78 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaenan]

Please let's drop the "most of us" lines, if "most of us" want to give their opinion on the matter they'll do it for themselves. Don't drag the silent majority on your side of the argument.

Proleric1 wrote...
The one thing that is not acceptable is having to ask for permission. This is a hobby, a voluntary association open to all without discrimination, not a master-slave relationship.

And why exactly asking for permission isn't acceptable ? If one wishes you to ask him permission before you're benefiting from his work, that's his right. His work, his choice. Actually, if a modder spend douzens or hundreds of hours working on a project, it's only fair to ask for permission before doing anything whether he demands it or not. If you think a project ain't worth a ten lines message, just don't use it. Simple.

I, for one, always ask permission whenever I want to integrate other's changes in my mods. In return, I'm with Teronas92 on this one when he says he wants people to ask permission to use his work, since I do the same. That's plain courtesy and simply a way of showing respect & appreciation, how's that "unacceptable"... Note the rhetorical question.

Modifié par Phaenan, 28 juillet 2010 - 10:47 .

[Proleric]

I don't think we'll get anywhere by going over the same old tired arguments.

We have completely different values. You reject the values of the open community, I reject the values of the private ownership lobby.

The question is, how can we co-exist peacefully?

I would suggest that it has to start from some sort of mutual recognition.

Will you not respect the fact that some of us, who contribute whatever our poor talents allow to this community, will never, under any circumstances, work with people who won't share freely?

[Hel]

Proleric1 wrote...

Will you not respect the fact that some of us, who contribute whatever our poor talents allow to this community, will never, under any circumstances, work with people who won't share freely?

If that is the case, I wouldn't go around calling it an open community either, because you're essentially advocating a "my way or the highway" mentality. And please don't see this observation as a flame, thanks!

Now seeing as this is Teronas92's topic, I suggest we drop this discussion. I don't mind openly talking about authorship and controlling one's content, but let's stop dragging this subject into everyone else's topics all the time. I'm sure we can start a mature discussion about this subject elsewhere, no?

I put on my uniform and police hat...

Modifié par Helekanalaith, 28 juillet 2010 - 11:31 .

[Proleric]

To be clear, I'm advocating that you do your thing and that I do mine.

I guess most people understand that open communities are closed to people who don't respect them.

I promise faithfully never to touch any of your work, provided you label it clearly up front as subject to permission.

That's the only reason the subject has come up in this thread.

Perhaps we can let it drop there.

[CID-78]

when it comes to asking for permission, I seperate community works into two groups, modules and resources.



I shouldn't need to ask for permission for using resources, if you post it in public it should be open for anyone in the community to use. I would only need to ask for permission if I intend to modify it.



if it's a module i would need the permission to dissect and use content inside. (however i wouldn't bother asking for permission if I just want to see how you did a thing but doesn't intend to use your resources.) neither would i need to ask permission to play it.

[RandomInquisitor]

well since this is a module I dont really see your point , my mod isnt a resource , its a full module of its own , it adds our set to bodahn's store , a resource in my eyes , is something that you release (unfinished or not ingame yet) for the mod community to use for , perhaps , making the mod where the resource was designed for.

Im willing to share my mod and resources but all I want is that you ask me first , I completely agree with phaenan on that , I support the idea of an open community , but isnt it just being polite to ask if you can use something I made into YOUR mod ?



If this disappoints you , im sorry , but I think im not asking to much ...

[JasonNH]

Helekanalaith wrote...
If that is the case, I wouldn't go around calling it an open community either, because you're essentially advocating a "my way or the highway" mentality. And please don't see this observation as a flame, thanks!

I have to agree. I was surprised to find out yesterday that anyone who had not explicitly opted out (and was there ever even an opportunity?) of the Open House project had their material included automatically. My idea of an Open House is making your home openly available to the public, not others peoples without their consent. Seems more like "Open Season" to me than Open House.  I think Phaenan is right that it's a matter of courtesy to ask first when distribution and modifcation rights are not explictly given.

It's odd to be taking this stance because I have always made my own content in NWN2 feely available to people for use as is, or with modifications. I expect I would do the same with any of my own individual content in DA. I think it's an honor when someone wants to use it. At the same time, I completely respect those who feel differently and would never assume they have the same perspective or intentions that I do. Quite honestly, I think that is how you get the two groups to live together. Mutual respect, it's not that hard really.

Modifié par JasonNH, 28 juillet 2010 - 01:54 .

[FollowTheGourd]

I've been arguing for an opt-in approach. Anyway, it does make sense to ask if nothing is specified - or if the terms state "seek my permission, and I'll grant it no problem". But then again, what happens if the original author drops out of the scene. Then you're left with some people using it, and the rest can't.

Beyond that, there's probably no point trying to convince anybody or act passive aggressive about it; there's too much ego-waving involved. I'm guilty myself of it at times - probably am right now in this post - but it's just annoying when it becomes more about terms than something productive.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 28 juillet 2010 - 02:23 .

[JasonNH]

FollowTheGourd wrote...
But then again, what happens if the original author drops out of the scene. Then you're left with some people using it, and the rest can't.

I understand, and it's frustrating when that happens. At that point, it's going to have to be a judgment call for each individual modder trying to infer the original author's intent. What I would not do though is try and speak on behalf of that author and advertise it according to what I wish it to be.

[Proleric]

JasonNH wrote...

...I was surprised to find out yesterday that anyone who had not explicitly opted out (and was there ever even an opportunity?) of the Open House project had their material included automatically...

I believe you're referring to the Open House provisional index.

This is work-in-progress which hasn't been released, so anything I say here isn't necessarily final.

We believe in transparency, so what we're doing is visible, but it isn't that concrete yet.

What we are doing is making a very crude categorised index of the projects on BSN, excluding the ones with no files or author restrictions on use.

The primary reason is that we'd like to publish more work on BSN, but without an index it's virtually unusable.

Since the BSN Terms of Service state

If the EA Service on which you contribute Content permits other users to access and use that contributed Content as part of the EA Service, than you also grant all other users of the relevant EA Service the right to use, copy, modify, display, perform, create derivative works from, and otherwise communicate and distribute your contributed Content on or through the relevant EA Service without further notice, attribution or compensation to you.

we have assumed so far that for practical purposes the content is open unless the author states otherwise. This should not be construed as a legal opinion, it's just our working rule of thumb.

We're consulting with authors in certain ambiguous cases, and have drafted a correction process which will give authors better control over the results, but it's early days.

The ulimate ambition is for a much better self-service community index, but that's some way off.

Now, all work-in-progress is subject to issues which the team hasn't necessarily closed off.

One of those issues is that we now know of cases where authors require permission, but haven't actually said so. Since telepathy is not our strong point, we're going to have to figure out an exception process to handle this. Rest assured that it is certainly not our intention to encourage use of material that the author wants to restrict.

Modifié par Proleric1, 28 juillet 2010 - 02:54 .

[Elvhen Veluthil]

Of course the OP has the right to distribute his creations as he like, nothing wrong with that. On the other side, I guess the OP himself is using or has used tools offered to him by the community, without him needing to contact every time the author of those tools to ask permission. And it seems just right not to need to contact them. Adding them to the credits, maybe dropping a thank you at their project's page or a message saying so, these seems just right. These for resources and tools, modifying stand-alone mods is a little bit more complicated and may require the permission/agreement of the author.



And it may be not all that visible, but every community has some individuals that with their efforts keeps things going (I am not one of them btw). Helping in the forums, making tools, adding/creating the wiki, tutorials and such. Now to those eyes, these issues are seen from another perspective. It's not bad to show some passion about these things, actually that's something that's needed more. I intentionally am avoiding any sentimental reaction in this issue, but sharing in good faith is something beneficial for all of us, that's a simple thing someone can learn by observing life.



I will start working on my mod, and I will not use also any resources that needs the permission of the author to use. Believes aside, there is a practical reason for that, and it's not that I am lazy to send a message, or that my ego will get hurt by asking someone's permission, but because if someone can say yes to you today, he can say no to you tomorrow. For whatever reason, people's action can be unpredictable, and I don't want to have to change plans because of that.

[RandomInquisitor]

You have to know that everything I made in this is my own work , ive been taught by my friend about how to model and he did the texturing and rigging ... yes I used a converter made by someone , but thats because he/she ( sorry eshme ) made the mod for general use , its like you download a mod , you play it , and you thank the owner of it ... except for the converter NOTHING is being used of off others work , and if it were , I would have asked for permission to use it.



I know that the fact that some people just stop with modding and leave , and it drops alot of options , but as much as I want to , I cant change that either , there are so many variables for someone to leave ... I can tell you that my time hasnt come yet , but that wont help much either



Again , I see asking for my permission as a polite thing to do , and my answer is guaranteed a yes ( unless im still working on it ) but is it that hard just to send a small message and wait for an answer ? im part of this community , and I share my stuff with the community , I think im not asking to much. but then again , thats my opinion overall.

[Arttis]

So how is the spear coming?

*not trying to rush you or anything*

For the whole thing about permission.

Permission should be asked if you want to distribute or modify and distribute someone elses mod imo.

Simply downloading it for yourself and modifying it for yourself only imo should not require it.

[RandomInquisitor]

I havent picked a next model yet

[Sunjammer]

Proleric1 wrote...
The question is, how can we co-exist peacefully?

It seems to me the only one preventing this is you.

You are the one hijacking threads to shove your partisan propaganda down our throats; you are the one claiming you "don't think we'll get anywhere by going over the same old tired arguments" and yet always the one starting the debate; you are the one bullying anyone who dares to express an opposing opinion on this subject; you are the one using incendiary language like "master and slave relationship" while pretending to apologise for your self-confessed hostilities; you are the one ignoring the full spectrum of opinion and attempting to polarise the community into opposing "open" and "closed" factions; you are the one blatantly disregarding absentee authors' preferences; the one wilfully misrepresenting projects on your "open" index and the one ignoring author's requests to be removed from it.

When a developer is generous to share their content with the community then, regardless of any conditions, they should be applauded and not harassed. If they only feel comfortable sharing with an "ask my permission" clause then so what? No one is forcing you to use that content: if you are missing out on using quality content then you've only yourself to blame. Continuing to berate anyone who doesn't immediately divest themselves of all rights in their creations will only succeed in driving more developers and content away from Social to the detriment of the community.

Modifié par Sunjammer, 28 juillet 2010 - 08:44 .

[Arttis]

The real enemy has been shown!

Well regardless come on people we can always ignore and do what we feel like.

I if I learn the toolset will probably give out mods or unfinished levels for anyone to edit themselves and take full credit for.*I really could not care less*

I just want this community big and booming so better quality mods become available.

[RandomInquisitor]

As do I arttis , but Sunjammer is sooo right atm ...

[Elvhen Veluthil]

Well, in legal terms, the way I understand it at least, everything posted in this site is already in a "share" mode, I can take it and do whatever I want with it without asking your permission or saying thank you, EA Service gives me the right to use, copy, modify, display, perform, create derivative works from, and otherwise communicate and distribute your contributed Content on or through the relevant EA Service without further notice, attribution or compensation to you.

So what is been discussed here is something entirely different, maybe it's about the non-existent and withering community of DAO builders. Maybe some people have something else in their minds, dream about a different community, where sharing and working together is the norm. For example dunniteowl (for those you know him) has done a great great effort to keep NWN2 community strong and lively. You Sunjammer have done a lot of things for this community also, but don't judge other people for their intentions, last time I checked my books, sharing was the best solution when more that one persons were involved.

Modifié par Elvhen Veluthil, 28 juillet 2010 - 10:13 .

[FollowTheGourd]

I don't think there's much to be served by continuing that line in this thread, unless we want to turn up another one like this.

I'd at least suggest starting a new thread to discuss it rationally and without a tie-in to anybody's work to keep emotions from flaring up. If you think it's worth continuing anyway.

I'm not trying to backseat moderate, but just sayin'.

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 28 juillet 2010 - 10:55 .

[RandomInquisitor]

You have the right to use my stuff yes , but nowhere does it say to edit it ... and if you do , just ask me , is it that much to do ?



and yes , perhaps we should stop

[Tarmack]

Lets get back to the topic at hand. Great offer Teronas btw.

[Elvhen Veluthil]

Teronas92 wrote...

You have the right to use my stuff yes , but nowhere does it say to edit it ... and if you do , just ask me , is it that much to do ?

and yes , perhaps we should stop

Sorry to bring this back, but if I was to use/edit your work I would definetely ask for your permission since you are asking for it, I didn't meant that in my previous post, what I wanted to do was to make a point about the nature of this discussion. Sorry again

[RandomInquisitor]

Np , but guys , please ask me to make something in the next post instead of barging on with this , if you want to use my stuff in your mod , you ask me , enough about it , lets move on.

[Arttis]

Make a cannon and get someone to animate a small boulder shooting out from it with fire effects as muzzle fire.

[RandomInquisitor]

rofl ... no , sorry , no can do