140 réponses à ce sujet

[Grand_Commander13]

Bioware's games are always fun to play and are at a consistent level of quality, but none of their previous projects have really given me much heart that they're of a mind to make a world that "shapes itself around every decision you make" (to quote the DA2 page).

Redcliffe in Origins showed this brief inkling like Bioware might be waking up to the idea of making the world react to the player's choices: you can leave Redcliffe to its fate and come back later after the villagers have been slaughtered, but this is understandably sub-optimum.  Dealing with the blacksmith also shows promise, even if at its heart it's still just a second way to accomplish the militia's quest.

Unfortunately all the potential is squandered when you get the "do we sacrifice Isolde to go in now, risk a lengthy trip to the Circle, or kill Connor?" choice and find out that the trip to the Circle has no hazards for Redcliffe at all.  Even dealing with the Desire demon is just a good/evil resolution method with the potential to use Coercion to its fullest benefit.

Choices, choices everywhere and not a single decision to be made.

[Miguelitoson]

its all about the illusion my friend

[Heavenblade]

Alpha Protocol was amazing in that nearly every single decision you made had some kind of impact somewhere other than a few dialogue blurbs. It blew me away. Even the order I did things had an impact on future missions.



Frankly, I don't think that will ever be topped.

[Melness]

Completely agreed with the thread title but I'd actually expand it a bit more. Unless their promises are fullfilled exactly like they said, in a really meaningful way, I'll just forget this sequel as it would be a sacrifice of some of my favorite features of the original game (origins, different races and all that) for nothing.

[JasonPogo]

Haha wow this threat wins for bringing up Alpha Protocal. I LOVE that game.

[Grand_Commander13]

JasonPogo wrote...

Haha wow this threat wins for bringing up Alpha Protocal. I LOVE that game.

Always a pleasure. 

As for AP's choices: oh, they can certainly be topped.  It would just take another game where one of the design goals was to allow the world to react to the player's choices.  A game with a story spanning ten years certainly has room for some crazy reactivity, so my fingers are crossed there at least.

[Valmy]

Well Bioware has never made a game with that sort of impact unfortunately. There has always ever been the illusion of choice.

[JasonPogo]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

JasonPogo wrote...

Haha wow this threat wins for bringing up Alpha Protocal. I LOVE that game.

Always a pleasure. 

As for AP's choices: oh, they can certainly be topped.  It would just take another game where one of the design goals was to allow the world to react to the player's choices.  A game with a story spanning ten years certainly has room for some crazy reactivity, so my fingers are crossed there at least.

I have a feeling it will go the Fable rout.  So say at some point you side with group A rather than group B.  You will come back years later and the town will be a Utopia.  However if you had sided with group B it would be a slum.  That seems like the kind of stuff that will get put into a 10 year game span.

[DraCZeQQ]

yea agreed, i will repeat myself (again i know) but it was kinda big wtf moment when i firstly realised there was absolutly no choice in DA whatsoever ... everything was an illusion that even didnt matter at all ... and yes i love Alpha Protocol (and the red hair bard/journalist assasins are becoming kinda stereotype ... loved one tho)

[Valmy]

Man you guys have me wanting to play Alpha Protocol.

[Hulk Hsieh]

Alpha Protocol is already in the coffin, not bed.

[HoonDing]

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Choices, choices everywhere and not a single decision to be made.

Welcome to BioWare games.

[Grand_Commander13]

JasonPogo wrote...

I have a feeling it will go the Fable rout.  So say at some point you side with group A rather than group B.  You will come back years later and the town will be a Utopia.  However if you had sided with group B it would be a slum.  That seems like the kind of stuff that will get put into a 10 year game span.

And, of course, it is that thought that worries me.

[Annarl]

I too love Alpha Protocol...well except for the checkpoint save system, I hate that part. I spent a lot of time getting every ending.



It would be great if Dragon Age uses some of the concepts about decision making from that game. The Redcliffe decision regarding Connor (to go to the tower or not) seemed to be a cop out. Especially if you hadn't completed the Broken Circle...I mean how long were we gone?



This game does seem to sound like Fable but its early days and information is limited.

[DraCZeQQ]

yea exactly ... in AP if you didnt met Heck or you dont have good relation with him, no spiked drugs for Brayko ... not like Connor and not visited Wizard Tower ... you must make decision now ... with choices you made so far ...

[Sable Rhapsody]

virumor wrote...

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Choices, choices everywhere and not a single decision to be made.

Welcome to BioWare games.

Not just BioWare games, but every other RPG out there.  Every RPG ever made, even the old-fashioned greats like BG and Fallout, is built around the illusion of choice cast over tight plot rails.  Except for maybe Alpha Protocol, or arguably even KOTOR 2.  Which, like most of Obsidian's games, had wonderful ideas...and ridiculously patchy implementation.  I'm having a hard time deciding whether I prefer a more innovative game with obvious design flaws (and lots of 'em) or a less innovative and polished one like DA:O.  Polish and clean game design are critical to enjoying a game.

Basically, I'm just holding out for BioWare and Obsidian to collaborate on a project, kinda like BioWare and Black Isle back in the Infinity Engine days.  That would be a game to end all games, a singularity of RPG AWESOME.  

[HoonDing]

In AP, a person liking or disliking Thorton could make a world of difference to how the game panned out.



Compare to DA:O, where Bann What's-his-Name doesn't care if his wife or son kicked the bucket due to the Warden and helps you regardless.

[Annarl]

Steven Heck is great..."not like Wen....no sir, not like Wen at all"

[HoonDing]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

virumor wrote...

Grand_Commander13
wrote...

Choices, choices everywhere and not a single decision
to be made.

Welcome to BioWare games.

Not just BioWare games, but every other RPG out there.

There are some others - Fallout, Arcanum, VTM:B... Daggerfall.

Modifié par virumor, 09 juillet 2010 - 11:26 .

[AlanC9]

"Put Alpha Protocol to bed".... is this a new metaphor? I don't think I've ever heard this one before.

[DraCZeQQ]

well Witcher is a great RPG (apart from horrible combat system) ... and some choices really had impact on the world and plot ...

[Merci357]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

virumor wrote...

Grand_Commander13 wrote...

Choices, choices everywhere and not a single decision to be made.

Welcome to BioWare games.

Not just BioWare games, but every other RPG out there.  Every RPG ever made, even the old-fashioned greats like BG and Fallout, is built around the illusion of choice cast over tight plot rails.  Except for maybe Alpha Protocol, or arguably even KOTOR 2.  Which, like most of Obsidian's games, had wonderful ideas...and ridiculously patchy implementation.  I'm having a hard time deciding whether I prefer a more innovative game with obvious design flaws (and lots of 'em) or a less innovative and polished one like DA:O.  Polish and clean game design are critical to enjoying a game.

Basically, I'm just holding out for BioWare and Obsidian to collaborate on a project, kinda like BioWare and Black Isle back in the Infinity Engine days.  That would be a game to end all games, a singularity of RPG AWESOME.  

Well, throw Bethesda into the Bioware/Obsidian mix. Then we'd have a cohesive story with fleshed out characters, choices that are more then mere illusions to covers the plot tracks, and a free sandbox world to explore. That day is likely the end of the world

[Niten Ryu]

Heavenblade wrote...

Alpha Protocol was amazing in that nearly every single decision you made had some kind of impact somewhere other than a few dialogue blurbs. It blew me away. Even the order I did things had an impact on future missions.

Yes, almost every choice was recorded and it had some effect but in the end, those choices didn't mean much (except for roleplaying purposes). In my recent run, I only bought granades and ammo (hard / veteran difficulty) and chose the "el bastardo" route and it certainly didn't make game any harder... or much different then my previous runs. Obsidian designed game so that there's no wrong choices. Personally I dislike that kind of design philosophy. There need to be wrong choices and choices must have some kind of meaningful effect in the game world. Otherwise it's better to save some development time and just give the illusion of the choice.

[DraCZeQQ]

nah no Bethesda allowed ... i hate playing ugly avatars ... and there is NO way to create nice one in any of their games ... and sandbox world to get lost in is ... argh ... no no no Bethesda suxx ...

[GreenSoda]

Too bad AP tanked so horribly (sales wise). That one really *gave* you hard decisions to make that actually made a difference (well...for the most part).



I think BW is too afraid that the player might get frustrated if they don't make the "good" option really obvious or think the player might feel "cheated" if the seamingly good option leads to not so good results.



The whole Redcliff / Connor thing was kind of symptomatic of that. It really felt like a big cop-out.