106 réponses à ce sujet

[Lucy Glitter]

Dave of Canada wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

The conservatism on this board is astounding...

There are many of us who welcome the inclusion of a voiced character. Just mute the game whenever your character speaks. Or disable the sound and read the dialogue in an old-school RPG fashion. 

If I wanted voice acting for a PC, I'd play Mass Effect.

Me too.

I am now officially upset, no more following BW for me.

[Arttis]

You know inDAO

options they have seperate volume bars

voice

sound effects

and i forgot the last one.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Easy to mod if they give us a toolset, maybe.

I kinda presumed that DA2 would have one, yeah.

Toolsets require development time.  I am not assuming we'll get a toolset (unless it's basically the same toolset as DAO, in which case adapting it might not take as long).

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 10 juillet 2010 - 06:25 .

[SkittlesKat96]

Most people just hate change.
Also I'm pretty sure turning off voice would take away from the cinematic experience, imagine Commander Shepard going up to Saren and him just speaking to him like "You're a fool Shepard, a pawn from the council."
*stare*
"I will destroy you. I hate humans rarh."
*angry look and get out gun kapew pew pew*

[Sylvius the Mad]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

Also I'm pretty sure turning off voice would take away from the cinematic experience

Good.

I don't want a cinematic experience.  It's a game, not a movie.

I'm not supposed to be watching my character.  I'm supposed to be playing my character.

Sure, simply disabling the voice-over isn't an ideal solution, but one design choice necessarily requires a number of other design changes.  I'm convinced the only reason the ME team created the wheel in the first place was because they'd decided to voice Shepard, and once they'd done that they found that having Shepard read out lines you'd already read was repetitve.  And thus the wheel was born.

But the wheel (as implemented in Mass Effect) is an abomination.  Once the characteristics of the wheel became clear, the proper design choice would have been to undo the feature that had required it in the first place.  Upon seeing the wheel in action, the ME team should have immediately thrown away the PC voice-over.  Until they can find a way to implement a PC voice better than that, we should never hear one.

[Brockololly]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't want a cinematic experience.  It's a game, not a movie.
I'm not supposed to be watching my character.  I'm supposed to be playing my character.

AMEN!!!!!

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
But the wheel (as implemented in Mass Effect) is an abomination.  Once the characteristics of the wheel became clear, the proper design choice would have been to undo the feature that had required it in the first place.  Upon seeing the wheel in action, the ME team should have immediately thrown away the PC voice-over.  Until they can find a way to implement a PC voice better than that, we should never hear one.

It bothers and concerns me how so many people, including designers at BioWare seem to have fallen head over heels in love with the dialogue wheel. Its just not a good means of Role Playing- at all. It seems to be some Sacred Cow, the be all end all of RPG dialogue choice systems, when its subpar at best in actually facilitating character interaction in a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Modifié par Brockololly, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:28 .

[element eater]

@ Brockololly
i completely agree with you on both accounts the wheels iare especialy irritating when it doesnt make clear what your actualy going to say

Modifié par element eater, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:37 .

[Felfenix]

Couldn't you just mod the VA out or something? Delete the main char's voice files?

[BroBear Berbil]

Seems like an odd option to request to me. If you turn the voice off Hawke will still move his lips and make expressions.

[RunCDFirst]

Brockololly wrote...

It bothers and concerns me how so many people, including designers at BioWare seem to have fallen head over heels in love with the dialogue wheel. Its just not a good means of Role Playing- at all. It seems to be some Sacred Cow, the be all end all of RPG dialogue choice systems, when its subpar at best in actually facilitating character interaction in a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

But it's so much more efficient on consoles. Which, I think, may be the strong push for using it. The wheel was essentially designed for the controller.

Also, I don't think VO is something you can just create a toggle for. Though, I would love if one day BioWare did have a toggle for everything.

Modifié par RunCDFirst, 10 juillet 2010 - 10:42 .

[Dick Delaware]

No, you can't mod out the voice files. It doesn't work like that. Once you click on a line in Mass Effect, it might initiate a longer back-and-forth conversation that you can't control. That doesn't even take into account stuff like cutscenes.



I have no idea how you could do that. If the game has a voice-over for the PC, it's designed as such, so you can't simply remove the voice, replace the dialogue lines with text, and expect everything to be okay.



Look, there are plenty of reasons to dislike a cinematic approach or a VO for the PC, but you guys are not doing a good job at listing them. "It breaks immersion" is not a valid reason because it's very subjective.

[Monstruo696]

Why are people so narrow minded? It's a suggestion for the game that WON'T, I repeat, WON'T AFFECT YOUR GAMEPLAY.



Stop giving the OP so much **** for a simple request for those that want Hawke to remain voiceless.



This is coming from a guy that will play Hawke voiced, regardless of the options.

[alickar]

i disagree because when ur talk u do facial movements so they would have to take the facial movements out so it wouldnt look weird =more time and more money spent

[Dick Delaware]

Monstruo696 wrote...

Why are people so narrow minded? It's a suggestion for the game that WON'T, I repeat, WON'T AFFECT YOUR GAMEPLAY.

Stop giving the OP so much **** for a simple request for those that want Hawke to remain voiceless.

This is coming from a guy that will play Hawke voiced, regardless of the options.

I have no issue with people not wanting a PC with VO. That's not the problem. I'm saying that it can't be that way because the game was built with a VO in mind. This means back-and-forth conversations, cinematics, dialogue system, facial animations for the PC, etc. It was built from the ground up to accommodate this kind of game - you can't simply just stick in a dialogue tree and be done with it.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done. I'm saying it can't be done.

[alickar]

then the PC version would release later thn the 360 version..

[Monstruo696]

Dick Delaware wrote...


I have no issue with people not wanting a PC with VO. That's not the problem. I'm saying that it can't be that way because the game was built with a VO in mind. This means back-and-forth conversations, cinematics, dialogue system, facial animations for the PC, etc. It was built from the ground up to accommodate this kind of game - you can't simply just stick in a dialogue tree and be done with it.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done. I'm saying it can't be done.

Stick in a dialogue tree?  are they seriously switching the tree for the wheel?

[Felfenix]

I find the body language, emotional inflections/tons, and all that stuff that doesn't exist in say DAO or KOTOR to add a lot of emersion. I find the people fighting against it to be the same types who complained when games went into 3D, and every other change/progression/innovation to gaming ever.

[RunCDFirst]

Felfenix wrote...

I find the body language, emotional inflections/tons, and all that stuff that doesn't exist in say DAO or KOTOR to add a lot of emersion. I find the people fighting against it to be the same types who complained when games went into 3D, and every other change/progression/innovation to gaming ever.

Alright, I'll provide with one person who doesn't fight against innovation. I love 3D and a lot of the modern progression. I hate the dialogue wheel. 

[DanaScu]

XX55XX wrote...

The conservatism on this board is astounding...

There are many of us who welcome the inclusion of a voiced character. Just mute the game whenever your character speaks. Or disable the sound and read the dialogue in an old-school RPG fashion. 

Considering you don't actually know what exactly Shepard will say when you pick the hint that kind of paraphrases what he/she is going to say, you can't turn off the voice. You don't have the option to actually read the dialogue and make your choice. Even with the voice on there have been times I reloaded to redo a conversation, because what the hint said did *not* match what I wanted my Shep to say.

The "conservatism" faction on this board wanted to play a "classic" style rpg; at least that is why I bought DA:O. When I want to take a wild guess at dialogue with a character I can only choose the appearance and the first name of and run around shooting at things/blowing things up, I play ME/ME2. Especially ME2. More shooting and explosions than ME....

[Addai]

swirlwind wrote...

I would welcome the opportunity to mute the PC VO without having to mute the rest of the game. I don't know if it's technically viable, but as a request it's completely valid. A bad VO can ruin a character for me, as happened with maleShep in ME and ME2.

Female Shepard for me, and I wasn't crazy about the male voice, either.  The delivery on the romance lines makes me giggle.

I suppose you could Esc through all the PC responses, though with the dialogue wheel you're not going to really know what you just said to the NPCs?  Besides being tedious.  Though not as tedious as a voiced PC.

[Sylvius the Mad]

OnionXI wrote...





Seems like an odd option to request to
me. If you turn the voice off Hawke will still move his lips and make
expressions.

I don't really watch the cinematics.  I read the subtitles.  The presence of audio intrudes on my reading of the lines.

alickar wrote...



then the PC version would release later thn the 360 version..

Better a playable game late than an unplayable game sooner.

Addai67 wrote...

I suppose you could Esc through all the
PC responses, though with the dialogue wheel you're not going to really
know what you just said to the NPCs?  Besides being tedious.  Though
not as tedious as a voiced PC.

Though, in Mass Effect the
same key was used to skip lines as select options, so skipping ahead
always ran the risk of choosing responses without you having even seen
them.

Dick Delaware wrote...

Look, there are plenty of reasons to dislike a cinematic approach or a VO for the PC, but you guys are not doing a good job at listing them. "It breaks immersion" is not a valid reason because it's very subjective.

I've given very extensive explanations of why I dislike Mass Effect's dialogue system.  The inability to know what your character is going to say prevents you from making any detailed choices or distinctions within conversations, and stops you from doing any deep roleplaying.

When you choose one option or another in a conversation, there should be reasons behind that choice.  What is your character's immediate objective in saying that particular line?  What information is he willing to divulge?  What information is he unwilling to divugle?  Is he willing to make any promises?  To roleplay with any authenticity at all, the player needs to answer all these questions (and more) in every conversation.

Except in ME, those answers might immediately be contradicted by Shepard himself.  He might divulge information the player wanted him to keep secret.  He might not ask the question the player wanted asked.  He might not ask a question at all; the paraphrase options weren't even always the proper type of sentence -  imperative vs. declarative, for example.  And even if this line works out, the writers don't know what choices you've made, so they can't write all the options to accommodate them.  If you were choosing the full lines yourself, they wouldn't have to because you could avoid those pitfalls, but with the wheel obscuring your view of the lines, you're choosing blindly.

And then add to that the PC voice-over and cinematic presentation that makes the literal content of the lines and their delivery explicit within the game.  Without the voice-over, you're free to make sutble changes to the lines yourself.  The actual utterance is left implicit, and implicit facts are available for the player to modify on the fly to suit his character.  This is no different than early CRPGs with text-parser dialogue systems, or keyword systems like the Elder Scrolls games use.  The player is granted far more control over his character's personality, being able to make moment-to-moment decisions during conversations at levels of detail far greater than ME's dialogue wheel permits.

An example in Mass Effect would be Shepard's instruction to Joker on Feros when the colonists begin to attack the Normandy.  One of the wheel options is "Keep them away from the ship".  It's the only option that prioritises protecting the Normandy, and as the Normady is your lifeline to the universe, and a vital part of your mission (not to mention the location of most of your crew), that seems pretty important to me.  But the Shepard utters a line that ends "Gun them down if you have to."  Now that's just stupid.  Yes, the option was in the Renegade position, but that just means Shepard doesn't care about the rules that govern him and doesn't work within the system.  But that doesn't mean he's going to explicitly advocate the slaughter of civilians, and certainly not without retaining some measure of plasible deniability - unless he's an idiot.  And maybe Shepard is an idiot, but I didn't make him an idiot, so now he's clearly not my character (this example is the one that springs to mind - I'd realised Shepard wasn't my character long before this occurred).

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dick Delaware wrote...

I have no issue with people not wanting a PC with VO. That's not the problem. I'm saying that it can't be that way because the game was built with a VO in mind. This means back-and-forth conversations, cinematics, dialogue system, facial animations for the PC, etc. It was built from the ground up to accommodate this kind of game - you can't simply just stick in a dialogue tree and be done with it.

If this is true, then they're already doing this all more than once to accommodate the multiple voices (there have to be at least two, one for each gender).  Adding a third with no PC voice would be trivial (since all I'm asking for is no voice - regardless of the cinematics I would prefer no voice).  And if that extra sent of audio files is too big to fit in the console version, don't put it in the console version.  And if it's too big to put on the disc for the PC version, make it an optional patch.

Building the audio files should be no more work than building the audio files they're already planning to build.

[term8]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Dick Delaware wrote...

I have no issue with people not wanting a PC with VO. That's not the problem. I'm saying that it can't be that way because the game was built with a VO in mind. This means back-and-forth conversations, cinematics, dialogue system, facial animations for the PC, etc. It was built from the ground up to accommodate this kind of game - you can't simply just stick in a dialogue tree and be done with it.

If this is true, then they're already doing this all more than once to accommodate the multiple voices (there have to be at least two, one for each gender).  Adding a third with no PC voice would be trivial (since all I'm asking for is no voice - regardless of the cinematics I would prefer no voice).  And if that extra sent of audio files is too big to fit in the console version, don't put it in the console version.  And if it's too big to put on the disc for the PC version, make it an optional patch.

Building the audio files should be no more work than building the audio files they're already planning to build.

in your suggested scenerio would they just then use the voiced pc animations without a lip-sync? i think it is a great idea, but this would be an important thing to consider

Modifié par term8, 12 juillet 2010 - 06:44 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

term8 wrote...

in your suggested scenerio would they just then use the voiced pc animations without a lip-sync? i think it is a great idea, but this would be an important thing to consider

I'd be almost as happy leaving the lip-sync in.  It's the voice that bothers me, not the acting.

Yes, if we're stuck with the cinematic presentation (which I still think is a bad idea) then the ideal solution would be having no lip-sync at all when the PC voice is muted, but either way it's not a game-breaker for me.

[term8]

@Sylvius

right on right on, i like your willingness to compromise