't meant to be.

I thought so. In that case I hope this thread will be unstickied (is that a word?).

It has been unstickied several times before, but javi keeps resticking it and with good reason.

Interesting. Thanks. The only good reason I see is the original post. The attacks after that don't belong here.

[Saibh]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

langelog wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Damn right it wasn't kind, nor polite. It wasn't meant to be.

I thought so. In that case I hope this thread will be unstickied (is that a word?).

It has been unstickied several times before, but javi keeps resticking it and with good reason.

Interesting. Thanks. The only good reason I see is the original post. The attacks after that don't belong here.

Third time's the charm:

Stickied threads are not there because they are shining examples of forumites. They are there for information. This is the most informative thread. There's no reason to unsticky a thread for "punishment".

[Saibh]

Antares1987 wrote...

It all depends; if the god is a protaganist in the next DA then your choices will determine whether he's a hellspawn or savior.

Regardless, why undermine and belittle player choices by making something canon? If you didn't want to do the DR, you'd understand.

Again, we don't know what direction they're going for in the games, so it's pointless to say not making it canon is "stupid".

[AngryFrozenWater]

Saibh wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

langelog wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Damn right it wasn't kind, nor polite. It wasn't meant to be.

I thought so. In that case I hope this thread will be unstickied (is that a word?).

It has been unstickied several times before, but javi keeps resticking it and with good reason.

Interesting. Thanks. The only good reason I see is the original post. The attacks after that don't belong here.

Third time's the charm:

Stickied threads are not there because they are shining examples of forumites. They are there for information. This is the most informative thread. There's no reason to unsticky a thread for "punishment".

It has nothing to do with punishment. If BioWare wants to hear what people think about their games then ridicule or belittle other opinions doesn't provide them a service.

Edit: I've said all I can about the subject from more angles than I intended. I going back playing the game. Have a nice day.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 30 juillet 2010 - 02:46 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Antares1987 wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Antares1987 wrote...

its absolutely stupid as hell that the dark ritual isn't canon.

Justify this, please.

There are many creative opportunities if this were canon; say that Bioware's planning DA3, the god child could be a prophet after the Chantry's power collapses and form a new religion.

While it does indeed make things hard, I would greatly await seeing how they execute such an obviously big plot point into the optional realm.